Is it THAT easy to get accepted to a pharmacy school now?

[BMBiology]

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Many C students are getting accepted:

http://mobile.sdn.net/showthread.php?t=919045

It's becoming a joke.

 

[crazybob]

We've seen a troll post like that before.

 

[BMBiology]

You want high admissions so when you graduate there's a job for you.

When I was an intern, I was telling this veteran pharmacist how the school is focusing on clinical service and soon pharmacists will be reimbursed for their service. His response was, "HAHA that's what they were pushing while I was in school 20 years ago!"

 

[BMBiology]

All of this talk about how the baby boomers and the health care law will generate jobs for pharmacists. Yeah right, they are not getting their medications at your local CVS. They are being pushed to get it through mail-orders to reduce cost either by making mail order mandatory or by forcing them to pay high copayment. Mail order. That's the direction of the pharmacy.

 

[owlegrad]

YAWN. :sleepy:

 

[WVUPharm2007]

All of this talk about how the baby boomers and the health care law will generate jobs for pharmacists. Yeah right, they are not getting their medications at your local CVS. They are being pushed to get it through mail-orders to reduce cost either by making mail order mandatory or by forcing them to pay high copayment. Mail order. That's the direction of the pharmacy.

States are starting to legislate against this. There's a bill in PA right now...

 

[BMBiology]

^^ and the way around it is to increase their copay if they get it at a local pharmacy.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

^^ and the way around it is to increase their copay if they get it at a local pharmacy.

The law in legislature addresses this, too. Each pharmacy has to be given the opportunity to meet the same contract rates as any other pharmacy. So if its a $10 copay mail order...that's what they have to charge locally.

 

[BMBiology]

If fewer people use mail order then cost will go up for employers since mail order companies are less likely to provide discounts for a smaller volume. It's a way for mail order companies to further reduce reimbursement for pharmacies.

 

[Momus]

Why they push immunizations and mtm hard in retail now... they dont make enough thru dispensing activity.

 

[VP_Pharm2004]

YAWN. :sleepy:

THAT coming from a pharmacy STUDENT... YAWN.

We'll see once you become a pharmacist..

 

[VP_Pharm2004]

Many C students are getting accepted:

http://mobile.sdn.net/showthread.php?t=919045

It's becoming a joke.

Yeah, I'm telling you. Complete *****s are getting accepted to two programs near me. That's why I stopped being a preceptor. I cannot support idiots in pharmacy schools..

 

[BMBiology]

THAT coming from a pharmacy STUDENT... YAWN.

We'll see once you become a pharmacist..

The funny thing is that this saturation will affect him more as a new grad than us.

CVS is known for not keeping its promises and for treating the new grads like dirt. Let us know how you are doing a year from now.

 

[Twentytwelve2]

If they are C average students in undergrad, then likely they will fail pharmacy school. My class lost 6 students after first semester and there may be more in the future.

My point: they get weeded out eventually but some of these C average will overachieve because they learned from past mistakes.

 

[SoylentGreen]

I don't understand the whole mail order thing. The other day I had a patient whose refill was denied because she "must use refill." I looked at her history and saw that last time we had billed them $10 for the prescription, they negotiated it down to $6.xx, and they didn't actually pay anything. How are they saving money by filling and mailing out a prescription compared to paying nothing? I know mail order is more efficient in terms of labor, but they have to bag and pay postage for everything that goes out. I don't have access to their books, or my own company's, for that matter, but it's not obvious to me that saving a few hours of labor with economies of scale is always going to beat a well-run retail pharmacy, when you consider that retail doesn't have to mail out every prescription.


I also see a lot of plans that only allow 30 day fills on even $4 drugs where they're paying nothing. The patient would actually pay less by getting it for cash for a 90 days supply for $10, but then the patient will never reach out of pocket maximums. This really doesn't benefit anyone. And making us triple our labor/supplies by filling the same thing three times, while filling 90 days supplies themselves, seems like they're sabotaging retail pharmacies.

 

[confettiflyer]

I wouldn't trust SDN, check the reported GPA tables on the PSAR (table 8 I think).

 

[zelman]

I don't understand the whole mail order thing. The other day I had a patient whose refill was denied because she "must use refill." I looked at her history and saw that last time we had billed them $10 for the prescription, they negotiated it down to $6.xx, and they didn't actually pay anything. How are they saving money by filling and mailing out a prescription compared to paying nothing? I know mail order is more efficient in terms of labor, but they have to bag and pay postage for everything that goes out. I don't have access to their books, or my own company's, for that matter, but it's not obvious to me that saving a few hours of labor with economies of scale is always going to beat a well-run retail pharmacy, when you consider that retail doesn't have to mail out every prescription.


I also see a lot of plans that only allow 30 day fills on even $4 drugs where they're paying nothing. The patient would actually pay less by getting it for cash for a 90 days supply for $10, but then the patient will never reach out of pocket maximums. This really doesn't benefit anyone. And making us triple our labor/supplies by filling the same thing three times, while filling 90 days supplies themselves, seems like they're sabotaging retail pharmacies.

Because they design their policies in general, not for each specific drug. The money they lose on HCTZ is made up for on the accompanying Valsartan Rx.

 

[902]

Many C students are getting accepted:

http://mobile.sdn.net/showthread.php?t=919045

It's becoming a joke.

Yes those grades are low but have you read the ECs ... some of them are pretty amazing, I must say. My hope is that when people get into the professional program they'll take it a lot more seriously since there's sort of a light at the end. I know my lowest grades were in 2nd and 3rd year mainly cause I was having an internal crisis about where my life was going etc etc and working part time and volunteering to get those ECs ... it becomes a lot when you get to uni. Undergrad was a horrific experience for me if I'm being honest.

 

[BMBiology]

Yes those grades are low but have you read the ECs ... some of them are pretty amazing, I must say. My hope is that when people get into the professional program they'll take it a lot more seriously since there's sort of a light at the end. I know my lowest grades were in 2nd and 3rd year mainly cause I was having an internal crisis about where my life was going etc etc and working part time and volunteering to get those ECs ... it becomes a lot when you get to uni. Undergrad was a horrific experience for me if I'm being honest.

What make their ECs so amazing? They have worked for 5 years in a pharmacy? What options did they have besides working?

The guy who started the thread got Ds for his upper division classes, not lower divisions and later showed improvement. How would do this guy do well in a professional school?

 

[902]

What make their ECs so amazing? They have worked for 5 years in a pharmacy? What options did they have besides working?

The guy who started the thread got Ds for his upper division classes, not lower divisions and later showed improvement. How would do this guy do well in a professional school?

I am not a professor so I'm not quite sure what they see in those students but sometimes people need a chance. They have to write a certification exam at the end anyway so hopefully that will weed out the inept ones ... that or they flunk out in the upper years. As far as the ECs part ... You cannot memorize experience even if they got that experience by necessity or by searching for it. The guy with the Ds will get the chance, it is up to him to keep himself there.

 

[Digsbe]

Averages are averages. To my knowledge my school's GPA average has stayed steady as far as admissions goes. I think most schools hover in between 3.3-3.6 as their average. The thing is is that you will have some 3.6+ GPAs and you will have a few below 3.0. There is some deviation from the average and there will be some low GPA success stories as well as people with 4.0s getting in.

 

[rxlea]

Don't you get bored posting this stuff?

So what. I had like a 2.72 PharmCAS gpa and was accepted to 2 "top ten" pharmacy schools. I guess I'm not fit to be a pharmacist 🙄 must be why I'm doing a PhD too 😛 Just in case I fail out of PharmD school. 😀

 

[smercer]

Don't you get bored posting this stuff?

So what. I had like a 2.72 PharmCAS gpa and was accepted to 2 "top ten" pharmacy schools. I guess I'm not fit to be a pharmacist 🙄 must be why I'm doing a PhD too 😛 Just in case I fail out of PharmD school. 😀

All this doomsday talk about Pharmacy is not going to stop the >3.0 GPA people from applying. Instead, it will drive away those who have the 4.0's and the options to do other things (PA, MD, Dentist, Etc).

 

[pharm B]

All this doomsday talk about Pharmacy is not going to stop the >3.0 GPA people from applying. Instead, it will drive away those who have the 4.0's and the options to do other things (PA, MD, Dentist, Etc).

Because each of those fields doesn't have its own issues with which to contend?

And I'll be honest, based on the people I've worked with in the Navy and as a technician/intern (not a real pharmacist, so everything I say is invalidated, etc), I can't really say that GPA is a great indicator for performance. There are some solid 4.0s in my class that I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving alone on a shift in a hospital. The 4.0 person is not a demi-God, and the 3.0 is not some rube off the street.

Any more generalizations?

 

[PharmtoCS]

I think that the overall point is not that people with low GPAs who otherwise have no business being in the pharmacy professions are accepted to schools, but rather that overall standards for admission have dropped. Those who had under a 3.0 GPA once could only get in with only under extenuating circumstances and something to really make up for it such as an excellent PCAT score, extensive work experience, etc. whereas nowadays people who have sub-3.0 GPAs seem to be getting in with fewer extracurricular activities and less experience.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using SDN Mobile

 

[PharMed2016]

I am not a professor so I'm not quite sure what they see in those students but sometimes people need a chance. They have to write a certification exam at the end anyway so hopefully that will weed out the inept ones ... that or they flunk out in the upper years. As far as the ECs part ... You cannot memorize experience even if they got that experience by necessity or by searching for it. The guy with the Ds will get the chance, it is up to him to keep himself there.

I agree that people need a chance to better themselves but I disagree that passing the "certification exam" aka the NAPLEX will weed out the inept ones. I've been told by someone long ago before going to pharmacy school that the NAPLEX was a test of minimal competency (in a school with an associated pharm program). In pharmacy school, I was told that it is the end all and be all exam (although MPJE is harder).

The reality was that it was a "test of minimal competency." What does this mean? You need to score 75/150(185) points to pass (50%), with 35 points being experimental (not counting). I honestly don't see how someone can go get through pharmacy school and fail the exam. People still do which frightens me because I wonder how many people were borderline. I actually hope that the raise the bar because as it stands now, its not much of a filter.

 

[902]

I agree that people need a chance to better themselves but I disagree that passing the "certification exam" aka the NAPLEX will weed out the inept ones. I've been told by someone long ago before going to pharmacy school that the NAPLEX was a test of minimal competency (in a school with an associated pharm program). In pharmacy school, I was told that it is the end all and be all exam (although MPJE is harder).

The reality was that it was a "test of minimal competency." What does this mean? You need to score 75/150(185) points to pass (50%), with 35 points being experimental (not counting). I honestly don't see how someone can go get through pharmacy school and fail the exam. People still do which frightens me because I wonder how many people were borderline. I actually hope that the raise the bar because as it stands now, its not much of a filter.

Do you think they should make the exam harder? I applied to Pharmacy and received an interview, crossing my fingers for that ... but I'm new and don't really know much about the certification exam. Guess I was just being hopeful ...

 

[PharMed2016]

Do you think they should make the exam harder? I applied to Pharmacy and received an interview, crossing my fingers for that ... but I'm new and don't really know much about the certification exam. Guess I was just being hopeful ...

I think with the direction that pharmacy has been trying to move itself towards and the intellectual responsibilities that come with said position and degree (doctorate), the bar should be reevaluated. Those are my feelings.

Last bit of advice, which has been echoed countless times, distinguish yourself. This is more important that ever before giving the changing job climate. Do not shoot for mediocre because at the end of the day, you may be out competed and stuck with 100k+ in loans. (my estimate for the job market 4 years from now)

 

[902]

I think with the direction that pharmacy has been trying to move itself towards and the intellectual responsibilities that come with said position and degree (doctorate), the bar should be reevaluated. Those are my feelings.

Last bit of advice, which has been echoed countless times, distinguish yourself. This is more important that ever before giving the changing job climate. Do not shoot for mediocre because at the end of the day, you may be out competed and stuck with 100k+ in loans. (my estimate for the job market 4 years from now)

Do you think undergrad is a waste of money?

I don't intend to be mediocre lol If I get in I want to aim for the top and maybe fall somewhere above mediocre.

 

[BenJammin]

The bigger the pot, the more diluted your final product is going to be. This is just common sense.

 

[Texasaggie2012]

What make their ECs so amazing? They have worked for 5 years in a pharmacy? What options did they have besides working?

The guy who started the thread got Ds for his upper division classes, not lower divisions and later showed improvement. How would do this guy do well in a professional school?

I got into a "top 10 school" with a 3.1. Yes, I had a good PCAT score, but what I really had going for me was my EC.s I've got 3 years of on and off emergency care experience, 1 year of which was/is working 9-1-1. 1+ years of working in two different pharmacy settings ( retail and hospital). On top of that, I built Aggie bonfire every year for 4 years, which consumed most weekends during the fall. And I was still doing a myriad of other volunteer activities along the way, like Big Event and Relay for Life.

The point of all this is I didn't focus on school all that much. Did it hurt me? Well as far as the number goes, yes. But I did some actual living during that time period. And I didn't receive a single waitlist/rejection. How well do I think I'll do in a professional school? I think pretty damn good. What you learn out of a textbook does not equate to how you perform as a healthcare professional. My partner and I have kicked an MD out of the room while we were running a code just because the doctor was completely inept. Doing well in school isn't everything.

I think I'll be fine in 4 years, and I think you need to sit down and have a drink.

 

[nomad339]

To be honest, I am rather bored of BMBiology's rants on the profession. If it concerns you so much why don't you lobby for changes instead of posting on SDN? Contact appropriate organizations to stop the opening of new schools, etc... Be proactive. Do something if you are unhappy instead of simply complaining about it on here. 👎

 

[Guitarmacy]

To be honest, I am rather bored of BMBiology's rants on the profession. If it concerns you so much why don't you lobby for changes instead of posting on SDN? Contact appropriate organizations to stop the opening of new schools, etc... Be proactive. Do something if you are unhappy instead of simply complaining about it on here. 👎

Yeah BM, you seem like a pretty smart person. Go out there and make a difference, you're obviously passionate about it and any change for the better is good for the profession as well as yourself. Get to it.

P.S. genuine post, no sarcasm.

 

[farmadiazepine]

States are starting to legislate against this. There's a bill in PA right now...

Working on something in NJ as well, modeling it after NY

And the growth of mail order has slowed down tremendously in the past couple of years vs. retail whose growth has grew much more in past couple of years.

 

[iamaninja]

If they are C average students in undergrad, then likely they will fail pharmacy school. My class lost 6 students after first semester and there may be more in the future.

My point: they get weeded out eventually but some of these C average will overachieve because they learned from past mistakes.

Unfortunately the naplex is a joke, and schools have an incentive to keep students enrolled. You get multiple shots at passing the naplex, the guy who studied hard and took the naplex 3 times and passed on the third is probably not who I want working behind a pharmacy counter. The combination probably doesn't come close to weeding out as many students as would be necessary based on the weakened enrollment standards. Of course there are lots of C students who will be just fine in Pharmacy school and as pharmacists, but the lower the standards go the more poor pharmacists are churned out and the bottom line is its a gamble and one that doesn't necessarily have enough real hurdles in place when you really look at it.

Out of experience I saw a bunch of people who I would never want as a pharmacist graduate and get licensed, its just getting worse now.

 

[PharMed2016]

Do you think undergrad is a waste of money?

From a purely financial perspective, there is a negative ROI on most undergraduate degrees unless they involve hard sciences or you are using it to pursue a higher level degree. This is not to say that the degree my not be worthwhile from a personal perspective.

An undergraduate degree may in fact hold you back with the amount of loans that you have to take out. I have a few friends from high school whom graduated with undergraduate degrees only to find low paying jobs. Most of their earnings goes towards paying back their loans. In fact, the friend that didn't go to college is doing better financially working at FEDEX.



Next bubble... Student Loans.

 

[BMBiology]

To be honest, I am rather bored of BMBiology's rants on the profession. If it concerns you so much why don't you lobby for changes instead of posting on SDN? Contact appropriate organizations to stop the opening of new schools, etc... Be proactive. Do something if you are unhappy instead of simply complaining about it on here. 👎

Did I just pop your bubbles?

My friend recently opened a pharmacy. He tells me he doesn't need to pay his interns because the chains are cutting back intern hours. All his interns are volunteers and he knows they are desperate because they need 1500 intern hours in order to take the board exam. He also get volunteer interns thru the school's clerkships and rotations. More students, more free labor.

Free labor hurts everyone, not just interns but pharmacists as well.

 

[PreciousRoy]

Did I just pop your bubbles?

My friend recently opened a pharmacy. He tells me he doesn't need to pay his interns because the chains are cutting back intern hours. All his interns are volunteers and he knows they are desperate because they need 1500 intern hours in order to take the board exam. He also get volunteer interns thru the school's clerkships and rotations. More students, more free labor.

Free labor hurts everyone, not just interns but pharmacists as well.

You have friends?

 

[BMBiology]

You have friends?

Here comes the bandwagon. Here's the PHD who couldn't find a job. You are a little too late to the pharmacy game.

Don't believe me how bad it is out there? Put together a RPH resume and apply to a location you want to work and see how many replies you get.

Go ahead and borrow 200-250 k in student loans. Keep on thinking you are better than your classmates. But guess what? The guy who is sitting next to you is thinking of the same thing.

 

[Digsbe]

From a purely financial perspective, there is a negative ROI on most undergraduate degrees unless they involve hard sciences or you are using it to pursue a higher level degree. This is not to say that the degree my not be worthwhile from a personal perspective.

An undergraduate degree may in fact hold you back with the amount of loans that you have to take out. I have a few friends from high school whom graduated with undergraduate degrees only to find low paying jobs. Most of their earnings goes towards paying back their loans. In fact, the friend that didn't go to college is doing better financially working at FEDEX.



Next bubble... Student Loans.

I've tried to make very careful decisions with student loans. If I'm single when I graduate I may try to work and pick up extra shifts, live on about 35k per year, and pay all my loans back in 5 years or less.

I've also flirted with the idea of medical school (after pharmacy school) and have tried to factor in loans into that equation as well if it's something I went towards. Then again, I know some students who racked up 80k+ in undergrad debt that would be worse off than me if I did both pharm and med school.

I know a few students that went through undergrad in the sciences that did not match into a graduate program (med school, pharm school, PA school, PhD, etc). There is little they can do with their degree outside of trying to obtain a higher one and they are currently working in retail or working as a lab tech somewhere. There is still risk with going into the sciences.

 

[Skrumpy]

I mailed a box of freeze-dried feces to PharmCAS and got accepted to 7 different pharmacy programs. I can't wait to start this Fall!

 

[BMBiology]

What happened to all of the pre-pharmacy students who jumped on pharmacists when they complained about not being able to find a job?

I guess they have finally accepted it. But now, they are telling themselves that they are somehow special. They are smarter and they will work harder than their classmates. They will network and they will make that 6 figure salary that they have been reading so much about.

 

[BMBiology]

I mailed a box of freeze-dried feces to PharmCAS and got accepted to 7 different pharmacy programs. I can't wait to start this Fall!

Here's the 35 year old who FINALLY got accepted to pharmacy school. You probably thought you got accepted because they finally realize how special you are and not because of low admission standards.

 

[Skrumpy]

Here's the 35 year old who FINALLY got accepted to pharmacy school. You probably thought you got accepted because they finally realize how special you are and not because of low admission standards.

If by finally you mean on my first try and just after spending 4 years to get my B.S. done, then yes I FINALLY got in.. phew! Also thanks for tacking a few years onto my age, apparently I gain 5-10 years with each post you attack me in. I'm sure in your next few derisive posts I'll mystically be a 55 year old, wheelchair bound, sufferer of Alzheimer's who just FINALLY got into pharmacy school, thanks to their now lax requirements. I hope I live long enough to finish pharmacy school so I can see how terrible you have it out in the real world.

 

[BMBiology]

^^ what took you so long? Apparently you have a lot of time on your hand. You just signed on SDN last month and already have 300+ posts?!

 

[Skrumpy]

^^ what took you so long? Apparently you have a lot of time on your hand. You just signed on SDN last month and already have 300+ posts?!

I guess I'm getting slow in my old age.. OR I was responding to a PM. Someone was asking me for advice on getting into school. The other day someone sent me a $10 amazon gift card for answering a few questions via a PM.. was a pleasant surprise. You should try being positive one of these days, you may actually stop hating your own existence.

I actually do have a lot of time on my hands ATM.. just waiting for school to start up and the only things on my plate currently are a full-time job, my commitment to big brothers/big sisters and spending time with family. Leaves me some extra time during the evenings. I'm glad my post ratio is of such great interest to you.

 

[BMBiology]

School doesn't start until the fall. You got months! Get busy working.

Tell us more about this thing called scholarship and how easy it is to get it.

 

[iamaninja]

Here's the 35 year old who FINALLY got accepted to pharmacy school. You probably thought you got accepted because they finally realize how special you are and not because of low admission standards.

BM I agree with a lot of the things you are saying with regards to the profession, but if you want to be taken seriously you have to avoid attacking the people who are just trying to work hard and achieve the goal of being a pharmacist. Its not the undergrads, the foreign grads or new grads that are the cause of the problem. Its the system popping up schools left and right. Pharmacists just have no leverage, unless we find a way to get some organization that has some clout the profession will continue to slide. Our only real factor that is potentially in our favor is population dynamics, increased insurance coverage and the increasing amount of women in the profession .

For others in this thread that think everything will be fine, all the factors in our favor are totally out of our control, and automation, centralized pharmacies, mail order and above all more pharmacists being graduated each year are still going to push to neutralize these factors. We need methods and influence to try and get more control on some factors, legislative clout is the biggest cherry I'd imagine. ACPE obviously doesn't give a ****, or can't do anything about the proliferation of PharmD mills. Maybe state boards of pharmacy or other creative measures can be used to get actual pharmacists more say in the way the profession is going. All the players in the game are fighting for their interests and pharmacists are just sitting back, keeping quite and trying to avoid losing their job or falling behind in loan payments. Worst part is because of the debt students are taking on and the increased competition for jobs its only going to get worse.

 

[Skrumpy]

School doesn't start until the fall. You got months! Get busy working.

Tell us more about this thing called scholarship and how easy it is to get it.

I'm already working 40+ hours a week for the past few months. That's enough until I go on vacation in a couple of weeks. I've been researching EC's that I want to get involved in for school. Had a meeting with the pharmacy director at my hospital today about their PDP program which I'll probably be joining (I know it's all a waste of time for the great BMBiology). Scholarships aren't difficult to get if you put some effort into them. Maybe you would have gotten more if you weren't out clubbing baby seals and stealing suckers from children.

 

[BMBiology]

BM I agree with a lot of the things you are saying with regards to the profession, but if you want to be taken seriously you have to avoid attacking the people who are just trying to work hard and achieve the goal of being a pharmacist.

You are right. Nothing against people who are working hard and trying to improve their lives and their family.