Is Legacy a worthwhile concept?

  • Yes, Legacy is a great idea.

    Votes: 13 21.0%
  • No, Legacy is the dumbest thing since Gigli.

    Votes: 41 66.1%
  • I thought you said there were going to be pancakes?!

    Votes: 8 12.9%

  • Total voters
    62

Johannen

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A point was brought up earlier..how come everyone QQ's about AA, but not about Legacy?

AA at least has a purpose, URM communities and etc. Legacy? WTF, mate?
How is it efficient or even fair to take students based on their family's efforts? This is about as back-door as it gets! And I know we all hate it when people use the back door.







To get into med school.
 

jackieMD2007

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Johannen said:
A point was brought up earlier..how come everyone QQ's about AA, but not about Legacy?

AA at least has a purpose, URM communities and etc. Legacy? WTF, mate?
How is it efficient or even fair to take students based on their family's efforts? This is about as back-door as it gets! And I know we all hate it when people use the back door...To get into med school.
If the gym is named after your dad, that would be the full-scholarship! Now if you'll excuse me I have a croquet match to play on the HUMS lawn. :thumbup: :laugh:
 

BozoSparky

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i am not for legacies, but i have to say, having met some of the students in my class who have connections, they are great people and amazing students. that's my experience. i sometimes feel there are other types of legacies...for example, ivies keeping ivies.
 

jbrice1639

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you pay taxes in your state, which gives you preferential consideration at your state schools and lower tuition. how is that any different than having donated money or paid tuition or remained active with a school and getting preferential consideration?

i'm not necessarily for or against the legacy system...didn't really affect me. trying to compare it to the URM situation seems pointless, though. if anything, it points out just how archaic and useless that system is by comparing it to yet another system that involves preferential treatment that is undeserved and unearned.
 

DrBowtie

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It's the way of the world. No such thing as a true meritocracy.
 

Rafa

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the OP said:
A point was brought up earlier..how come everyone QQ's about AA, but not about Legacy?

AA at least has a purpose, URM communities and etc. Legacy? WTF, mate?
How is it efficient or even fair to take students based on their family's efforts? This is about as back-door as it gets! And I know we all hate it when people use the back door.
Because anti-AA people hope to become wealthy and successful so *their* children can be legacies. But no sane person wants the sh!t of becoming an underrepresented minority or having his or her children become target practice for police officers and scapegoats for politicians, so they'd rather that (AA) was done away with, leaving legacy - a system based purely on the people with the most money securing spots for their offspring, peasants and hard-workers be damned - the only way to get into "top" schools. It's just another hypocrisy. You'll see them swear up and down this isn't true - many (the pro-legacy crowd) will come at you with excuse after excuse for why "we need legacy in America", etcbs etcbs - although trying to justify legacy compared to affirmative action is about as purposeful as trying to find WMDs in Iraq.
 

Instatewaiter

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No doubt that the legacy system is a bit unfair. If you were part of the med school administration, I could see it making sense from a fiscal stand point. Med schools get most of their money from donations, namely from its alumni. What better way to keep the alumni happy then to let their son or daughter in.

In my experience though, every legacy child I know that was 'let into' Med school has higher numbers than his/her average classmate. I know this is just my experience but I honestly think you would be hard pressed to find data to the contrary.
 
OP
J

Johannen

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Instatewaiter said:
In my experience though, every legacy child I know that was 'let into' Med school has higher numbers than his/her average classmate. I know this is just my experience but I honestly think you would be hard pressed to find data to the contrary.

That statement misses the point of my rant; it's all about the people who haven't earned their way, but daddy paid it nonetheless. If their numbers give support, more power to them.
 

chaeymaey

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AA is a policy that med schools are required to follow. Legacies are not written rules and there are plenty of cases where legacies were not admitted (like me). It's something that gives you a connection to the school, just like living in the same city or working in one of the school's hospitals.
 

LizzyM

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Every school wants to fill its class with people who are enthusiastic about the school. Schools are concerned with "yield" which is the ratio of offers to matriculants. Some schools will make 400 offers to fill 100 seats -- this happens at highly ranked schools (when every successful applicant has 3 or 4 offers some of those schools are going to be disappointed).

So, anything that indicates a strong interest or commitment to the school is a positive. If three generations of Sniggerhufs graduated from the school ahead of you and you learned the school fight song before you learned your nursey rhymes, then perhaps you have a strong desire to attend. The school hopes so.

The darker side is that if your daddy, grandpappy and great-uncle Louie have been donating $1,000 year for the past 30 years (and $10,000 in reunion years), and you don't even get an interview, those generous donors may be upset. If no one in the admissions office knew your relation to the very generous Drs. Sniggerhuf, the alumni office is going to be in a tizzy about the unintentional insult to its donors. So, adcom offices ask to avoid an embarassing faux pas.

When all is said & done, applicants get a numberical score. Let's say its a scale from 0-100. (No extra points for legacies.) Let's say that the school has 300 letters to send with the hope of filling 100 seats. Starting at the top of the list and working down, the first 295 letters go the applicants who have a "score" (based on application & interview) of 92-100. Now there are 5 letters left and 60 applicants with a score of 91. Which 5 applicants get the letters? All else being equal, it is likely that legacy or URM or some other special circumstance is going to tip the balance.
 

MossPoh

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I am not racist but generally find AA crap as well.....or the bizarre forms of it like the top 10 percent get into whatever public school they want in the state. I guess reallllly both kind of depend though...it really doesn't happen too much anymore that daddy pays a bunch of money and gets his kid in......even if they did the usmle is pretty indifferent unless the dad pays off those people too or created the test. If anything the fact that a parent graduated from a certain school is extra incentive in that (if they have the stats) they know that kid will most likley want to go to that school more than many others...I am probably an exception since my dad went to nymc back when it was actually IN new york city but it isn't my top priority...mainly due to weather and cost. He donates money every year though and was a very very good student there...generally speaking the "chip off the old block" seems to be true with most kids....always exceptions I know but the parents that were crazy when younger seem to have crazy kids. I am not banking on my dad being a grad there but the fact he was top 3 in his class and taught at UM after his fellowship for a little bit could help and they might see that it rubbed off on me. (We really are identical..almost bombed freshman year, weren't really sure about being doctors for a while, generally soft spoken) No idea what I was talking about..back to my mid afternoon mojito....what I don't think it is a gay drink
 

Law2Doc

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Johannen said:
A point was brought up earlier..how come everyone QQ's about AA, but not about Legacy?

AA at least has a purpose, URM communities and etc. Legacy? WTF, mate?
How is it efficient or even fair to take students based on their family's efforts? This is about as back-door as it gets! And I know we all hate it when people use the back door.



To get into med school.

It cannot be denied that multi-generational alumni give far greater money than single generation alumni, on average. Thus schools love them. However as others have noted, families with money are able to get their kids into the best prep schools, prep courses, tutors, etc, and so more frequently are in a position to get in on their own merits. And very few med schools I am aware of will lower their standards substantially to let a legacy person in -- they need to be on the cusp to play this card. Undergrad schools, I wouldn't be so sure.
 

notdeadyet

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Law2Doc said:
It cannot be denied that multi-generational alumni give far greater money than single generation alumni, on average. Thus schools love them.
Beat me to it.

You want to see the legacy system (weak now though it is) go away completely? Have a generation or two of alumni not not donate any money. Then see how far legacy will get you.
 

Instatewaiter

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Back to the data thing, anyone want to try and find some data on legacy kids' numbers compared with the rest of their med school class? It would be nice to have some numbers to back up the claims.

On another note, IMO the legacy issue in Ugrad is a toss up. I have heard of kids with great GPAs, SATs above 1500, and loads of ECs get rejected from Yale and others that have strolled in with sub-par numbers. I really think that the legacy issue only helps at certain schools (especially those in the south) or if you have roman numerals after your name as in Addison William Peasly Bradstreet VI. Kidding...

For med school, I feel the ease of getting in with a legacy is played up, many times to show another instance, besides AA, where the idea of a meritocracy is violated. I however, only have my own experiences to go from and would love some data to show legacy kids have lower numbers (or higher for that matter, just find some data).
 

jackieMD2007

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LizzyM said:
Every school wants to fill its class with people who are enthusiastic about the school. Schools are concerned with "yield" which is the ratio of offers to matriculants. Some schools will make 400 offers to fill 100 seats -- this happens at highly ranked schools (when every successful applicant has 3 or 4 offers some of those schools are going to be disappointed).

So, anything that indicates a strong interest or commitment to the school is a positive. If three generations of Sniggerhufs graduated from the school ahead of you and you learned the school fight song before you learned your nursey rhymes, then perhaps you have a strong desire to attend. The school hopes so.

The darker side is that if your daddy, grandpappy and great-uncle Louie have been donating $1,000 year for the past 30 years (and $10,000 in reunion years), and you don't even get an interview, those generous donors may be upset. If no one in the admissions office knew your relation to the very generous Drs. Sniggerhuf, the alumni office is going to be in a tizzy about the unintentional insult to its donors. So, adcom offices ask to avoid an embarassing faux pas.

When all is said & done, applicants get a numberical score. Let's say its a scale from 0-100. (No extra points for legacies.) Let's say that the school has 300 letters to send with the hope of filling 100 seats. Starting at the top of the list and working down, the first 295 letters go the applicants who have a "score" (based on application & interview) of 92-100. Now there are 5 letters left and 60 applicants with a score of 91. Which 5 applicants get the letters? All else being equal, it is likely that legacy or URM or some other special circumstance is going to tip the balance.
So if you're qualified to begin with, and perhaps on the cusp of acceptance, it is the kind of thing that would put you over the top. Gotcha. Very interesting. Thanks! :thumbup:
 

Law2Doc

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Instatewaiter said:
Back to the data thing, anyone want to try and find some data on legacy kids' numbers compared with the rest of their med school class? It would be nice to have some numbers to back up the claims.
I seriously doubt anybody publishes or even keeps these stats. It's not like URM where you check a box on AMCAS and they assemble data. And no school will boast of their number of legacies as they might with a diversity group (URM, nontrads).
 

jbrice1639

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LizzyM said:
Every school wants to fill its class with people who are enthusiastic about the school. Schools are concerned with "yield" which is the ratio of offers to matriculants. Some schools will make 400 offers to fill 100 seats -- this happens at highly ranked schools (when every successful applicant has 3 or 4 offers some of those schools are going to be disappointed).

So, anything that indicates a strong interest or commitment to the school is a positive. If three generations of Sniggerhufs graduated from the school ahead of you and you learned the school fight song before you learned your nursey rhymes, then perhaps you have a strong desire to attend. The school hopes so.

The darker side is that if your daddy, grandpappy and great-uncle Louie have been donating $1,000 year for the past 30 years (and $10,000 in reunion years), and you don't even get an interview, those generous donors may be upset. If no one in the admissions office knew your relation to the very generous Drs. Sniggerhuf, the alumni office is going to be in a tizzy about the unintentional insult to its donors. So, adcom offices ask to avoid an embarassing faux pas.

When all is said & done, applicants get a numberical score. Let's say its a scale from 0-100. (No extra points for legacies.) Let's say that the school has 300 letters to send with the hope of filling 100 seats. Starting at the top of the list and working down, the first 295 letters go the applicants who have a "score" (based on application & interview) of 92-100. Now there are 5 letters left and 60 applicants with a score of 91. Which 5 applicants get the letters? All else being equal, it is likely that legacy or URM or some other special circumstance is going to tip the balance.
as a former english major, i must say i love the creative names/language you frequently use in your posts :D
 

NotAnMD

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Law2Doc said:
I seriously doubt anybody publishes or even keeps these stats. It's not like URM where you check a box on AMCAS and they assemble data. And no school will boast of their number of legacies as they might with a diversity group (URM, nontrads).
Would you say that being the son or daughter of an alumnus would carry more weight than a younger sibling? Having my bro graduate from a particular med school didn't really help me.
 

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NotAnMD said:
Would you say that being the son or daughter of an alumnus would carry more weight than a younger sibling? Having my bro graduate from a particular med school didn't really help me.
Yes. Older alumns have a longer donation track record. And again it is the multigenerational alumns, (eg. the 5 + generations of Bush's that went to Yale undergrad) that are the big ticket donors.
 

NotAnMD

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Law2Doc said:
Yes. Older alumns have a longer donation track record. And again it is the multigenerational alumns, (eg. the 5 + generations of Bush's that went to Yale undergrad) that are the big ticket donors.
I assume you mean undergrads in general. I think it would be hard to find any 5th generation alums at a US med school, but incredible if they exist. That's why I was curious about a sibling be a recent grad of a med school.
 

LizzyM

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NotAnMD said:
I assume you mean undergrads in general. I think it would be hard to find any 5th generation alums at a US med school, but incredible if they exist. That's why I was curious about a sibling be a recent grad of a med school.

Columbia granted its first medical degrees in May 1769 so it is not impossible.
 

Law2Doc

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NotAnMD said:
I think it would be hard to find any 5th generation alums at a US med school, but incredible if they exist.
I'd be surprised if there haven't been a few 3+ generational med school alumns at most of the Ivies and comparably old schools. 5 may be pushing it, but I'd bet a school like Harvard has had such a family somewhere in its history.
 

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Legacy is generally not the entire story. I feel that for the most part, people that get in are qualified. Legacy is just one extra determining factor for when you've got basically the same other qualifications.

If your family went to a school, you are more likely to also go to that school. If a school accepts someone who has Legacy, the benefit they get is that they can worry less about other schools getting a student they want.