Is it this hard for everyone?

[danimjo]

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Hi, I am just finishing my first year of medical school. failing a few classes, and losing the most substantial relationship of my life. Goodbye 5 year relationship with the person I thought I would marry. I am stressed out and crying constantly. I feel like a failure in my personal life, and in my professional life. And although I love learning the stuff we're learning in school, I feel totally overwhelmed, by being asked to absorb massive amounts of information and then being tested on minutiae. I am considering taking a leave of absence, but I"m afraid that because this is so hard, once I leave I won't come back....And on top of that our professors keep saying it gets harder and harder all the time, you get into your intern year and think surely being a resident is easier, and it's not, you get into residency and think surely being an attending is easier and it's not, you get into being an attending and think surely practice is easier and its not....

And I find myself wondering, is it this hard for anyone else? Or is it really just me? And if it's so hard for me, and if its relatively easier for everyone else, maybe that's a big sign that I should bail out now?

 

[p1acebo]

Hi, I am just finishing my first year of medical school. failing a few classes, and losing the most substantial relationship of my life. Goodbye 5 year relationship with the person I thought I would marry. I am stressed out and crying constantly. I feel like a failure in my personal life, and in my professional life. And although I love learning the stuff we're learning in school, I feel totally overwhelmed, by being asked to absorb massive amounts of information and then being tested on minutiae. I am considering taking a leave of absence, but I"m afraid that because this is so hard, once I leave I won't come back....And on top of that our professors keep saying it gets harder and harder all the time, you get into your intern year and think surely being a resident is easier, and it's not, you get into residency and think surely being an attending is easier and it's not, you get into being an attending and think surely practice is easier and its not....

And I find myself wondering, is it this hard for anyone else? Or is it really just me? And if it's so hard for me, and if its relatively easier for everyone else, maybe that's a big sign that I should bail out now?

Well is your significant other being supportive if you don't mind me asking? I understand how stressful med school can be on a relationship first hand, but does he/her understand how much work load you have? That is a key factor, they need to understand that you have less time to devote to them unless they want to study with you or things of that nature.

 

[swamprat]

Hate to break it to you buddy, but it probably is just you and a few select people...even at my MD school I know of a few people that are struggling..but I have found first year very manageable. Its a lot more work than college but nothing out of control...and I think a majority of my classmates feel the same way.. some are just more neurotic about grades than others.

Maybe you need a new study strategy? I don't want to get flamed for saying this but I have a few friends at DO school and they have told me a lot of people either dropped or failed out and I get the feeling that DO schools admit people that may not necessarily be able to cut it and they also are a lot more willing to give people the boot than allopathic schools.

 

[sideways]

Hate to break it to you buddy, but it probably is just you and a few select people...even at my MD school I know of a few people that are struggling..but I have found first year very manageable. Its a lot more work than college but nothing out of control...and I think a majority of my classmates feel the same way.. some are just more neurotic about grades than others.

Maybe you need a new study strategy? I don't want to get flamed for saying this but I have a few friends at DO school and they have told me a lot of people either dropped or failed out and I get the feeling that DO schools admit people that may not necessarily be able to cut it and they also are a lot more willing to give people the boot than allopathic schools.

Patient presents with social stupidity, professional ignorance, delusions of grandeur, and persistent virginity.

DX: doxycyline.

 

[LesBois88]

And I find myself wondering, is it this hard for anyone else? Or is it really just me? And if it's so hard for me, and if its relatively easier for everyone else, maybe that's a big sign that I should bail out now?

It definitely isn't just you. Everyone struggles to some degree with the challenges (not just academic ones) that are presented. I'm an OMS-I as well and I have lost a relationship, although not a significant one. I know of others that have lost marriages, engagements, etc. and it is always difficult to see. Medicine isn't for everyone. I might recommend going back to your personal statement and seeing if those things have a deep meaning for you now- if so, keep going!

Regarding the increasing level of difficulty- I'm not sure I buy it. For me, the more clinical things get the more engaged I become. I'm hoping that will make it easier for me to succeed as time goes by.

Best of luck whatever you decide, but I think you should keep going. 👍

 

[cbrons]

I don't want to get flamed for saying this but I have a few friends at DO school and they have told me a lot of people either dropped or failed out and I get the feeling that DO schools admit people that may not necessarily be able to cut it and they also are a lot more willing to give people the boot than allopathic schools.

It could just be that they are able to cut it but the standards for throwing someone out are lower at DO schools. I have heard a few stories of them throwing people out of DO schools but few at MD schools. Nonetheless, this is just a guess but if what I am postulating is true, that would be amazing to me. I hear the old docs tell stories of showing up on the first day of M1 and being told flat-out that they will finish, they will graduate no matter what because if they lost you as a student, no one was there to take your place. I took that to mean that they would just hammer you and hammer you over and over until you finally passed certain subjects, not necessarily that they lowered the standards to meet that of the low-performing student.

 

[nlax30]

Well is your significant other being supportive if you don't mind me asking? I understand how stressful med school can be on a relationship first hand, but does he/her understand how much work load you have? That is a key factor, they need to understand that you have less time to devote to them unless they want to study with you or things of that nature.

Did you read the 2nd sentence of the OP's post?

 

[DocEspana]

Hi, I am just finishing my first year of medical school. failing a few classes, and losing the most substantial relationship of my life. Goodbye 5 year relationship with the person I thought I would marry. I am stressed out and crying constantly. I feel like a failure in my personal life, and in my professional life. And although I love learning the stuff we're learning in school, I feel totally overwhelmed, by being asked to absorb massive amounts of information and then being tested on minutiae. I am considering taking a leave of absence, but I"m afraid that because this is so hard, once I leave I won't come back....And on top of that our professors keep saying it gets harder and harder all the time, you get into your intern year and think surely being a resident is easier, and it's not, you get into residency and think surely being an attending is easier and it's not, you get into being an attending and think surely practice is easier and its not....

And I find myself wondering, is it this hard for anyone else? Or is it really just me? And if it's so hard for me, and if its relatively easier for everyone else, maybe that's a big sign that I should bail out now?

I would love to be more supportive, but it I've seen only shades of this at my school. People seems to be having real stressouts in finals week, and we have a social worker on campus to help us with this. And the students are also getting a lot of support and/or reminders that they are getting stressed out and to try to cope with it from other students. I did find first year to be a big shift, huge change in how I had to organize my life and studies, but not reaching the same level of stress youre expressing.

You should really seek counsel from a professional social worker, psychiatrist, or similar professional adept at stress management. If they understand the specific stresses of medical school all the better. It gets harder and easier at the same time every year. Something will become more demanding and yet other factors become easier. My suggestion is that you internalize that you aren't the only one who feels this way, but also admit that the intensity you are currently feeling it with is not a normal level of stress response and should be treated like you'd treat a bacterial infection: going to professionals and seeking help with destressing. It seems like something that isn't going to get better overnight and having the support of said professional can be a real life changer.

While I fully believe not everyone who gets into med school is built for the stress and demands of medical school, you can't declare yourself unfit (nor can anyone here) until you have figured out the root of your stress and tried active techniques, with the help of a therapist, to get beyond the sources of stress.

 

[nlax30]

Agree with the above. Go at least talk to a professional.

And only you are going to be able to answer the question of whether or not you are "cut out for this" and should continue. But personally, I think you should spend some time getting your mind and thought processes in order and really examine why you had trouble your first year..... study habits? Distraction from the relationship problems? Depression?

Whatever it is you owe it to yourself to get whatever issue it is under control so you can move on. I'm sure you are, but you also need to talk with the school about your options and the next steps you need to take to redo whatever courses you need to from first year.

 

[swamprat]

Patient presents with social stupidity, professional ignorance, delusions of grandeur, and persistent virginity.

DX: doxycyline.

It wasn't meant to be a negative really..

It could just be that they are able to cut it but the standards for throwing someone out are lower at DO schools. I have heard a few stories of them throwing people out of DO schools but few at MD schools. Nonetheless, this is just a guess but if what I am postulating is true, that would be amazing to me. I hear the old docs tell stories of showing up on the first day of M1 and being told flat-out that they will finish, they will graduate no matter what because if they lost you as a student, no one was there to take your place. I took that to mean that they would just hammer you and hammer you over and over until you finally passed certain subjects, not necessarily that they lowered the standards to meet that of the low-performing student.

Yeah thats what I thought too until my friend told me 2 months in that they already gave ppl the boot for failing the first block.. thats not how it works in my school they give u remediation exams.. summer classes.. even repeating first year before they give u the boot. So yeah the standards for throwing people out are def lower but I also don't know.. I think its a mix of being easily thrown out and some people that prob shouldn't be there in the first place (not everyone!)

 

[st2205]

It wasn't meant to be a negative really..



Yeah thats what I thought too until my friend told me 2 months in that they already gave ppl the boot for failing the first block.. thats not how it works in my school they give u remediation exams.. summer classes.. even repeating first year before they give u the boot. So yeah the standards for throwing people out are def lower but I also don't know.. I think its a mix of being easily thrown out and some people that prob shouldn't be there in the first place (not everyone!)

1 MD school =/= all MD schools just as 1 DO school =/= all DO schools. In fact, 1-2 students experiences, regardless of MD or DO school =/= a rule or standard. If we're going to throw around anecdotes, those I know of that have failed courses at my school have had numerous different actions taken on a case-by-case basis. They've ranged from a remediation exam, to a repeat of the course (the next year), to being thrown out. In addition, some people have failed two courses, yet still were able to continue, in contrast to one I know of that was thrown out after failing one class. There's a large amount of variance, whether it be at MD schools or DO schools. Throwing someone out is a large issue, for both the student and the school.

 

[Bacchus]

Hate to break it to you buddy, but it probably is just you and a few select people...even at my MD school I know of a few people that are struggling..but I have found first year very manageable. Its a lot more work than college but nothing out of control...and I think a majority of my classmates feel the same way.. some are just more neurotic about grades than others.

Maybe you need a new study strategy? I don't want to get flamed for saying this but I have a few friends at DO school and they have told me a lot of people either dropped or failed out and I get the feeling that DO schools admit people that may not necessarily be able to cut it and they also are a lot more willing to give people the boot than allopathic schools.

Re: Your second paragraph. It might not be the nicest, but it's true about admission policies. <-- from a DO student

 

[Gabby]

Hate to break it to you buddy, but it probably is just you and a few select people...even at my MD school I know of a few people that are struggling..but I have found first year very manageable. Its a lot more work than college but nothing out of control...and I think a majority of my classmates feel the same way.. some are just more neurotic about grades than others.

Maybe you need a new study strategy? I don't want to get flamed for saying this but I have a few friends at DO school and they have told me a lot of people either dropped or failed out and I get the feeling that DO schools admit people that may not necessarily be able to cut it and they also are a lot more willing to give people the boot than allopathic schools.

Well, I think your analysis is off the mark. There are A LOT of people who struggle first year and if your friends say they don't, they're either lying or brilliant. Also, another thing to consider is curriculum. If you're at a school where you have three lectures a day and no required labs/activities and get to sit at home all day and just review three lectures, way to go! You picked a lifestyle medical school.

You have to understand that some people are at a school that pride themselves on REQUIRED lectures/labs from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. every single day, five days a week. People in those schools are bound to be more overwhelmed and depressed. Why shouldn't they be? Their life sucks with that schedule.

OP, it isn't just you. You're not alone in this. I'd say most people feel like you do at least once or twice the first two years of med school.

 

[Gabby]

It could just be that they are able to cut it but the standards for throwing someone out are lower at DO schools. I have heard a few stories of them throwing people out of DO schools but few at MD schools.

Sadly, this is true. I know of at least one DO school that will dismiss a student for failing two classes. No summer remediation, no repeating the year. You're just done. So it's possible to fail out of a few DO schools by October of first year. This is inexcusable to me and should be changed.

 

[Gabby]

It wasn't meant to be a negative really..

Yeah thats what I thought too until my friend told me 2 months in that they already gave ppl the boot for failing the first block.. thats not how it works in my school they give u remediation exams.. summer classes.. even repeating first year before they give u the boot. So yeah the standards for throwing people out are def lower but I also don't know.. I think its a mix of being easily thrown out and some people that prob shouldn't be there in the first place (not everyone!)

You really can't make a determination about who shouldn't be there with the first block of med school. A lot of people struggle in those early days with finding a study strategy, coping with a move and being away from family/friends, and just general change of life. That's why I think it's criminal that some DO schools give up on their students so early. Those are the schools that should be avoided.

 

[Gabby]

1 MD school =/= all MD schools just as 1 DO school =/= all DO schools. In fact, 1-2 students experiences, regardless of MD or DO school =/= a rule or standard. If we're going to throw around anecdotes, those I know of that have failed courses at my school have had numerous different actions taken on a case-by-case basis. They've ranged from a remediation exam, to a repeat of the course (the next year), to being thrown out. In addition, some people have failed two courses, yet still were able to continue, in contrast to one I know of that was thrown out after failing one class. There's a large amount of variance, whether it be at MD schools or DO schools. Throwing someone out is a large issue, for both the student and the school.

Just to be clear, you think this is a good thing? A school that bases its decisions on a whim, "do we like this student or not?" is supposed to be a vote in support of your argument? Frankly, I think that school is corrupt and should be investigated. Also, if I was the student who failed one class and was dismissed while others with two failures were allowed to stay, I'd be looking into legal counsel.

 

[swamprat]

You really can't make a determination about who shouldn't be there with the first block of med school. A lot of people struggle in those early days with finding a study strategy, coping with a move and being away from family/friends, and just general change of life. That's why I think it's criminal that some DO schools give up on their students so early. Those are the schools that should be avoided.

I 100% agree with all of what you said.. but by this time you should have your sh** down and know how to study. Everyone's grades went up as the year progressed and you learned just how much to study and how things were tested etc. I'm not saying I have not been miserable and depressed this year.. I have at points when we had a lot of exams and no social life in the near future, but its never like "omg im not going to be able to do it".. because the majority of everyone does..its more like burn out/boredom that gets to me -> depression.

 

[silas2642]

Hi, I am just finishing my first year of medical school. failing a few classes, and losing the most substantial relationship of my life. Goodbye 5 year relationship with the person I thought I would marry. I am stressed out and crying constantly. I feel like a failure in my personal life, and in my professional life. And although I love learning the stuff we're learning in school, I feel totally overwhelmed, by being asked to absorb massive amounts of information and then being tested on minutiae. I am considering taking a leave of absence, but I"m afraid that because this is so hard, once I leave I won't come back....And on top of that our professors keep saying it gets harder and harder all the time, you get into your intern year and think surely being a resident is easier, and it's not, you get into residency and think surely being an attending is easier and it's not, you get into being an attending and think surely practice is easier and its not....

And I find myself wondering, is it this hard for anyone else? Or is it really just me? And if it's so hard for me, and if its relatively easier for everyone else, maybe that's a big sign that I should bail out now?

Med school does get harder with each year (the exception is 4th year), but fortunately you get better at being a med student. You learn how to study more efficiently, you figure out what is and isn't important, you learn to prioritize. Hang in there, you'll do fine.

 

[Gabby]

I 100% agree with all of what you said.. but by this time you should have your sh** down and know how to study. Everyone's grades went up as the year progressed and you learned just how much to study and how things were tested etc. I'm not saying I have not been miserable and depressed this year.. I have at points when we had a lot of exams and no social life in the near future, but its never like "omg im not going to be able to do it".. because the majority of everyone does..its more like burn out/boredom that gets to me -> depression.

I think our topics just merged. In the post you quoted, I was talking more about DO schools dismissing students too quickly (a lot faster than MD schools). But my overall point on the other is that it depends on your school and curriculum. Even if you know how to study and ace your exams, it still has to suck if you're at a school with 8-5 required attendance every day.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Hate to break it to you buddy, but it probably is just you and a few select people...even at my MD school I know of a few people that are struggling..but I have found first year very manageable. Its a lot more work than college but nothing out of control...and I think a majority of my classmates feel the same way.. some are just more neurotic about grades than others.

Maybe you need a new study strategy? I don't want to get flamed for saying this but I have a few friends at DO school and they have told me a lot of people either dropped or failed out and I get the feeling that DO schools admit people that may not necessarily be able to cut it and they also are a lot more willing to give people the boot than allopathic schools.

Nonsense.

1. Tons of people (MD and DO) struggle with the first year of medical school. I see it in my class (I'm not personally one of them and agree that first year is quite manageable) and have friends in a variety of other DO, MD, elite MD, etc, programs who say the same thing.

2. Your n = 2 'DO friends' example is weak. The attrition rates at DO schools, from what I've seen, are completely on par with those of US MD ( usually less than 5% altogether). I could be wrong, but present data before making these accusations. Additionally, look at other objective sources - 99% COMLEX pass rates (a test which is now accepted in certain ACGME residencies, especially PC fields), high USMLE pass rates, DO students who take ACGME spots above MD candidates every year, etc, etc, etc.

3. The BS you describe with admitting subpar applicants and quickly giving them the boot is stuff that happens offshore, not in legit US medical schools. Frankly, your entire post reeks of the SDN, pre-allo mindset that I assumed died the second people started MS-1 and grew the hell up.

Having said that ...

You're right that the OP could need to drastically change his/her study strategy and/or get the emotional issues in check. Sorry if it sounds blunt, but it could be true.

OP, you should probably try to stick it out and switch your game up a bit, but if it's something that isn't going to change, you should figure it out now before you get buried in student loan debt.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Yeah thats what I thought too until my friend told me 2 months in that they already gave ppl the boot for failing the first block.. thats not how it works in my school they give u remediation exams.. summer classes.. even repeating first year before they give u the boot. So yeah the standards for throwing people out are def lower but I also don't know.. I think its a mix of being easily thrown out and some people that prob shouldn't be there in the first place (not everyone!)

Again, n = 1????

There was a thread on these boards a while back about remediation, and 99% of DO programs went through the EXACT same steps you outlined above. Quit trying to act like it's some Caribbean school scam to let people in and kick them out as soon as they clearly aren't cut out for it and their check clears. However, I'm glad you were able to conclude that the standards are "definitely lower" and that some people "shouldn't be there in the first place." 🙄

 

[Gabby]

quickly giving them the boot is stuff that happens offshore, not in legit US medical schools.

The "quickly giving the boot" thing is true at some schools. Just ask BonerDO.

 

[p1acebo]

Again, n = 1????

There was a thread on these boards a while back about remediation, and 99% of DO programs went through the EXACT same steps you outlined above. Quit trying to act like it's some Caribbean school scam to let people in and kick them out as soon as they clearly aren't cut out for it and their check clears. However, I'm glad you were able to conclude that the standards are "definitely lower" and that some people "shouldn't be there in the first place." 🙄

I would have to say that my school (DO school) wants people to graduate and helps out in every way. Very few of my classmates are having issues with the course work and the ones that are have a lot on their plate (kids, finical issues, etc). Now of course where I am coming from is perhaps a small sample size as well, but my school is allowing these individuals to either re-mediate or take a year off (Not just kicking them out).

Another thing I will mention in regards to the "quick boot" is that there might be other issues with the student and misconduct that the rest of the class simply doesn't know about. You know never know and can't be 100% sure that it is just the failing of one class.

 

[Gabby]

I would have to say that my school (DO school) wants people to graduate and helps out in every way. Very few of my classmates are having issues with the course work and the ones that are have a lot on their plate (kids, finical issues, etc). Now of course where I am coming from is perhaps a small sample size as well, but my school is allowing these individuals to either re-mediate or take a year off (Not just kicking them out).

Another thing I will mention in regards to the "quick boot" is that there might be other issues with the student and misconduct that the rest of the class simply doesn't know about. You know never know and can't be 100% sure that it is just the failing of one class.

Of course you can when they have their policies written out in black and white. At the more shady schools, I agree, you can't tell why. But most schools have a remediation/dismissal policy in their student handbook and some of do dismiss students after failing two classes.

 

[JaggerPlate]

The "quickly giving the boot" thing is true at some schools. Just ask BonerDO.

Again, I can't express this n=1 business enough. If someone wants to dig up that 'afraid of remediation' err whatever thread from a while back (like a year), I think you'll find that the vast majority of DO schools utilize the same, sound processes being described here as something exclusive to US MD.

I would have to say that my school (DO school) wants people to graduate and helps out in every way. Very few of my classmates are having issues with the course work and the ones that are have a lot on their plate (kids, finical issues, etc). Now of course where I am coming from is perhaps a small sample size as well, but my school is allowing these individuals to either re-mediate or take a year off (Not just kicking them out).

Another thing I will mention in regards to the "quick boot" is that there might be other issues with the student and misconduct that the rest of the class simply doesn't know about. You know never know and can't be 100% sure that it is just the failing of one class.

Yeah, you never know the full details behind a situation. However, like you said, it looks bad for these schools to have high attrition rates, and they aren't going to pull the Caribbean BS just go get 40k out of students who never had a chance. Just not the way the game is played.

Also, Doxy ...

In hindsight, my above comments are a bit abrupt and harsh - this wasn't really my intent. I was simply trying to refute some of your more "bold" claims made above, but really have no intent of getting into a flame war about it.

My entire point is simply that US schools aren't in the business of high attrition rates or horror stories akin to those from shady Caribbean med schools. Frankly, it's bad business. From what I've heard, it's far, far more common for DO schools (just like US MD) to follow some sort of remediation process for people who fail a single class, etc. Additionally, I know my school (and I can only assume others) have individuals dedicated to helping those who are falling behind or struggling (form study plans, switch up styles, etc).

 

[cbrons]

We are all in this together. A rising tide lifts all boats.

 

[sideways]

We are all in this together. A rising tide lifts all boats.

Also, Doxy ...

In hindsight, my above comments are a bit abrupt and harsh - this wasn't really my intent. I was simply trying to refute some of your more "bold" claims made above, but really have no intent of getting into a flame war about it.

My entire point is simply that US schools aren't in the business of high attrition rates or horror stories akin to those from shady Caribbean med schools. Frankly, it's bad business. From what I've heard, it's far, far more common for DO schools (just like US MD) to follow some sort of remediation process for people who fail a single class, etc. Additionally, I know my school (and I can only assume others) have individuals dedicated to helping those who are falling behind or struggling (form study plans, switch up styles, etc).

Doxy has been a tool for a while now. I recall him whipping out his tool belt a year or so ago. As I pointed out then, and I'll point out now: his screenname is an antibiotic and he has a stethoscope for an avatar. You do the math.

 

[Gabby]

Again, I can't express this n=1 business enough. If someone wants to dig up that 'afraid of remediation' err whatever thread from a while back (like a year), I think you'll find that the vast majority of DO schools utilize the same, sound processes being described here as something exclusive to US MD.

I'm not going by n=1, as in anecdotal information heard second-hand. I'm going by what I've seen in print from two DO schools. How many DO school policies have I seen? Four. Of those four, two had those policies. So while I never said "every" DO school does that, I said that *some* do. And I stand by that.

 

[JaggerPlate]

doxy has been a tool for a while now. I recall him whipping out his tool belt a year or so ago. As i pointed out then, and i'll point out now: His screenname is an antibiotic and he has a stethoscope for an avatar. You do the math.

lolololol

 

[JaggerPlate]

How many DO school policies have I seen? Four. Of those four, two had those policies. So while I never said "every" DO school does that, I said that *some* do. And I stand by that.

I really don't want to argue just for the sake of arguing here, but are schools required to print their remediation/promotion board policies? Frankly, I could see ALL schools having these, but not all of them feeling the need to make it public knowledge.

I'd be very surprised if there was absolutely no policy in place and it was just a 'eh, you're out' sort of situation. Do you have any conclusive proof that these schools actually DON'T have a remediation policy, or simply that they don't print the bylaws for students?

Additionally, I personally don't think there is anything wrong with a case-by-case basis sort of criteria as long as there is a dedicated promotion board and review process in place (i.e. here is a board made up of 2 faculty, 2 admin, and a student; the board reviews the scenario beforehand; student in question states their case to the board; board reviews it and makes a decision based upon the information presented both subjective and objective; appeals process if necessary). I'm not sure if this is what you were arguing, but I'm going to assume that it is a case sensitive issue.

 

[Gabby]

I really don't want to argue just for the sake of arguing here, but are schools required to print their remediation/promotion board policies? Frankly, I could see ALL schools having these, but not all of them feeling the need to make it public knowledge.

Of course they're required to publish this for the students. Why wouldn't they be? Do you really think any med school can just kick a student out without any policy in place that the students had access to?

Do you have any conclusive proof that these schools actually DON'T have a remediation policy, or simply that they don't print the bylaws for students?

I can't tell what your argument is. No one said they don't have a remediation policy in place or that they don't print "bylaws" for the students. One can have both and still dismiss students after two failures. Case in point, one school allows you to remediate ONE course. On your second class failure, you're dismissed. Result? You can fail out by October of your first year of med school.

Additionally, I personally don't think there is anything wrong with a case-by-case basis sort of criteria as long as there is a dedicated promotion board and review process in place (i.e. here is a board made up of 2 faculty, 2 admin, and a student; the board reviews the scenario beforehand; student in question states their case to the board; board reviews it and makes a decision based upon the information presented both subjective and objective; appeals process if necessary). I'm not sure if this is what you were arguing, but I'm going to assume that it is a case sensitive issue.

What you're talking about is an appeals process. A policy is in place and every student who doesn't meet the policy is dismissed. They may be reinstated by an appeals committee. That isn't what the other poster said. The other poster implied there was no policy in place and that they just decided who to dismiss and even went as far as to dismiss one student for failing one class. That kind of thing reeks of corruption and unfair practices.

 

[Bostonredsox]

Hi, I am just finishing my first year of medical school. failing a few classes, and losing the most substantial relationship of my life. Goodbye 5 year relationship with the person I thought I would marry. I am stressed out and crying constantly. I feel like a failure in my personal life, and in my professional life. And although I love learning the stuff we're learning in school, I feel totally overwhelmed, by being asked to absorb massive amounts of information and then being tested on minutiae. I am considering taking a leave of absence, but I"m afraid that because this is so hard, once I leave I won't come back....And on top of that our professors keep saying it gets harder and harder all the time, you get into your intern year and think surely being a resident is easier, and it's not, you get into residency and think surely being an attending is easier and it's not, you get into being an attending and think surely practice is easier and its not....

And I find myself wondering, is it this hard for anyone else? Or is it really just me? And if it's so hard for me, and if its relatively easier for everyone else, maybe that's a big sign that I should bail out now?

I went to med school 250 miles away from my wife. I commuted home every weekend to see her and try and be there as much as possible for the birth of our 3 children, all of which were born during my 4 years of med school. I worked a part time job. I never had a commute during my rotation years of less than 70 minutes each way. We were so poor our electric got turned off mid second year. I made it through, my kids are healthy, my marriage survived, I landed a residency spot. Remember, things could always be worse. You will make it.

 

[swamprat]

Doxy has been a tool for a while now. I recall him whipping out his tool belt a year or so ago. As I pointed out then, and I'll point out now: his screenname is an antibiotic and he has a stethoscope for an avatar. You do the math.

👍👍👍👍

You can find me at home depot in the tool section.

On a serious note, anecdotal yes but still surprising. I can't believe I can add a disclaimer and everything about how I'm not talking down or anything on the subject just what I have heard and people still wana throw **** around.. sorry to add my .02.. but that is what my friend said.. he was surprised how quickly people dropped from the school.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Of course they're required to publish this for the students. Why wouldn't they be? Do you really think any med school can just kick a student out without any policy in place that the students had access to?



I can't tell what your argument is. No one said they don't have a remediation policy in place or that they don't print "bylaws" for the students. One can have both and still dismiss students after two failures. Case in point, one school allows you to remediate ONE course. On your second class failure, you're dismissed. Result? You can fail out by October of your first year of med school.



What you're talking about is an appeals process. A policy is in place and every student who doesn't meet the policy is dismissed. They may be reinstated by an appeals committee. That isn't what the other poster said. The other poster implied there was no policy in place and that they just decided who to dismiss and even went as far as to dismiss one student for failing one class. That kind of thing reeks of corruption and unfair practices.

Gabby,

You've completely lost me? I was under the impression that you reviewed the 'student handout' for bylaws for 4 DO schools and stated that 2 had NO policies regarding student dismissal. I countered by asking whether or not all 4 schools had rules and regulations, but 2 simply didn't make them public knowledge.

However, now you're making it sound like you have an issue with the fact that the remediation/dismissal standards aren't uniform??? I seriously don't know what you're trying to say anymore.

Maybe I'm confused, but could you clarify your point?

 

[swamprat]

oh you can also note my lack of knowledge for the english language.. underneath my toolbag antibiotic name but right above my dbag stethoscope avatar i spelled finals wrong and literally never changed it..altho i didn't notice i spelled it wrong for prob a year

 

[JaggerPlate]

I can't believe I can add a disclaimer and everything about how I'm not talking down or anything on the subject just what I have heard and people still wana throw **** around..

This is kind of like when someone tells a super racist joke and then throws in at the end "BUT I'm not racist."

Somehow, most people assume it's their true feelings, but they throw a disclaimer in to conform to social norms and avoid conflict.

 

[Gabby]

Gabby,

You've completely lost me? I was under the impression that you reviewed the 'student handout' for bylaws for 4 DO schools and stated that 2 had NO policies regarding student dismissal.

No, I said that of the four policies I read, two had those policies (those = dismissal after failing 2 classes). The other two had a more extensive remediation/summer remediation/year remediation policy.

However, now you're making it sound like you have an issue with the fact that the remediation/dismissal standards aren't uniform???

My issue is with how quickly some DO schools dismiss their students. All the schools don't have to have the same exact policy, but no one should fail out of med school before the end of first semester.

 

[JaggerPlate]

No, I said that of the four policies I read, two had those policies (those = dismissal after failing 2 classes). The other two had a more extensive remediation/summer remediation/year remediation policy.

Gotcha. I was confused when you said 'I read four policies, and of those four, two had policies"

My issue is with how quickly some DO schools dismiss their students. All the schools don't have to have the same exact policy, but no one should fail out of med school before the end of first semester.

Do all US MD schools have the exact same policy? I feel like schools have different administration styles, different curriculum, different rotation styles, different security rules, different dress codes, etc, so I really don't feel like having different dismissal policies is a big deal as long as the policy is well defined and known to the students.

However, I do agree that in most cases, schools should probably NOT have some sort of policy where students are dismissed based on first semester performance alone. In the same sense though, if these policies are well defined and agreed upon by the students via signing a matriculation document ... I don't know what else to say? My only real issue would be if there wasn't a policy in place at all.

Do we have any proof that there aren't US MD programs that will throw you out after failing 2 classes?

 

[Gabby]

Do all US MD schools have the exact same policy? I feel like schools have different administration styles, different curriculum, different rotation styles, different security rules, different dress codes, etc, so I really don't feel like having different dismissal policies is a big deal as long as the policy is well defined and known to the students.

Like I said, I'm not arguing they should all have the same policy. I'm saying that some policies are way too strict. It's a sink or swim mentality that, IMO, is better left to Caribbean schools.

In the same sense though, if these policies are well defined and agreed upon by the students via signing a matriculation document ... I don't know what else to say? My only real issue would be if there wasn't a policy in place at all.

There two problems with that. First, schools don't publicize their remediation/dismissal policies. It's up to students to ask to see them (which I did during interviews), so most students have no idea how easy it is to fail out at some of these schools. Second, it's a safe bet that people who make it to med school have very little experience with failing classes. The thought is probably unfathomable before starting because they have no idea what it's like or how many intelligent people can fail a med school early on because of adjustment issues.

Do we have any proof that there aren't US MD programs that will throw you out after failing 2 classes?

I can tell you that I interviewed at 5 MD schools and all 5 of them offered a chance at remediation and repeating first year. To have proof there aren't any MD programs that will throw you out after failing 2 classes, I would have had to have read the policies of every MD school. I did not.

 

[st2205]

Just to be clear, you think this is a good thing? A school that bases its decisions on a whim, "do we like this student or not?" is supposed to be a vote in support of your argument? Frankly, I think that school is corrupt and should be investigated. Also, if I was the student who failed one class and was dismissed while others with two failures were allowed to stay, I'd be looking into legal counsel.

I didn't opine as to whether it was good or bad; just stating reality. As far as case-by-case, let me present for you some scenarios. If I'm not mistaken, the remediation policy is that any course grade from 65%-69% can take a cummulative final that, if passed, will give a passing grade (70%) for the course. Anything below is up to the promotions (?) committee.

-Student fails one exam, later has a close relative die before an exam, then fails the course. Did not pass remediation exam. Goes before the board and is allowed to take it the next year.
-Student fails course by 1 point (literally), does not pass remediation exam, allowed to retake course next year.
-Student struggles in course, is contacted by school to help, offer tutoring, etc. Student turns down offers. Student fails course. Student fails remediation exam.

I'll let you make of that what you will.

 

[Gabby]

I didn't opine as to whether it was good or bad; just stating reality. As far as case-by-case, let me present for you some scenarios. If I'm not mistaken, the remediation policy is that any course grade from 65%-69% can take a cummulative final that, if passed, will give a passing grade (70%) for the course. Anything below is up to the promotions (?) committee.

-Student fails one exam, later has a close relative die before an exam, then fails the course. Did not pass remediation exam. Goes before the board and is allowed to take it the next year.
-Student fails course by 1 point (literally), does not pass remediation exam, allowed to retake course next year.
-Student struggles in course, is contacted by school to help, offer tutoring, etc. Student turns down offers. Student fails course. Student fails remediation exam.

I'll let you make of that what you will.

As I said, not having a set policy in place is shady. Even if there's nothing shady going on, it gives the impression that there is and, IMO, it opens the door for abuse/manipulation of the "case-by-case" thing.

 

[st2205]

As I said, not having a set policy in place is shady. Even if there's nothing shady going on, it gives the impression that there is and, IMO, it opens the door for abuse/manipulation of the "case-by-case" thing.

Well, I believe what I laid out was the policy (though too lazy to look it up and quite honestly don't really care to) that you can remediate a 65+ via exam and if not it's turned over to the board. Would it be awesome if everyone got to 5th year instead of getting the boot? Maybe. But again, there has only been one person kicked out in quite a while, that I'm aware. There are something like 20+ people over the past few years that I know of that went through the same thing and didn't get kicked out. I'm sure there are many more that passed the remediation exam that you'd never know about since they wouldn't be held back a year. Anyway, it's not to the school's advantage to kick anyone out or even have someone leave willingly. It provides them no benefit. In fact, it's just one less person paying tuition, especially in clinical years when there's essentially no cost to have a student.

 

[DarkHorizon]

I think Gabby is referring to CCOM and AZCOM, both will dismiss you if you failed any two classes over 2 years. I think it's a very harsh policy, IMO.

 

[patel2]

It's my understanding that at NYCOM, if you fail one course, you remediate that summer. If you fail another one at any time, you are kicked out of the school, no chance to repeat it or even the year.

I think it's less now, but there was a time a few years ago with 10% attrition

 

[christina30]

It's my understanding that at NYCOM, if you fail one course, you remediate that summer. If you fail another one at any time, you are kicked out of the school, no chance to repeat it or even the year.

I think it's less now, but there was a time a few years ago with 10% attrition

NYCOM is one of the schools she's referring to. However, I don't know about failing out by October, considering the 2nd block/course doesn't start until early October and runs through early to mid-November. (So, failing the first block come October probably wouldn't result in a dismissal.) I know it seems like I'm just splitting hairs, but her description of "kicked out by October" makes it sound much worse than it is.

 

[danimjo]

I went to med school 250 miles away from my wife. I commuted home every weekend to see her and try and be there as much as possible for the birth of our 3 children, all of which were born during my 4 years of med school. I worked a part time job. I never had a commute during my rotation years of less than 70 minutes each way. We were so poor our electric got turned off mid second year. I made it through, my kids are healthy, my marriage survived, I landed a residency spot. Remember, things could always be worse. You will make it.

Wow so the thread got hijacked a little! Thank you for the encouragement!

 

[avalon18217]

danimjo:

I just want you to know you're not alone; I know lots of people that have struggled (including me), especially first year. For most people second year is better. A lot of it has to do with an individuals' situation and you should just ignore the idiots here on their horses.

It's easy for other people to say that your significant other should be supportive (that's obvious), but it's just not that easy. My boyfriend/fiance (also of 5 yrs) started working in his chosen profession when I started 2nd yr, and he has had major stresses of his own. He can't be there as much as I need him to be (or as much as he use to be there for me) which has caused many arguments and near breakups. On top of that money has been really tight after moving expenses and car problems (my parents can't afford to help me with money), there was a death in my family 2nd yr, and I'm thousands of miles from 'home' so I couldn't go to the funeral...
To make a long story shorter, I ended up taking a leave of absence. It helped me get my relationship back in order (at least a bit) and my head on straight.

You should try not to beat yourself up over how you're doing. Despite what people may say on SND, grades are not your most important contribution to society. Anyone who has ever taken an advanced psych course knows that even standardized tests are biased. I for example, never took a multiple choice exam in undergrad except the MCAT, and I had a really hard time learning how to study for a test like that... like learning to identify what was 'testable,' and then not to get lured by 'distractors'. It is really ridiculous that they make us memorize all of this stupid s**t that in practice I could just look up. But the format isn't going to change anytime soon. So try not to take these first 2 years so personally, just because someone got 10-20 more questions right on a test won't make them a better doctor. Most of our 'real learning' will happen in our clinical years anyway. You can ask any doctor and they will tell you that your experiences during residency matter more than how well you did your first two years of medical school.

 

[Gabby]

I think Gabby is referring to CCOM and AZCOM, both will dismiss you if you failed any two classes over 2 years. I think it's a very harsh policy, IMO.

I was referring to two other schools, but knowing that CCOM and AZCOM do that too, brings the total up to four.

 

[Gabby]

NYCOM is one of the schools she's referring to. However, I don't know about failing out by October, considering the 2nd block/course doesn't start until early October and runs through early to mid-November. (So, failing the first block come October probably wouldn't result in a dismissal.) I know it seems like I'm just splitting hairs, but her description of "kicked out by October" makes it sound much worse than it is.

How is getting kicked out in mid-November any better than getting kicked out by October?

 

[DocEspana]

How is getting kicked out in mid-November any better than getting kicked out by October?

1.5 months of school is 12.5% better?