Iampredent

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Do u guys think its unethical to use live patients during the boards.....no other professional school uses real patients except dentistry....do u think that is unethical?
 

Lopyswine

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Do u guys think its unethical to use live patients during the boards.....no other professional school uses real patients except dentistry....do u think that is unethical?

wow. you're amazing.

so you what's your opinion on the YEARS treatment a student will provide while in school... is that ethical?

you make no sense.
 

bipolardoc

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wow. you're amazing.

so you what's your opinion on the YEARS treatment a student will provide while in school... is that ethical?

you make no sense.
lol, yes its ethical, its training, you cant compare to med training, it ethical that my psyc i am seeing now is a PGYII and hence only a student himself and I am his live subject, I am ok with it, its way cheaper then the experienced ones. Look, the only way you can learn dentistry is on patients, what else you going to do, use dogs? And the worse case senerio, you screw up a filling or something, patient doesnt die. also you are being watched and monitered.
 
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MeAgain

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Umm, I think what predent is trying to ask is if there is an unfair advantage to some based solely on patient selection. A lot of patients are completely out of your control- what type of patient you obtain, how much you pay them, if they are going to show up on the test day or not.
 

LatPterygoid

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What is right and wrong is determined by the majority population. In this case, you have the authority of the field and the entirety of the student population doing something and being told to do something. Thus, it's not unethical.
 

MeAgain

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Maybe you should rewrite the question, Iampredent. These people are brutal. I get what you are trying to ask...
 

cl24uw06

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This is actually a legitimate debate the predent has raised; and in-fact is being debated currently on a national level. The question has nothing to do with the fact the we are dental students and are in effect practicing, but has to do with the fact that treatment is often delayed on these board patients in order to have a perfect class II lesion to treat or the right amount of calculus. Normally a patient comes in needing treatment and we get on it right away, but as graduation nears students will search for patients with certain requirements and ask them to wait on treatment so they can be a boards patients, promising them free treatment and often a monetary reward, in the meantime their condition worsens. This is just one of the reasons why some are pushing for a mandatory PGY-1 (post graduate year one) or 5th year in dental school. New York has instituted this in lieu of board certification. Just something to think about.
 

kappa505

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This is actually a legitimate debate the predent has raised; and in-fact is being debated currently on a national level. The question has nothing to do with the fact the we are dental students and are in effect practicing, but has to do with the fact that treatment is often delayed on these board patients in order to have a perfect class II lesion to treat or the right amount of calculus. Normally a patient comes in needing treatment and we get on it right away, but as graduation nears students will search for patients with certain requirements and ask them to wait on treatment so they can be a boards patients, promising them free treatment and often a monetary reward, in the meantime their condition worsens. This is just one of the reasons why some are pushing for a mandatory PGY-1 (post graduate year one) or 5th year in dental school. New York has instituted this in lieu of board certification. Just something to think about.

I don't see how postponing treatment is a reason for another year. Please explain.
 

djeffreyt

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This is totally a legitimate question. Whenever portofolio licensure and PGY1 arguments and questions are brought up among people in ADEA and ASDA, this question is raised a lot. I'm not sure Predent is asking whether the variation in patients in unethical in that it causes problems for certain students...but maybe.

Personally, I don't think it is unethical to work on real patients. We work on patients under similar supervision day in and day out all the time. I don't particularly think the current form of state licensure used by most states and regions is the best method however.
 

Lopyswine

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and you do?


the OP used the word "live" patients. He/she obviously is asking about the ethics of a student treating living human patient. He/she mentions nothing about the fairness of patient selection or the ethics of delayed treatment. Everything mentioned in the above posts are inferred.

Its hard to infer all those other factors from the wording of the OP's original question, because it doesn't make sense. How is it unethical to have our licensing tests be performed on real patients when by that time we will have already been treating patients for 2, maybe 3 years.
 

Lopyswine

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This is actually a legitimate debate the predent has raised; and in-fact is being debated currently on a national level. The question has nothing to do with the fact the we are dental students and are in effect practicing, but has to do with the fact that treatment is often delayed on these board patients in order to have a perfect class II lesion to treat or the right amount of calculus. Normally a patient comes in needing treatment and we get on it right away, but as graduation nears students will search for patients with certain requirements and ask them to wait on treatment so they can be a boards patients, promising them free treatment and often a monetary reward, in the meantime their condition worsens. This is just one of the reasons why some are pushing for a mandatory PGY-1 (post graduate year one) or 5th year in dental school. New York has instituted this in lieu of board certification. Just something to think about.

Delaying treatment is the choice of patient, correct? Also, I would hope that by the time a student is in that situation he or she can weigh treatment delay vs patient cost.

Also, our school has talked alot about the mandatory 5th year. I have never heard them mention "delayed treatment" for boards patients as a reason. The main reason we have been told is access to care issues in dentistry. The proponents of the 5th year feel that forcing students to serve an entirely clinical 5th year would drastically increase the amount of care offered to persons of low income.

Personally I think its a bad idea to force us to do that. Its not fair that we will go into crazy debt and take out another year in loans to be slaves to the government. If they truly want to make it mandatory than we should receive small stipends or loan forgiveness for the year.
 

tinman831

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It's a little hard to infer directly what the OP is trying to ask... Maybe you could rephrase your question a little better.

On another note, what patient in their right mind would consent to a delay in treatment for months/year just because the student dentist wants to use them for their board exam? Delaying treatment for a patient is always unethical, unless the patient won't pay or is medically compromised such as to hinder treatment. Yet, it happens every year all across the country. Ideal lesions don't fall on ones lap exactly around the time board exams are to take place.
 

Lopyswine

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It's a little hard to infer directly what the OP is trying to ask... Maybe you could rephrase your question a little better.

On another note, what patient in their right mind would consent to a delay in treatment for months/year just because the student dentist wants to use them for their board exam? Delaying treatment for a patient is always unethical, unless the patient won't pay or is medically compromised such as to hinder treatment. Yet, it happens every year all across the country. Ideal lesions don't fall on ones lap exactly around the time board exams are to take place.

in the end it will always be the patients choice. The student offers the proposition of waiting 2-4 months for free care, explains the risks involved, and the patient decides what to do.

How is this unethical????

The only way i can see this as unethical is if the student understates the risks involved or pressures the patient. However, to do that would be unprofessional and go against our code.
 

JamesOSU

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It's a little hard to infer directly what the OP is trying to ask... Maybe you could rephrase your question a little better.

On another note, what patient in their right mind would consent to a delay in treatment for months/year just because the student dentist wants to use them for their board exam? Delaying treatment for a patient is always unethical, unless the patient won't pay or is medically compromised such as to hinder treatment. Yet, it happens every year all across the country. Ideal lesions don't fall on ones lap exactly around the time board exams are to take place.

How often do you find what you need? And how long is the average wait? Do students compete over getting the patient for their boards, and what happens if/when the patient is a no-show? I've heard that is why students often offer to compensate the patient passed the cost of the treatment.
 

ou_jay

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How often do you find what you need? And how long is the average wait? Do students compete over getting the patient for their boards, and what happens if/when the patient is a no-show? I've heard that is why students often offer to compensate the patient passed the cost of the treatment.

Students usually start looking for board patients around the beginning of senior year. A board lesion could wait anywhere from 0-12 months depending on when you find it.

Competition over getting the perfect patient is huge. If your patient no-shows you lose points. If your back-up patient no-shows you fail. If your patient has a perfect lesion, almost anyone could pass the exam. If your patient has a lesion that will require some clinical judgment during treatment then even the greatest hand god will have a good chance of failing.

All these factors create a lot of competition for patient. Not only do you need to find a patient, but you need to find an ideal patient. Then you also need a backup in case that ideal patient gets sick or something.
 
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