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Like the title asks, what do you guys think? Any pre-pharm/pharm students or actual pharmacists have any say? I'd love to hear it!
Is it worth becoming a pharmacist anymore?
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no, not anymore. It's totally not worth it when considering those debt after graduation. In the past, I mean 20 yrs or more years ago, it was very worth it. The tuition was reasonable,no debt upon graduation, and jobs were everywhere. New Graduates with no experience were able to pick and choose with sign on bonus and the locations were very desirable . There were no such thing as residency requirement or pharm D ..
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I think so. I'm about to graduate and have had the time of my life in pharmacy school, and the job market has been good to me as well. I think if you really see yourself as a pharmacist and really enjoy working in a pharmacy, go for it.
I am about to start my dream job for my dream employer, making more money than I dreamed possible in college. I do have ~320k of loan debt, but looking back, I would do It all over again in a heartbeat.
If you go for it, do so with open eyes. Get an angle on a job before P1 and stick carefully to your desired career track/goals. Have backup plans, work hard. It isn't all gravy, as you can see on these forums. Jobs are hard to get and you won't likely be able to begin your career in a city.
Long story short: pharmacy is still viable as an amazing career, but definitely think twice about whether it is a good fit for you. The days of headhunters and sign on bonuses are over.
Hth
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I really don't understand all the depressing comments. Is the job market hard? Yes but so is every other job in America. If you're going into a profession for the sole reason that you'll be guaranteed a job then you're probably someone I would avoid trying to hire.
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What is your dream job? If you did land a great job consider yourself lucky. I would still be very worried with a ~320k debt load. My debt load was half of that and it has been a major financial strain at times (and I had a low interest rate of 3.25% on many of loans). The 10-year loan payment on ~320k at 6.8% is $3682.00 per month. That is pretty high. Hopefully you can get into a public loan forgiveness program, otherwise you will be financially strained for a long time.
Pharmacy is really tough out there, and I'm not sure that pharmacy is worth it anymore. Here are a few reasons why:
1. Mandatory health insurance: I didn't have to deal with this, but one student told me his school forces him to pay ~$4500 a year for health insurance (300/month plus additional clinic fees of $900/year). If school has mandatory vision and dental, these prices can be even higher. When I was in school I never paid for than $50/month for high deductible insurance.
2. No more subsidized loans. Non-subsidized loans add significantly to school cost over the course of 4 years.
3. The never-ending residency platform. Doing a residency not only decreases income for 1-2 years, it is also 2-more years that interest is accumulating on student loans. Many of us were lucky to get into non-retail jobs without residency, but those days are almost gone. Even when one finishes residency they may still struggle getting a job. This is especially worrisome given the glut of plarmacists graduating in the next couple years.
4. Obama-care. No one knows what the effect of Obama-care will be on pharmacy. But many pharmacies expect declining re-inbursements. This is a wild-card that could have devastating ramnifications on our field. Many borderline pharmacy chains such as Target could end up closing their doors.
I would investigate other fields such as computer science, engineering, PA, business, or nursing. Pharmacy is in a lot of trouble right now and I don't know that we will be able to get out of self-created problems anytime soon.
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It is a risk/reward scenario. Is the amount of student loan debt accumulated worth the cost of a job with nice pay but limited job prospects? If the loan debt was low and the interest rate wasn't so high I would say that pharmacy is still a great bet. But factor in the fact that most of us are going to graduate with over $150k in debt and only have a monthly net take home of $6k. Typical 10-year loan payments in the $150-200k range will be in the $1800-2500/month range. This kind of debt is very hard to stomach when jobs are so hard to come by.
Yes, but most other jobs don't require seven years of schooling at hugely inflated prices, two years of residency and an internship before starting. The PharmD is just a tool for the schools to make money. All this clinical baloney the schools feed you is a bunch of crap too, if you want a clinical role become an MD. 7 years+ to basically count tablets sucks balls. Stay clear of pharmacy. You obviously have been living in a cave for the last 5 years if you haven't seen the rise in number of pharmacy schools and the decrease in salary as a consequence abided about these boards.
TBH newly qualifieds are pretty much in demand at the mo as the multiples are trying to fire all the >45y/o's and replace them with cheaper, no benefits newly qualifieds. Experience does not count in this god forsaken career, who ever is prepared to undercut the most will be the ones in demand and that is the newly qualified. This will only last a few years though until a class action by fired pharmacists gets upheld in the courts against the large multiples citing age discrimination. The large chains will then not be able to fire the oldies and the zombie army of new recruits trudging out of the pharmacy schools will have nowhere to go adding to the saturation.
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No, it's not worth it. There are way better jobs you can look at now. The golden age of pharmacy is completely over and whatever little of it that carried over in the past 5-7 years is completely dead now.
It's no worth it to graduate with 200k in loans with little chance of finding a good paying job that you will actually enjoy.
To graduate with 320k in loans, you will be 'poor' for a very long time.
I think one of the only reasons I did well was because I only graduated with 40k in loans and graduated early enough, being one of the last graduating classes to actually get offered sign on bonuses and what not. Otherwise if it was now, I would have said to myself 'wtf am I doing in this field'
It's no worth it to graduate with 200k in loans with little chance of finding a good paying job that you will actually enjoy.
To graduate with 320k in loans, you will be 'poor' for a very long time.
I think one of the only reasons I did well was because I only graduated with 40k in loans and graduated early enough, being one of the last graduating classes to actually get offered sign on bonuses and what not. Otherwise if it was now, I would have said to myself 'wtf am I doing in this field'
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Just take a look at the pre pharmacy forum. You will see career techs and students with a 2.6 GPA are finally getting accepted to a pharmacy school.
If pharmacy is a good career option, why have admission standards dropped so much?
Would you still do pharmacy if pharmacists are making 80 k year? With 200 k in student debt? Have to move to the boonies for work? If you answered no to any of those questions then I wouldn't do pharmacy.
If pharmacy is a good career option, why have admission standards dropped so much?
Would you still do pharmacy if pharmacists are making 80 k year? With 200 k in student debt? Have to move to the boonies for work? If you answered no to any of those questions then I wouldn't do pharmacy.
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I plugged in the 320K into this calculator: http://mappingyourfuture.org/paying/standardcalculator.htm Besides the 3682/mo it says the minimum annual salary to handle these payments is....drumroll....$552,385. Holy crap! The one thing I can tell you about my 16 year odyssey in the field is that things change fast. The independent pharmacy gets bought out, new management cuts to the bone, and all of a sudden your dream situation has turned into a sh*tstorm. But your 3600 monthly nut still has to be cracked. Ten years ago you could just say "see ya" and get another gig with a signing bonus to boot. Not anymore. Now you're trapped.
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Just thinking of what's been done to you absolutely frosts my butt. Where were the adults in this underwriting process? Why were you allowed to incur such an odious debt? Who in their right mind would loan you such a disproprtionate amount to your prospective income? This is syndicated criminal conduct on the part of school and loan originators.
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have you guys ever shadowed a pharmacist before?
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I tell people not to go. Things are only going to get worse, lower starting salaries. Those new pharmacy schools should hire us for all the damage they've done to the job market.
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any pharmacists here that like their jobs?
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Thing is, the few jobs there are, you don't have a choice usually who your boss is or what type of pharmacy you want to practice. I spent 2 years in retail thousands of miles away from home, was only job I could get. Only to be cut sometime later for bullsht reasons, probably because they could get new grads for cheaper.
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Starting salaries have increased in many areas. Where were the mid to upper $60s offers 5 years ago?
And my dream job ? Working retail pharmacy outside of the big 3 in the city I dreamed of moving to 6 years ago, full time > $60/hr
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Grumps, you of all people should realize that these kinds of student loans are meaningless. I plan to pay around 100k NPV total on those notes.
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Good for you that your dreams came true. Not everyone's dreams can come true. I lost my house, relationship, and now my credit over being a pharmacist. Haven't paid my student loans in over a year. I don't know if I will ever be able to repay them.
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Pharmacy is not an easy career because students graduate with loans >150k, lack of jobs, lack of respect by the public who thinks you just throw pills in a bottle, having to work weekends and nights (no 9-5 unless you are a lucky sob), and the constant stress of retail that most of us work in. I do see it getting worse as retail companies have severely cut down on raises and I have not gotten any bonus this year as many others haven't. The person here who said they have 320k in loans then there is no way you can do a 10 year plan nor would you want to, 25 year plan with loan forgiveness might be your only logical step.
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We don't know how loans will be handled post-dollar revaluation. There have been historical cases where debt instruments were revalued to compensate for the currency reset. Yeah, the adage of paying back in cheaper dollars may not pan out if old debts are pegged to gold. It's best not to be a creditor nor a debtor in a debt deflation. There is a huge discontinuity coming before the end of the decade, so NPV calculations can have very large error bars.
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is retail pharm really that bad?
also i know this may be hard to picture but: ignoring student loans and/or trying to find a job.. is being a pharmacist an enjoyable career?
also i know this may be hard to picture but: ignoring student loans and/or trying to find a job.. is being a pharmacist an enjoyable career?
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bump...
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Good article from another royally screwed profession:
The key to this article is the following snip it below. 93A is the state of MA Consumer Protection statute which is being used as the basis to litigate cases against the schools. This case is still pending outcome and if found in favor of could very well set a precedent. If you are or if you may be buried by debt you will want to get familiar. Kids don't have the ability to adequately determine ROI and investment risk. The bogus BLS is abused by the schools. Read the article.
Deception
Given courts’ general unwillingness to interfere in university-student disputes involving grades, curricula, and discipline, the strongest 93A claims against colleges and universities may involve allegations of deceptive marketing. In an enforcement action filed in April 2013 against Sullivan & Cogliano Training Centers, a for-profit school based in Brockton, the Massachusetts Attorney General alleged that the school misrepresented, among other things, the employment opportunities available in students’ field of study and percentages of students successfully placed in those fields.[5]
Given courts’ general unwillingness to interfere in university-student disputes involving grades, curricula, and discipline, the strongest 93A claims against colleges and universities may involve allegations of deceptive marketing. In an enforcement action filed in April 2013 against Sullivan & Cogliano Training Centers, a for-profit school based in Brockton, the Massachusetts Attorney General alleged that the school misrepresented, among other things, the employment opportunities available in students’ field of study and percentages of students successfully placed in those fields.[5]
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It is what it is. Retail is not an easy job. I've had my life threatened, safety compromised, etc. Somedays I feel like a law enforcement officer with what people are trying to pull with the controlled substances. Other days I feel like a running a business as a money making machine.
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Lol. I paid over 41k in my loans last year. If you want to be aggressive you can wipe out that loan real quick.
That is super aggressive. I'm throwing $1k per paycheck right now. After taxes, 401k, health insurance, etc my paycheck is around $2500 biweekly. I'm also trying to save for a house, so I'm putting another $500/paycheck toward that. After rent/car payment/gas/food there really isn't much left over for extra loan payments. I don't even have a smartphone or cable tv.
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And you make what? 120 k a year? There is not much left over after taxes. Try saving for a house when you have 200 k in student loan debt is not a easy thing to do.
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As a student soon to come face-to-face with the current job market, my answer would be "probably not."
If you try to be a good student, you will work your butt off in pharmacy school, thinking you're going to get out and change the world. Then, when you start getting close to graduation, you begin to realize that rather than hoping to change the world, you're just hoping to land a job so that you can pay your loans off. The example I give everyone... In a major hospital near my school, one staff pharmacy position had (I think) 150 + applications. So imagine competing for a job in a market where there are 150 applicants for one position. Now of course it isn't this bad everywhere, but from what I've heard, if you're looking at any major market, getting a job is a long shot. But I'm still a student, so I will ultimately defer to the practicing pharmacists on the job market.
If you are really truly interested in health care, go nursing, PA, or MD. Nursing and PA will likely be able to write their tickets with the coming changes in healthcare though, so keep that in mind.
You have to keep in mind that almost all jobs have crappy prospects right now, it's just that with pharmacy, you're tacking on a lot of additional loans. So as someone above said, it's definitely a risk vs. benefit thing...
If you try to be a good student, you will work your butt off in pharmacy school, thinking you're going to get out and change the world. Then, when you start getting close to graduation, you begin to realize that rather than hoping to change the world, you're just hoping to land a job so that you can pay your loans off. The example I give everyone... In a major hospital near my school, one staff pharmacy position had (I think) 150 + applications. So imagine competing for a job in a market where there are 150 applicants for one position. Now of course it isn't this bad everywhere, but from what I've heard, if you're looking at any major market, getting a job is a long shot. But I'm still a student, so I will ultimately defer to the practicing pharmacists on the job market.
If you are really truly interested in health care, go nursing, PA, or MD. Nursing and PA will likely be able to write their tickets with the coming changes in healthcare though, so keep that in mind.
You have to keep in mind that almost all jobs have crappy prospects right now, it's just that with pharmacy, you're tacking on a lot of additional loans. So as someone above said, it's definitely a risk vs. benefit thing...
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I wasn't talking about inflating out of debt. More along the lines of loan forgiveness and/or expatriation
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Did you forget about forbearance, income based repayment, and loan forgiveness?
When I exit the pharmacy profession, I will probably have around $500k in outstanding student debt. After filing an ibr income adjustment form my monthly payments will be $0 (or $50 I forget) for as long as I remain retired.
If you quit your job, for petes sake why would you keep paying your loans?
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Did you forget you need to pay taxes on any amount that is "forgiven"? If 400 k is forgiven, expect to pay 30% = 120 k. That amount doesn't include the monthly payment you will be making for the next 25 years (about 18% of your after taxed salary). And what if you don't have the money? Expect the government to dig into your social security checks.
If your dream job is going to pay you $60 an hour, expect your monthly payment to jump after your first year working as a pharmacist.
You are also lucky that you married to someone who doesn't work (lucky is not the exact word). If you had married another pharmacist who doesn't have any student loans, then expect your monthly payment to also jump.
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I hope for everybody's sake that this latest generation does get loan forgiveness. It's only a trillion. What the hell throw it on the debt deflation bonfire. Otherwise we will lose consumer demand from an entire generation unable to start a household. But as tax observer since the 90's, one thing I can tell you: the rules will always change. You can't count on the current rules being in place five, ten, twenty years from now. Especially with annual trillion dollar deficits, government will be desperate for revenue. You will want to have as little exposure to govt as possible--out of tax deferred accounts and no federal subsidized/backstopped loans.
The expat door is being closed. It will become impossible to leave the country w/o an exit tax. Noticed how European banks are closing out American accounts? The new IRS regulations regarding foreign assets is too much a headache. Nobody wants to deal with us.
The expat door is being closed. It will become impossible to leave the country w/o an exit tax. Noticed how European banks are closing out American accounts? The new IRS regulations regarding foreign assets is too much a headache. Nobody wants to deal with us.
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Is it still worth it to become a pharmacist? The answer is no.
Like other posters have mentioned, it's the crushing weight of student loans and rapidly disappearing job prospects that will make students think twice about pharmacy school.
Since it's 2013 and pharmacy school takes anywhere from 4-6 years to complete, any prospective students should seek study elsewhere.
Current students - either switch majors or do a dual degree. If you come from a pharmacist family or have stellar connections, then by all means continue on.
Current pharmacists - network as if your life depended on it. If you can find pharmacy-related jobs that don't require licensing (less than 1%), aim for those as those are "unicorn land" jobs. Also, there are fields that the pharmacy degree can get you noticed that really have nothing to do with pharmacy (pay maybe lower but room for advancement is almost limitless). If all else fails, you may have to sign that promissory note again and go back to school.
Like other posters have mentioned, it's the crushing weight of student loans and rapidly disappearing job prospects that will make students think twice about pharmacy school.
Since it's 2013 and pharmacy school takes anywhere from 4-6 years to complete, any prospective students should seek study elsewhere.
Current students - either switch majors or do a dual degree. If you come from a pharmacist family or have stellar connections, then by all means continue on.
Current pharmacists - network as if your life depended on it. If you can find pharmacy-related jobs that don't require licensing (less than 1%), aim for those as those are "unicorn land" jobs. Also, there are fields that the pharmacy degree can get you noticed that really have nothing to do with pharmacy (pay maybe lower but room for advancement is almost limitless). If all else fails, you may have to sign that promissory note again and go back to school.
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Another thing:
While on my APPE rotations, I noticed loan repayment programs are virtually limitless for nurses, PAs, physicians. Pharmacist loan repayment programs are a handful.
While on my APPE rotations, I noticed loan repayment programs are virtually limitless for nurses, PAs, physicians. Pharmacist loan repayment programs are a handful.
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True, but I think you're going to see that shifting heavily towards PAs and nurses...healthcare has realized that for primary care (where most of the shortages are), PAs and nurse practitioners can do an adequate job for much less than the good old MD. Kind of like in pharmacy how we're seeing tech-check-tech and lower pharmacist:tech ratios. Everything is about saving a buck, even if you risk sacrificing quality in doing so.
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Glorious! I see your smartphone and cable TV and raise you health insurance, and Christmas tree x 5 years. The two things I wont do with out is financial expertise and my electronic toothbrush. If you are using a saving account to accumulate a down payment you need to fork out for the expertise because you are severely lacking it inherently. Give up the starbucks and get yourself a good finance man. I have one and he has made me more than I have through the glut.
I live in one of the top 5 best cities in the country mainly because my I too bought a house (that is currently worth a quarter of what I owe for it.). The last time I could even call a big box recruiting manager, which btw used to be customary, was September 2008. She had nothing for me except a 12 hour tag team in the arm pit of the dessert. It is 2013 and it certainly hasn't gotten better. Suffice to say that I am neck deep in "the situation." The fact that you are working right now has more to do with your lack of experience than anything. You are loosing worth every day. You can get pissed or ignore me and keep on believing it is because you are quick and special. But if you think there is even a chance I am right you might want to wait until after November 2016 to start picking out curtains. Come November 2016 if you are still with any big box and your are actually checking the prescriptions that you bag and every where you look you see a unicorn in 3/4 length lab coat the coast is clear. Get a nice g d house. You deserve not to have to wait but consider it
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There are already exit taxes. Why pay them if you are fleeing uncle sam in the first place though?
Foreign assets regs target american citizens who owe us taxes. Also while they have hit Swiss banks heavily so far, carribbean remains a safer option. But again, if you are trying to disappear from us gov , avoiding any bank whatsoever is probably a better bet.
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you have been talking about IBR all of this time but now you are switching to leaving the country as a way to avoid paying your student loans? Man, I don't know how do you plan your life around your student loan debt.
What are the kinds of jobs where you don't need a license? I'm talking about the "unicorn" jobs? Why would anyone go to pharmacy school NOT to practice pharmacy? Seems very backwards to me!!
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Cap controls will probably be in place until the West cries uncle capitulating to the East as financial capital of the globe. Check out Mark Nestmann, he's up to date on this expat strategy. I gotta an idea of what you're thinking, no need to say it. Be careful though the markets for certain clandestine assets are not as liquid as comonly portaited. You might avoid the exit tax by the IRS, but the market maker on the other end will know this, thereby presenting an unfavorable bid/ask spread. Good luck.
The Pharm.D. degree has existed since the 1930s, but when I graduated in 1994, most schools granted the B.Sc.Pharm. degree and then you had to go to school for 2 extra years to get a Pharm.D. 10% or so did this at the time. Several schools were Pharm.D. only, and started converting in big numbers in the late 1990s.
It's not the profession it was even 5 years ago. 🙁
Oh, I meant there was no such requirement ie residency or pharm D for a regular pharmacist job that time..And many years ago, jobs were plenty for those with only Bs degree with license.
This field is getting into dead end...
I don't do starbucks either. Stains your teeth and burns the wallet. But I certainly don't plan on buying too quickly, no idea where in the world I will be in the next few years, so certainly can't have a house tie me down to one spot. But I figure it will take a while to save toward it, so might as well start now. When there is more in that savings account, maybe I'll consider getting a financial guy. Don't think anything outside of a casino can turn a mere $1000 into a house.
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Caffeine pills is my best friend. 0.05 cent/pill for 200 mg at Walmart $4/80 pills. No extra calories, cheap as hell. I spend 0.05 cents/caffeine while my techs get hers for $4/cup >_>; They also complain a 2 income earners $35kX2 = $75k household don't have any money & can't set aside any for investment purposes (401k). The very same techs who frequent the bars, eat out most of the week, and have $100/month cell phone plan.
I set up direct deposit of $1750/paycheck to Vanguard (I am treating this as an expense account), and rest to a bank account for necessities/fun/saving for inevitable stock market crash buyout account. No one really needs a financial adviser. You need to just grab a couple of good books, then set up automatic saving/investing, paying daily expenses, and enjoy life.
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I agree with this.
I have been managing my money and I have done pretty well. I would say even better than fund managers. Maybe I am just lucky but honestly, it is not difficult. However, you need to learn how to cut your cost and find a way to pay off your student loans ASAP. Once your money has been freed, you can start to have your money work for you. For example, last year I worked my butt off doing a lot of OT. This year I didn't do as much OT but my investment has done remarkably well. I don't need to pay 40% tax on the gains....just 15-20% so I will make more money this year than last year.
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LOL
Unicorn jobs are your fantasy "dream" jobs. For some, it's working retail 5 minutes away from your home. For many, it's a job that's outside of retail and hospital. Basically, it's the perfect position that most (about 90%) of pharmacists WILL NOT get.
As for jobs that don't require licensing, I know that positions in pharmaceutical industry don't require licensing, and those positions are very hard to get. There are positions related to pharmacy that don't require licensing believe it or not (these usually require anywhere from 5-10 years of experience), unless you have really good connections.
Essentially, with jobs like those, you DO practice pharmacy but you don't necessarily dispense/counsel AND have to pay the "professional tax" to the state every 2-3 years for license renewal.
