Is it recommended to apply to ~100 programs if you're an IMG?

[centroles]

---

Members do not see this ad.

What is the most number of slots that anyone has applied to?

I applied to the programs that I was most interested in back in September and haven't gotten any interviews. A few days ago, I sent in a few more applications.

I'm wondering if I should wait three more weeks then apply to every program in the country where they had a slot or two unfilled?

Has anyone done that?

If you're a weak candidate that's an IMG, is it recommended that you apply to a hundred+ programs?

If you're a weak candidate, how many places do you get interviews at on average?

 

[ResidentMD]

What is the most number of slots that anyone has applied to?

I applied to the programs that I was most interested in back in September and haven't gotten any interviews. A few days ago, I sent in a few more applications.

I'm wondering if I should wait three more weeks then apply to every program in the country where they had a slot or two unfilled?

Has anyone done that?

If you're a weak candidate that's an IMG, is it recommended that you apply to a hundred+ programs?

If you're a weak candidate, how many places do you get interviews at on average?

I know enough people who still have not received interviews. Its still the first week of October. Chill out.

As an IMG, I think 50-100 programs, depending on your competitiveness is appropriate. I have heard people applying to 150-200 programs. I dont think its worth it. Select smartly - apply to 50-100 programs depending on your competitiveness (actually 100 is also stretching it).

 

[Law2Doc]

...
If you're a weak candidate that's an IMG, is it recommended that you apply to a hundred+ programs?

If you're a weak candidate, how many places do you get interviews at on average?

Weak candidate IMGs don't fare well in the process. How weak are we talking?

 

[mdheadache]

I am an IMG with 10+ years of clinical experience as a neurologist, research with publications, 240+ on Step 1, 270+ on Step 2, 96 on Step 3, all first attempts, no gaps in clinical activity since graduation, no visa problems. Applied to 50+ neuro programs. Only 1 interview invite so far. So, what's the way to be a stronger candidate?

 

[tetris]

I am an IMG with 10+ years of clinical experience as a neurologist, research with publications, 240+ on Step 1, 270+ on Step 2, 96 on Step 3, all first attempts, no gaps in clinical activity since graduation, no visa problems. Applied to 50+ neuro programs. Only 1 interview invite so far. So, what's the way to be a stronger candidate?

Was that clinical experience done in the US?

 

[Gentle]

Was that clinical experience done in the US?

The answer to this is probably NO.
Anyway, mdheadache, the problem might be that most places look less favorable upon those who've graduated >3yrs ago. Given ur 10yrs clinical experience I assume you graduated about 10yrs ago?

Good luck in this process...u do have some solid stats., however.

-Gentle-

 

[mdheadache]

The answer to this is probably NO.
Anyway, mdheadache, the problem might be that most places look less favorable upon those who've graduated >3yrs ago. Given ur 10yrs clinical experience I assume you graduated about 10yrs ago?

Correct. More than 10 years after graduation. Can not improve this on my application. Do not understand why it is perceived as weakness.
Also, no "hands-on" US clinical experience which is a requirement at most of the programs. And how is it at all possible without license? And "we do not offer externships/observ at our program". And observership/shadowing doesn't qualify. Double standards: "We require that you have USCE, but it is a violation to touch a patient without a license" or "Maturity/Clinical experience past graduation is a plus, but our graduation cut-off for IMGs is 2-3 years". May be it's just a waste of time for me to try to get in?
But thank you, guys for replying.

 

[WhoisJohnGalt]

Also, no "hands-on" US clinical experience which is a requirement at most of the programs. And how is it at all possible without license? And "we do not offer externships/observ at our program". And observership/shadowing doesn't qualify. Double standards: "We require that you have USCE, but it is a violation to touch a patient without a license" or "Maturity/Clinical experience past graduation is a plus, but our graduation cut-off for IMGs is 2-3 years". May be it's just a waste of time for me to try to get in?
But thank you, guys for replying.

Maybe I'm just being naive, but where do you get that you can't touch patients without a license? AMG's are involved in patient care all the way through medical school without a license... And I don't see how this can just be an IMG thing either when plenty of IMG's have US clinical experience. I don't think they were all violating the law...

 

[gutonc]

Maybe I'm just being naive, but where do you get that you can't touch patients without a license? AMG's are involved in patient care all the way through medical school without a license... And I don't see how this can just be an IMG thing either when plenty of IMG's have US clinical experience. I don't think they were all violating the law...

It's not a license that's the issue, it's malpractice insurance. Students (both AMGs and current IMGs doing approved rotations in US hospitals) are covered by this (and can therefore interact with patients). Those who have graduated are no longer students and aren't covered by malpractice, hence the "observership."

 

[mdheadache]

It's not a license that's the issue, it's malpractice insurance. Students (both AMGs and current IMGs doing approved rotations in US hospitals) are covered by this (and can therefore interact with patients). Those who have graduated are no longer students and aren't covered by malpractice, hence the "observership."

Exactly. But even being covered won't help. I was able to purchase this malpractice insurance by myself. I have been still rejected by 12 institutions offering USCE (externships) for current med students). So, I feel there is another reason behind the obvious fact that programs avoid accepting "old" foreign grads to their externships. May be they just don't have regulations for such a procedure.

 

[PirateHotel]

@ the OP

You should give us a few more details, like how many did you apply to off the bat and what level are these programs?

The thing with US-IMG is that you probably don't want to stay in the foreign country too long (as post grad training doesn't usually translate) so cast a wide net and be choosy after you get interview invites if you have the opportunity.

@ the Neurologist
I feel for you, that's a tough situation. I would recommend contacting PD / PC directly. Is there no way to challenge the certification exams instead of going through residency again? In Canada there are agreements with certain countries that will recognize a certain level of training - allowing you to challenge the exams w/o residency. only issue is Visa??

 

[sam1999]

Exactly. But even being covered won't help. I was able to purchase this malpractice insurance by myself. I have been still rejected by 12 institutions offering USCE (externships) for current med students). So, I feel there is another reason behind the obvious fact that programs avoid accepting "old" foreign grads to their externships. May be they just don't have regulations for such a procedure.

mdheadache:

You are not the only one facing this issue. There are thousands of IMG who participate in Match each year and many (I don't remember exact number but I think it is thousands) do get match. Not every one has USCE. Obseverships are better than nothing.

Whenever you apply either for externship or observership you do this experience at a hospital but you apply via medical school (in general) so there is a system which works. Once you graduate there is no medical school who is willing to help you so only way to do it ask hospital directly. Here people just don't want to go over line (unless you have some big time connections) to do something extra ordinary. As hospital lawyers advise them to do so. There is a malpractice and another issue is HIPPA. Just keep in mind it is almost very rare to impossible to arrange a externship rotation for a FMG who has already graduated. So focus on something which you can get which is observership.

Now answer to your original question is not 100 application will be better. It is smart application which matters. It includes where did you apply and how did you present yourself. I guess you have been busy for quite sometime for US residency then you could have gone to each and every website of program to see their criteria or see their residents list to get some idea or could have sent an email to ask if they entertain such applicants.

Many institutions don't take old IMGs even who have done residency in their home country not due to lack of knowledge (which is clearly demonstrated by your step scores) but due to other factors like over trained, old folks (old does not mean age but people with lots of years of experience) can be bossy to other residents. In many countries people go to medical school right after high school so you can find many doctors from there 22 or 23 when they graduate. If you graduated 10 years ago so you still might be 32 or 33 which is not a lot more compare to ave. age at graduation for US seniors in medical schools.

 

[mdheadache]

@ the Neurologist
I feel for you, that's a tough situation. I would recommend contacting PD / PC directly. Is there no way to challenge the certification exams instead of going through residency again? In Canada there are agreements with certain countries that will recognize a certain level of training - allowing you to challenge the exams w/o residency. only issue is Visa??[/QUOTE]


Thank you for your empathy and advice. Yes, I am trying to contact PDs/PCs directly. There is no way to bypass the residency training and become a licensed physician in the USA, and it is fair, I think.
And the situation in Canada is even more complicated.

 

[mdheadache]

mdheadache:

You are not the only one facing this issue. There are thousands of IMG who participate in Match each year and many (I don't remember exact number but I think it is thousands) do get match. Not every one has USCE. Obseverships are better than nothing.

Whenever you apply either for externship or observership you do this experience at a hospital but you apply via medical school (in general) so there is a system which works. Once you graduate there is no medical school who is willing to help you so only way to do it ask hospital directly. Here people just don't want to go over line (unless you have some big time connections) to do something extra ordinary. As hospital lawyers advise them to do so. There is a malpractice and another issue is HIPPA. Just keep in mind it is almost very rare to impossible to arrange a externship rotation for a FMG who has already graduated. So focus on something which you can get which is observership.

Now answer to your original question is not 100 application will be better. It is smart application which matters. It includes where did you apply and how did you present yourself. I guess you have been busy for quite sometime for US residency then you could have gone to each and every website of program to see their criteria or see their residents list to get some idea or could have sent an email to ask if they entertain such applicants.

Many institutions don't take old IMGs even who have done residency in their home country not due to lack of knowledge (which is clearly demonstrated by your step scores) but due to other factors like over trained, old folks (old does not mean age but people with lots of years of experience) can be bossy to other residents. In many countries people go to medical school right after high school so you can find many doctors from there 22 or 23 when they graduate. If you graduated 10 years ago so you still might be 32 or 33 which is not a lot more compare to ave. age at graduation for US seniors in medical schools.

Thanks. I agree with everything you mentioned. I know that my situation is not unique, and a lot of IMGs get in, which is encouraging to me. Of course, there is no benefit in applying to hundreds of programs blindly. This is not what I am doing or going to do. I applied only to places where at least I meet the requirements and I consider their "IMG policy". Unfortunately, not all the programs even bother to send a rejection via e-mail. So, now it is October already, and I can't figure out whether I am rejected by most of the programs that I have applied to or there are still some chances to get invitations. From many post in this forum I understood that I should wait at least for the mid-October before I contact programs about the status of my application. Don't want to be annoying. Also, will it be too late to apply to more programs in late-October? Especially, to IM prelim positions? Thank you for your input.

 

[sam1999]

Thanks. I agree with everything you mentioned. I know that my situation is not unique, and a lot of IMGs get in, which is encouraging to me. Of course, there is no benefit in applying to hundreds of programs blindly. This is not what I am doing or going to do. I applied only to places where at least I meet the requirements and I consider their "IMG policy". Unfortunately, not all the programs even bother to send a rejection via e-mail. So, now it is October already, and I can't figure out whether I am rejected by most of the programs that I have applied to or there are still some chances to get invitations. From many post in this forum I understood that I should wait at least for the mid-October before I contact programs about the status of my application. Don't want to be annoying. Also, will it be too late to apply to more programs in late-October? Especially, to IM prelim positions? Thank you for your input.

If you are only interested in Neurology, then applying to prelim IM make sense. Did you check Prelim box when you applied to Neurology program?

Remember you are not the only one who is applying for Neurology. Many IMGs play this trick so that they can at least get a spot which gives them hands on experience to look for spot next year. Many such residencies like Neurology etc want to know where are you going to do your 2nd year or Ist year of Neurology.

I have seen people doing Prelim at a different hospitals and in different states than their other speciality and I don't know how do they coordinate and if this is allowed or how they can be sure if they will match in both programs. May be aPD can explain how this work?

If you are going to apply to more programs then do it now. Remember if you did not match then you will be applying again next year. You have to again ask for LoR, pay fees etc. Your best chance is now as next year you will be 11 year old FMG and will have to pay this fees again. This is gamble and it hurts but it has to be done. So do it now as by mid to late Cctober most if not all invitations will be gone.

What kind of research have you been doing? Clinical, lab, translational? What was your role in research, first author or somewhere in the middle? Where did you publish some American Journals with good impact factor (do you know impact factor)?
I have seen many university programs will take old FMG with good research experience or some community/affiliated hospital will take FMG with good clinical experience. When I say research, they usually prefer to take a guy who has been doing research at US based institution or at least some one who has been doing research in collaboration with US based scientists. So you need to decide where do you fall. Be realistic, (no offense, and you should be proud of your credentials as no one take away knowledge gained) most PD just look your credential gained from outside of US but they are more interested in experience in US whether research or clinical experience.

Any way if you need to apply to more programs then do it now as this is the time and in 2 weeks it will too late for someone like you. Try to arrange at least a observership for a month now.

You have good scores, did you bother to apply some mountainous region or deep south/mid west programs?

 

[mdheadache]

If you are only interested in Neurology, then applying to prelim IM make sense. Did you check Prelim box when you applied to Neurology program?

Remember you are not the only one who is applying for Neurology. Many IMGs play this trick so that they can at least get a spot which gives them hands on experience to look for spot next year. Many such residencies like Neurology etc want to know where are you going to do your 2nd year or Ist year of Neurology.

I have seen people doing Prelim at a different hospitals and in different states than their other speciality and I don't know how do they coordinate and if this is allowed or how they can be sure if they will match in both programs. May be aPD can explain how this work?

If you are going to apply to more programs then do it now. Remember if you did not match then you will be applying again next year. You have to again ask for LoR, pay fees etc. Your best chance is now as next year you will be 11 year old FMG and will have to pay this fees again. This is gamble and it hurts but it has to be done. So do it now as by mid to late Cctober most if not all invitations will be gone.

What kind of research have you been doing? Clinical, lab, translational? What was your role in research, first author or somewhere in the middle? Where did you publish some American Journals with good impact factor (do you know impact factor)?
I have seen many university programs will take old FMG with good research experience or some community/affiliated hospital will take FMG with good clinical experience. When I say research, they usually prefer to take a guy who has been doing research at US based institution or at least some one who has been doing research in collaboration with US based scientists. So you need to decide where do you fall. Be realistic, (no offense, and you should be proud of your credentials as no one take away knowledge gained) most PD just look your credential gained from outside of US but they are more interested in experience in US whether research or clinical experience.

Any way if you need to apply to more programs then do it now as this is the time and in 2 weeks it will too late for someone like you. Try to arrange at least a observership for a month now.

You have good scores, did you bother to apply some mountainous region or deep south/mid west programs?

Yes, I think I have good understanding on how the match in case of advanced programs works. I have already applied to about 35 neuro programs which incorporate or arrange/guarantee the PGY1 prelim IM (so they are categorical - makes life a lot easier if I match), plus to about 15 advanced neuro programs where my chances to be invited for an interview are higher, but - the negative compensation is that for those I have to find PGY1 prelim IM on my own (and these spots are way more competitve than neuro itself or IM categorical). I will lose the secured advanced position if I do not match in prelim or unable to find something in scramble. Plus about 30 prelim IM programs (I indicated that I am only interested in future neuro training and not using them as just an opportunity to gain USCE). Applied widely including midwest programs, but not southern ones.

Well, my research is clinical mostly + physiology. Done in my country. Not bad, I think. Published in US journals. Attended multiple international conferences. PhD in neuroscience. First author and in the middle. Some with collaboration with US researchers.
My recent research (after relocation to US) was in US academic institution with LORs, but, honestly, this is a weak one, not impressive at all, done only for LORs, but this was the only "USCE" that I could find so far (and it is not true clinical experience that is needed).

I appreciate your input so much. Having read your reply, I sent a batch of applications to a number of programs, although I feel it is actually to late already, but anyway...Sorry for the long posts, and ...for bothering you with my stuff.

 

[medc]

it's now the middle of december.

I was wondering, mdheadache: did any other programs invite you for an interview? did you call any of the programs you applied to?