Is it true that the Medical School Dean makes the final decision to admit/reject?

[thestrugglingturtle]

Is it true that the medical school dean has the final authority to admit/reject, and that he/she can admit someone if he/she wants to, even if the others in the admissions don't really like the applicant, or vote against the applicant? I have been reading a bit here and it seems that the dean of the medical school has the ultimate authority. Does anyone know? Thanks

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[LizzyM]

Is it true that the medical school dean has the final authority to admit/reject, and that he/she can admit someone if he/she wants to, even if the others in the admissions don't really like the applicant, or vote against the applicant? I have been reading a bit here and it seems that the dean of the medical school has the ultimate authority. Does anyone know? Thanks

That is not true. The accrediting body for medical schools (LCME) requires that admission decisions be rendered by a committee made up of faculty members. If you want to see the ugly story of a decision made by the dean to override an admissions committee Google "Dean Kone" and Florida.

 

[Ismet]

Definitely not. The dean can suggest to the committee things he/she would like to see in matriculants, but the decision to invite to interview and to admit/waitlist/reject is done by the committee and can't be overridden by the dean alone.

 

[Goro]

Unfortunately, COCA lets DO school Deans have the final say if they want. Our Dean is The Final Decider.

Is it true that the medical school dean has the final authority to admit/reject, and that he/she can admit someone if he/she wants to, even if the others in the admissions don't really like the applicant, or vote against the applicant? I have been reading a bit here and it seems that the dean of the medical school has the ultimate authority. Does anyone know? Thanks

 

[gyngyn]

LCME standard 10.2:
Final Authority of Admission Committee
The final responsibility for accepting students to a medical school rests with a formally constituted admission
committee. The authority and composition of the committee and the rules for its operation, including voting
privileges and the definition of a quorum, are specified in bylaws or other medical school policies. Faculty
members constitute the majority of voting members at all meetings. The selection of individual medical
students for admission is not influenced by any political or financial factors.
(italics mine)
.

 

[thestrugglingturtle]

That is not true. The accrediting body for medical schools (LCME) requires that admission decisions be rendered by a committee made up of faculty members. If you want to see the ugly story of a decision made by the dean to override an admissions committee Google "Dean Kone" and Florida.

I know someone with low (well below average) GPA and MCAT who got into medical school (MD), his father was close friends with the dean. He only got interview from this one medical school, and matched in... Didn't even get secondary invites from other schools! I am quite sure they have informal influence too! I am close friends with this guy, wonder if that will help?

 

[thestrugglingturtle]

Unfortunately, COCA lets DO school Deans have the final say if they want. Our Dean is The Final Decider.

Wow that paves the way for nepotism and corruption! See: Admissions to selective colleges!!

 

[gyngyn]

I know someone with low (well below average) GPA and MCAT who got into medical school (MD), his father was close friends with the dean. He only got interview from this one medical school, and matched in... Didn't even get secondary invites from other schools! I am quite sure they have informal influence too! I am close friends with this guy, wonder if that will help?

The Dean is influential. H/She can't be the ultimate decision-maker, though; nor can the dean overrule a decision of the committee.

 

[LizzyM]

I know someone with low (well below average) GPA and MCAT who got into medical school (MD), his father was close friends with the dean. He only got interview from this one medical school, and matched in... Didn't even get secondary invites from other schools! I am quite sure they have informal influence too! I am close friends with this guy, wonder if that will help?

The Dean can issue an interview invite but even if the Dean does some interviews, everyone interviews with someone other than the Dean, too. Then the application and the interview reports go to the committee for a decision. We know that a GPA of 3.3 and a MCAT of 500 is high enough for someone to do well and graduate on time. I've been humbled the few times I've opposed applicants who I thought were high risk due to stats in that range only to see them graduate and match in 4 years. (These applicants were "connected" with ties to high ranking people in the university). So, someone who interviews well and is "good enough" might get in although it may seem on the surface to be "unfair".

 

[starspells]

That is not true. The accrediting body for medical schools (LCME) requires that admission decisions be rendered by a committee made up of faculty members. If you want to see the ugly story of a decision made by the dean to override an admissions committee Google "Dean Kone" and Florida.

Do you feel like the committee could be sometimes pressured by what the dean wants? For better or for worse... I mean who wants to make their dean upset after all?

 

[Goro]

Absolutely. Deans like large donations to their schools.

Do you feel like the committee could be sometimes pressured by what the dean wants? For better or for worse... I mean who wants to make their dean upset after all?

 

[LizzyM]

Do you feel like the committee could be sometimes pressured by what the dean wants? For better or for worse... I mean who wants to make their dean upset after all?

The Dean of the medical school is never in the room with the adcom except perhaps at a meeting at the beginning and/or end of the season to say "thank you for your service". The Dean of Admissions tries to be very closed mouth about why an applicant who doesn't appear to be one of our typical applicants is being interviewed. Only after a decision is made might we hear that" someone" was very interested in this applicant or that there had been quite a few phone calls about an applicant from "upstairs". The point is that the adcom is shielded as much as possible from pressure. Of course, in some cases, we recognize the applicant's name and address and parent's name and know that this is a VIP's kid.

 

[aldol16]

That is not true. The accrediting body for medical schools (LCME) requires that admission decisions be rendered by a committee made up of faculty members. If you want to see the ugly story of a decision made by the dean to override an admissions committee Google "Dean Kone" and Florida.

Committee made up of a majority of faculty members. To my knowledge, medical students often sit on these committees and have full voting rights.

 

[starspells]

Committee made up of a majority of faculty members. To my knowledge, medical students often sit on these committees and have full voting rights.

Really? I definitely get why their opinion is valuable but are their votes "weighted" as heavily as a faculty member? I am skeptical.

 

[aldol16]

Really? I definitely get why their opinion is valuable but are their votes "weighted" as heavily as a faculty member? I am skeptical.

Yeah. In most cases when you get a student interviewer, their vote counts just as much as any faculty member - they are part of the admissions committee. So that's why you shouldn't relax or cuss in front of a student interviewer - treat them just as you would a faculty interviewer.

 

[starspells]

Yeah. In most cases when you get a student interviewer, their vote counts just as much as any faculty member - they are part of the admissions committee. So that's why you shouldn't relax or cuss in front of a student interviewer - treat them just as you would a faculty interviewer.

Interesting, thanks!

 

[OchemOficionado]

Damn. I was really hoping that having (coincidentally) shadowed the dean of admissions of my dream school would end with them putting in a good word oh well, as long as ONE Med school says yes I'll be a happy camper.

 

[LizzyM]

It varies by school. At some schools the interviewers are not voting members of the committee. At some schools there are reviewers who look at the entire application, including notes made by the interviewers, and grade the applicants, the "grades" from a group of reviewers are averaged and then a separate admissions committee makes the final decisions. Medical students may be interviewers and reviewers but not have a seat at the table where final decisions are made. There might be >100 different ways to configure a committee.

 

[Ismet]

Really? I definitely get why their opinion is valuable but are their votes "weighted" as heavily as a faculty member? I am skeptical.

At my med school, the student vote was equal in weight to the faculty vote. Student interview was also equal in weight to faculty interview.

Yeah. In most cases when you get a student interviewer, their vote counts just as much as any faculty member - they are part of the admissions committee. So that's why you shouldn't relax or cuss in front of a student interviewer - treat them just as you would a faculty interviewer.

Not necessarily. You should of course treat a student interviewer with the same respect you would a faculty interviewer, but a student interviewer may or may not be on the admissions committee. They are volunteering their time to interview and send a report to the admissions committee.

 

[Goro]

Identical to my school.

At my med school, the student vote was equal in weight to the faculty vote. Student interview was also equal in weight to faculty interview.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

LCME standard 10.2:
Final Authority of Admission Committee
The final responsibility for accepting students to a medical school rests with a formally constituted admission
committee. The authority and composition of the committee and the rules for its operation, including voting
privileges and the definition of a quorum, are specified in bylaws or other medical school policies. Faculty
members constitute the majority of voting members at all meetings. The selection of individual medical
students for admission is not influenced by any political or financial factors.
(italics mine)
.

This gives a lot of leeway to "bylaws," though...

 

[gyngyn]

This gives a lot of leeway to "bylaws," though...

If the LCME visits and the bylaws appear to give the Dean final authority, a citation will be issued.
If anyone on the committee asserts coercion, there will also be trouble.
That said, the Dean does have a lot of power...

 

[Yorick]

Do votes end up being typically unanimous/largely to one side (admit/waitlist/deny) or do you get decisions decided by one or a few votes most committee meetings?

 

[gyngyn]

Do votes end up being typically unanimous/largely to one side (admit/waitlist/deny) or do you get decisions decided by one or a few votes most committee meetings?

At my school, the majority are unanimous votes when the meeting starts. After discussion, the consensus goes up to about 2/3's.

 

[Goro]

Most accepts are unanimous when coming from the interviewers. These are rarely discussed. An example might be a candidate who bad-mouthed the school on a tour, and this was brought up by the student rep.

When there is discord among interviewer votes, the Adcom then makes the decision, and then ours are rarely unanimous. Usually it's an egregious IA that then earns a unanimous vote for reject or low wait list.

Do votes end up being typically unanimous/largely to one side (admit/waitlist/deny) or do you get decisions decided by one or a few votes most committee meetings?

 

[starspells]

Damn. I was really hoping that having (coincidentally) shadowed the dean of admissions of my dream school would end with them putting in a good word oh well, as long as ONE Med school says yes I'll be a happy camper.

I can only imagine how pissed a Dean might be if, for example, their premed kid doesn't get into their own school.

 

[gyngyn]

I can only imagine how pissed a Dean might be if, for example, their premed kid doesn't get into their own school.

All faculty members are mad as heck when their children are waitlisted.

 

[Chromium Surfer]

The Dean can issue an interview invite but even if the Dean does some interviews, everyone interviews with someone other than the Dean, too. Then the application and the interview reports go to the committee for a decision. We know that a GPA of 3.3 and a MCAT of 500 is high enough for someone to do well and graduate on time. I've been humbled the few times I've opposed applicants who I thought were high risk due to stats in that range only to see them graduate and match in 4 years. (These applicants were "connected" with ties to high ranking people in the university). So, someone who interviews well and is "good enough" might get in although it may seem on the surface to be "unfair".

I have seen that benchmark of stats thrown around a lot, do you by chance know where I can find that data on this? I don't mean this as a sign of disrespect or an an attempt to challenge your words. I am just genuinely curious about how students at various MCAT and GPA levels perform after being accepted into medicals school.

If the LCME visits and the bylaws appear to give the Dean final authority, a citation will be issued.
If anyone on the committee asserts coercion, there will also be trouble.
That said, the Dean does have a lot of power...

If you do not mind me asking, how is the great power of the admissions dean expressed in practice? It seems that the LCME regulates the use of power fairly tightly.

 

[gyngyn]

If you do not mind me asking, how is the great power of the admissions dean expressed in practice? It seems that the LCME regulates the use of power fairly tightly.

I was referring (in my post) to the Dean.
The admissions dean's responsibility is to achieve the goals of the Dean while fulfilling the school's mission.
This can take many forms. Instructions to screeners and committee members are examples.

 

[Chromium Surfer]

I was referring (in my post) to the Dean.
The admission's dean's responsibility is to achieve the goals of the Dean while fulfilling the school's mission.
This can take many forms. Instructions to screeners and committee members are examples.

Thank you for the clarification!

 

[starspells]

All faculty members are mad as heck when their children are waitlisted.

I bet!!! I understand though

I have friends whose parents are like Assistant or Associate Clinical Professor of XYZ or w/e at the various med schools in my state (I think they teach med students and residents??), do you think having parents on faculty would help secure an interview?

 

[gyngyn]

I bet!!! I understand though

I have friends whose parents are like Assistant or Associate Clinical Professor of XYZ or w/e at the various med schools in my state (I think they teach med students and residents??), do you think having parents on faculty would help secure an interview?

If they are a good applicant, yes. Even if not, they will often get a "courtesy" interview.

 

[osckey]

Is it true that the medical school dean has the final authority to admit/reject, and that he/she can admit someone if he/she wants to, even if the others in the admissions don't really like the applicant, or vote against the applicant? I have been reading a bit here and it seems that the dean of the medical school has the ultimate authority. Does anyone know? Thanks

As Lizzy pointed out, it's a big no-no to give a dean the final authority. It leads to corruption in the acceptance process, which I'm sure still exists in some capacity but certainly not in the degree it would be if the legislation wasn't there.

 

[freak7]

If anyone on the committee asserts coercion, there will also be trouble.
That said, the Dean does have a lot of power...

@gyngyn if you're being held under duress blink twice.

 

[aalamruad]

Most accepts are unanimous when coming from the interviewers. These are rarely discussed. An example might be a candidate who bad-mouthed the school on a tour, and this was brought up by the student rep.

When there is discord among interviewer votes, the Adcom then makes the decision, and then ours are rarely unanimous. Usually it's an egregious IA that then earns a unanimous vote for reject or low wait list.

I knew I couldn't trust those student tour guides when they told us they had no input on admissions decisions

 

[LizzyM]

Most accepts are unanimous when coming from the interviewers. These are rarely discussed. An example might be a candidate who bad-mouthed the school on a tour, and this was brought up by the student rep.

When there is discord among interviewer votes, the Adcom then makes the decision, and then ours are rarely unanimous. Usually it's an egregious IA that then earns a unanimous vote for reject or low wait list.

I knew I couldn't trust those student tour guides when they told us they had no input on admissions decisions

Trust no one. Be on your best behavior from the time you pull into the parking lot or arrive at the curb until you leave and are no longer on school/hospital property. Rude and callous behavior toward lowly staff members has sometimes been reported by the staff member or by a faculty member or high ranking member of the administration who happens to be passing by.

I haven't seen anyone get rejected for bad-mouthing the school on the tour but treating the people serving the food like servants or joking around during a time that is supposed to be serious can hurt you.

 

[aldol16]

Hopkins is known to have such reporting systems for interviewee behavior.

 

[starspells]

If they are a good applicant, yes. Even if not, they will often get a "courtesy" interview.

It still seems like a real privilege to have a parent as faculty. If your parents are friends with the adcomm members they could help look over your application or essays maybe. I couldn't ask that obv but faculty children probably could if they wanted.