Is Med School even viable for me? ...What should I do?

[Perrotfish]

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Two more things about the DO route:

1) DO schools see ALL your grades, they just say that they use to most recent coursework if you retake a class. This is important because it means that you can retake

2) Nothing gets rid of your (multiple?) suspension(s). That will very likely be a deal killer for any medical school, DO or otherwise. Keep in mind how much you're risking by going down this path. Could you imagine going to 5 more years of Undergrad, dragging your GPA up to a 3.5 (with grade replacement), somehow managaing to kill the MCAT, and then finding out that your suspension is an insurmountable obstacle in the eyes of the ADCOMs?

3) Keep in mind there's still the MCAT at the end of this road. A lot of premeds (including a lot of my friends from college) see their quest for med school end when they find out they just can't pass this test. Again, this is something that you need to consider.

So, again, I recommend nursing your way up through the ranks. Finish your degree and apply to a 1-2 year RN program for college grads. After several years of work (and maybe some night school) a NP program might be willing to overlook your grades in light of your work experience. After several more years of work as an NP you might be able to weasal your way into a DNP program. At that point you would have practice rights very similar to an MD GP.

My 2 cents (again). Good luck.

 

[tiedyeddog]

I'd say try the DO route. The MD route isn't really a viable option for you. Replacing your bad grades would really help you out. In general, international students have a tough time getting into allo schools even with above average grades/mcat... Id wager you are way out of reach for any MD school in the US as an international student with your grades....

Good luck!

 

[ofoshoukno]

I'd say given your situation, you better CRUSH the MCAT. Like I mean smoke it (35+)

 

[tiedyeddog]

Instead everyone's prattling on about Carib vs DO vs Canadian MD vs U.S. MD. C'mon people, get some perspective.

I agree with what you saying but the DO vs MD has implications in what classes the OP should take in order to prove him/herself. Retaking would help a DO application, not an MD.

 

[koopa_troopa]

koopa troopa:
You nearly gave me a heart attack! I can't believe I just took it for granted that retaking courses was possible. So I looked it up in the course calendar (it's a little dated.. will have to ask my academic counsellor soon) and from what I understand the exact words were:

- Students may not re-register for credit in a course they have they have already passed that course.

- Where students may not register in courses for credit, they may register in them as extra courses. In such cases, both registrations in the course are shown on the student's record but the second grade is not included in the student's GPA nor does the course count towards the degree.

So if I'm reading this right, I'm able to retake courses I did poorly in but passed. It's just that the GPA won't count towards my cGPA. But DO med schools would still consider my higher mark, right? Maybe I should just try and find a new university that would accept my sorry ass and start over instead of waiting 3 yrs for the suspension to wear off...

It is hard to say. I'm not too familiar with the DO application, but it seems that your school will not give you credit for the repeat and so I doubt the DO school will count a letter grade for a course worth '0' credits. If you are serious about DO, there are tons of resources. People in the DO section of the forums will be glad to answer your questions.

 

[StellarRay]

Hmm thats not true, alot of the schools have some sort of kicks like (with help of a friend),

University of Alberta will drop your lowest year
University of Dalhousie will take your last two years
University of Saskatchewan will take your best two years
University of Manitoba will drop a certain number of courses
University of Western Ontario will take your best two years
University of Queens will take your most recent two years
University of Toronto will drop a certain number of courses


(UBC and UofC both take all 4 years..)

(not sure of..) McGill University, McMaster University, Memorial University, University of Sherbrooke,

So in terms of Canadian med schools, my only options would be those 4 that I bolded. I knew of the 3, just wasn't sure of Sask. Well thank you that's good to know. ^^

McMaster I know considers all your marks but it's purely GPA based, no MCAT (I think), and I'm not sure if they require any pre-reqs.

What do you mean by suspension? Academic? For academic dishonesty?

Just academic. >_>'

Two more things about the DO route:

1) DO schools see ALL your grades, they just say that they use to most recent coursework if you retake a class. This is important because it means that you can retake

2) Nothing gets rid of your (multiple?) suspension(s). That will very likely be a deal killer for any medical school, DO or otherwise. Keep in mind how much you're risking by going down this path. Could you imagine going to 5 more years of Undergrad, dragging your GPA up to a 3.5 (with grade replacement), somehow managaing to kill the MCAT, and then finding out that your suspension is an insurmountable obstacle in the eyes of the ADCOMs?

3) Keep in mind there's still the MCAT at the end of this road. A lot of premeds (including a lot of my friends from college) see their quest for med school end when they find out they just can't pass this test. Again, this is something that you need to consider.

So, again, I recommend nursing your way up through the ranks. Finish your degree and apply to a 1-2 year RN program for college grads. After several years of work (and maybe some night school) a NP program might be willing to overlook your grades in light of your work experience. After several more years of work as an NP you might be able to weasal your way into a DNP program. At that point you would have practice rights very similar to an MD GP.

My 2 cents (again). Good luck.

Well, the way I see it is that regardless I have to start a new degree anyways. Even if it's not for med school (ie college grad programs, MBA, etc). But by researching here I've discovered that I do have some med school options in the States (specifically DO med schools) which increased the number of med schools that I thought I could apply to by 5 fold.

And yes, the suspensions could be a deal breaker. My only hope to counteract that is a solid turnaround in school and ECs and volunteer/work experience. Maybe I could use it to my advantage.. the drastic make over. Upward trend. Rebirth?

Tired:
Hey, cute analogy, Tired. I actually started exercising, eating healthy, and just bought weights as recent as last month... ^^

I don't see it so much as putting the cart before the horse as it is me asking which road ahead will lead my horse and me to where I want to be. I just need to know what roads are open and how far my horsie will have to tow the cart. For example, the MD road in the States would take me nearly a lifetime and my horsie will probably die on me before we reach our destination...

Honestly, maybe I am getting in over my head here.

 

[Perrotfish]

Seriously. His grades are really bad. He wants to go to medical school. Step #1 (and by that I mean "The Totally Obvious Thing To Do") is to go back to school and get good grades.

Duh.

Instead everyone's prattling on about Carib vs DO vs Canadian MD vs U.S. MD. C'mon people, get some perspective.

It's like the kid who's never worked out and decides he wants to be a power lifter. So he goes out and buys a bunch of fitness magazines, a lot of great workout clothes, a weight belt, gloves, a fancy hydration system, and a big thing of protein powder. Dumb dumb dumb.

I think the reseearch is his only chance here. If he goes off sans information and just takes more courses in the hopes of getting into a US allo school his chances go from slim to none.

I see no problem with the protien powder kid. On the other hand I have had friends that decided they wanted to be in shape, ran off to the campus gym without reading anything, and injured themselves doing their daily, unspotted, terrible form squats by the end of the second week. That is dumb.

As for the OP, maybe you should try calling a couple of DO ADCOMS to see if they would consider taking someone with multiple suspensions and the sort of 'rebirth' scenario you're talking about. It's their off season, they'll probably respond if you ask politely.

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

I agree with what you saying but the DO vs MD has implications in what classes the OP should take in order to prove him/herself. Retaking would help a DO application, not an MD.

MD and carribean are out of the question.

OP, I think you should retake all those courses even if you decide not to do DO, because at least then you would know that you could do it once you finish, and wouldn't be left with your GPA haunting you for the rest of your life.

If you do make it all the way, be sure to trumpet your story through all the forums, because that would truly make for an inspirational story, and every time some forum noob makes a "I have a ___ GPA with ___ MCAT, will I lose my dreamz" thread, we can just link your story. In fact there'd be a sticky titled "Read this before you post a 'am i doomed' thread or else u will be banned" and just have your story on it.

 

[koopa_troopa]

I think it is worthwhile he does the research (and compare caribbean vs DO) so he knows what he is getting into. If he can get into a new school and start school now, then he might consider Caribbean schools. However, if he can redo his courses at his current school (and wait 3 years for his suspension to end) then he can do a DO in the states.

 

[87138]

After several more years of work as an NP you might be able to weasal your way into a DNP program. At that point you would have practice rights very similar to an MD GP.

Ugh. Don't encourage him (or anyone).

 

[Gut Shot]

I don't see it so much as putting the cart before the horse as it is me asking which road ahead will lead my horse and me to where I want to be. I just need to know what roads are open and how far my horsie will have to tow the cart. For example, the MD road in the States would take me nearly a lifetime and my horsie will probably die on me before we reach our destination...

You have a valid point, but you only have three options:

1. Restart school with the goal of being a physician (science prereqs, etc.)
2. Restart school with the goal of being something else (business, computers, art history, psychology, etc.)
3. Drop out and pursue something that does not require university education

Options 1. and 2. are both contingent upon you being able to do well in your classes, so my advice is to not overplan this situation. Go back to school, take or retake classes, work hard and do your best. Then (and only then) will you have some useful information on which to base a decision.

I know you want to figure out all these paths in advance, but you really need to stay focused on the near-term. I noticed during my six years in grad school that young scientists have a propensity to map out very elaborate experiments based on data they don't yet have. Get the data, then decide where you can go. I see the same thing in medicine with how many physicians approach tough diagnostic cases.

 

[UTAPlaya10]

Dude, there have been doctors that have been where you are. You can't ask what will happen in regards to something that hasn't happened yet. You want to get into medical school to become a doctor but you're wondering if you're going to be able to make it because of your past. If the comes up in an interview AFTER you've done A LOT better in school than you tell them what you just told us about how you weren't ready for college BUT you do need to exhibit why you're ready now by making GREAT grades. You can do it but you HAVE to do it first before you start to think of whether you can get to the next step or not.

 

[StellarRay]

Well, I really needed to do this research otherwise I wouldn't have realised that the MD med schools in the States would take me nearly 10-15 years of undergrad to ever raise my cGPA to an acceptable level.

Doing a little research also decides if I should finish the last 1-2 years of my current undergrad or if I should just start a new degree entirely. And if I do start a new degree, then what would I pursue? For most Canadian med schools for example, they don't care what your undergrad degree was in (ie no preference for say life sciences over a liberal arts or business undergrad degree). Knowing that, you can "play the system" a little bit by doing an undergrad in something relatively easier perhaps in order to obtain a higher GPA. Or maybe I should go get a degree in something that will be easier to find employment after. There's just so many options to consider and thus why I feel like grinding my head against the sidewalk.

But as it stands, regardless I have to get a degree in order to consider backup plans such as college graduate programs, grad schools, or maybe a MBA. But I'd like to know what my options for med school are and keep as many of those doors open as possible. I mean, as it stands my options are:

1. Finish up my degree in 2 years and try to get into the 4 Canadian med schools through their "best 2 year" or "last 2 year" system.

2. Restart my entire degree again (requires 4 years) and retake the courses I did poorly in and then apply to both the 4 Canadian med schools as mentioned above and also possible DO med schools and Carrib med schools.

3. Pick a completely new undergrad degree (requires 4 years). However I don't think I'd be able to apply to DO schools since they look at all my marks regardless if I do amazing in my new degree, right?

Right now I'm leaning towards option #2. Mind you, that during this suspension I've been giving it alot of thought about possibly moving out to another province to start work as an Emergency First Responder. From what I've read, it's only a 6 week course and I could be working right after. It'd be an amazing experience to get to work with people and be in healthcare. Besides, I'm sure it'd look somewhat good on a med school application. ^^

It's just kind of scary, I mean, I don't know much about the job security or how in-demand a first responder is. Obviously a 2 year college degree in paramedicine would beat out my application with a 6 week crash course. I also don't know if I'd be able to survive paying rent and food and school with the income from a job like this. So yeah, alot of scary things going on in my life. Just thinking about moving to a new province so far away that I don't know anyone for someone as sheltered as me to be doing is really frightening.

Edit:
I don't really know if there's actually been people in my position who managed to achieve their dreams of being a doctor. I mean, I've looked and most people are fretting about 3.5 cGPAs.

And yeah, I should write a book about this if I ever do manage to make it too. Hopefully, in my life, this will be the darkest chapter.

 

[MaximusD]

I know full well of the COMLEX, but I was fairly certain that you needed the USMLE to practice in some states regardless of actual degree. If I'm wrong, consider that rescinded. 🙂

You are incorrect. That was a classy way to dodge my attack...well done, sir.

For the record, you can practice in 50 states with the COMLEX with your specialty boards given by the NBOME. In other words, you NEVER have to go outside of the osteopathic medical profession's metrics if you do not choose to.

AND for the record here is the practice rights for DO's in Canada as posted on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Osteopathic_Medicine

Canada (varies by province)
Alberta Unlimited. LMCC, Step 1&2 required
British Columbia Unlimited. LMCC required
Manitoba Unlimited. US license recognized.
New Brunswick Unlimited. LMCC required, except DOs registered in Maine
Newfoundland Pending. Currently under review.
NW Territories Unlimited. US license recognized.
Nova Scotia Unlimited. Only D.O.s from ACGME (US or Canadian) residency.
Ontario Unlimited. Only D.O.s from ACGME residency.
Prince Edward I. Restricted. No provision for US D.O.
Quebec Unlimited. 1 year GME in Quebec & French fluency required.
Saskatchewan Limited. OMM only.
Yukon Territory Unlimited. US license recognized.

As you can see from the bolded above, there are a few provinces that accept osteopathic licensure for Canada. However, in contrast with practice rights in American states, a few of the Canadian provinces DO REQUIRE that you have completed an MD (ACGME) residency, which approximately 50-60% of all DOs choose every year anyway.

OP: This would mean that for the provinces listed as "Only DOs from ACGME residency" you would have had to done your post graduate work at an MD institution, but as a DO you would still be able to have full practice rights in that province. I won't run down each of them, but there are others that offer unlimited practice rights with any US licensure and others that offer only limited practice rights. If you want a more detailed description, it may be best to contact the AOA directly.

Here is a graphical breakdown of practice rights domestically and internationally.

GREEN - Practice rights generally recognized as equal to U.S.-M.D.s
BROWN - Unlimited practice rights granted, but difficult to obtain
RED - Limited to manipulation-only
GREY - Unknown or previously denied

Again, green is an overgeneralization. Green may require that the DO graduate have gone through the LMCC exams and/or been trained through MD graduate medical education (ACGME) for residency.

As you can see, Perrotfish and many others touting the limitations of the DO degree are incorrect. It's a tradition here on SDN -- bull****, that is.

 

[Flaxmoore]

You are incorrect. That was a classy way to dodge my attack...well done, sir.

Ah, so admitting I might be wrong is "dodging" your attack. 😕

Considering that when I applied to Ohio University- a DO school- they said that many of their students took the USMLE, I'd say I made a good faith assumption.

Is that "dodging" too? 🙄

 

[MaximusD]

Ah, so admitting I might be wrong is "dodging" your attack. 😕

Considering that when I applied to Ohio University- a DO school- they said that many of their students took the USMLE, I'd say I made a good faith assumption.

Is that "dodging" too? 🙄

lol I said that in jest. Relax.

 

[MaximusD]

Well, I really needed to do this research otherwise I wouldn't have realised that the MD med schools in the States would take me nearly 10-15 years of undergrad to ever raise my cGPA to an acceptable level.

Doing a little research also decides if I should finish the last 1-2 years of my current undergrad or if I should just start a new degree entirely. And if I do start a new degree, then what would I pursue? For most Canadian med schools for example, they don't care what your undergrad degree was in (ie no preference for say life sciences over a liberal arts or business undergrad degree). Knowing that, you can "play the system" a little bit by doing an undergrad in something relatively easier perhaps in order to obtain a higher GPA. Or maybe I should go get a degree in something that will be easier to find employment after. There's just so many options to consider and thus why I feel like grinding my head against the sidewalk.

But as it stands, regardless I have to get a degree in order to consider backup plans such as college graduate programs, grad schools, or maybe a MBA. But I'd like to know what my options for med school are and keep as many of those doors open as possible. I mean, as it stands my options are:

1. Finish up my degree in 2 years and try to get into the 4 Canadian med schools through their "best 2 year" or "last 2 year" system.

2. Restart my entire degree again (requires 4 years) and retake the courses I did poorly in and then apply to both the 4 Canadian med schools as mentioned above and also possible DO med schools and Carrib med schools.

3. Pick a completely new undergrad degree (requires 4 years). However I don't think I'd be able to apply to DO schools since they look at all my marks regardless if I do amazing in my new degree, right?

Right now I'm leaning towards option #2. Mind you, that during this suspension I've been giving it alot of thought about possibly moving out to another province to start work as an Emergency First Responder. From what I've read, it's only a 6 week course and I could be working right after. It'd be an amazing experience to get to work with people and be in healthcare. Besides, I'm sure it'd look somewhat good on a med school application. ^^

It's just kind of scary, I mean, I don't know much about the job security or how in-demand a first responder is. Obviously a 2 year college degree in paramedicine would beat out my application with a 6 week crash course. I also don't know if I'd be able to survive paying rent and food and school with the income from a job like this. So yeah, alot of scary things going on in my life. Just thinking about moving to a new province so far away that I don't know anyone for someone as sheltered as me to be doing is really frightening.

Edit:
I don't really know if there's actually been people in my position who managed to achieve their dreams of being a doctor. I mean, I've looked and most people are fretting about 3.5 cGPAs.

And yeah, I should write a book about this if I ever do manage to make it too. Hopefully, in my life, this will be the darkest chapter.

Honest to god, it can always get worse. But with the right attitude you can do it... it's just not something you'll be able to have next year. It's going to take a while. If you really want it, you'll get it though.

 

[193250]

Good luck, my man. If you make it you will prove that anything is possible.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

 

[Handy388]

man, suddenly life seems a lot better in comparison.

 

[doomknight]

it sounds like you want to be a doctor to be "successful", rather than to be a doctor. You are probably better off choosing a different career


If you are really smart, as you say you are, study a few months wile you are suspended, and go get a 43S on a MCAT, carrib will probably take u then.

 

[ANF1986]

What I love most about posters like the OP is that he is going to suddenly start making straight As...some people just aren't cut out for competitive academia...it takes more than willpower and determination to make straight As...and, duh, why did it take getting to within a semester of graduating for the OP to realize he needed to make As?

To the OP: other than looking into those longshot programs you mentioned at the Canadian schools, give up. Your odds of getting into a US allo school are probably in the range of 1 in 100,000, and that assumes you have a miraculous post bacc experience with around 400 hours of As...do the math: how many years of post bacc would that take? at least 8, maybe more...and keep in mind, anything less than an "A" hurts you...

Find another path to serving the sick. Nursing, maybe? Social worker?

That is some real snub elitist bullsh**...and honestly not a very nice thing to say to someone who is seeking help, advice, and encouragement. The reality of the situation is that most people recieve poor grades in college because they are not disciplined enough when they start. There is a very clear correlation between time spent studying/effort to the grade a person recieves in a class. If your post meant that some people are not disciplined enough to put the kind of time and effort into their course work as others, then I may have interpreted your post incorrectly. However, I took your post as more of a snide remark that some people are not "born" for academics, and others are just dumb lowly servants who should be pumping your gas and serving your kids burgers.

In my personal opinion, as far as undergraduate work is concerned, college is about who puts in the most effort, not who is the smartest or scores the highest on an IQ test.


To the OP...I agree with much of the advice given in this thread. I would say that your goal of becoming a physician is great, but that you have a long time before this will become a reality. Until that time arrives, your main focus and energy needs to be on your undergraduate work. You need to retake EVERY course that you recieved a poor grade in (B- or less). AFTER you have done this, and done it well, you should return here to start discussing a plan for the future. Whether you decide to become a physician or not, I would advise you to retake all of those courses so you at least have a degree with high marks that could get you into other graduate programs should you so desire at that time. Good luck bro, and keep us updated. Dont let anyone get you down or tell you that you're a bad person for not putting in the time necessary to academics. There is more to life than books, although some people who put all their time into books sometimes like to make snide remarks to make themselves feel better for being losers who never get laid. My advice if you come across anyone like that who feels the need to put you down, break their nose...Lol, good luck man and cheer up, keep us updated... 👍👍👍

 

[193250]

So DO schools will replace every single class you retake with the new grade? If this is true, then this is great news! This may have been suggested before, but why don't you just retake undergraduate again for another four years? Granted financial reasons may be the biggest factor, but if it's possible to take out a few loans, you could very easily get into a DO school with that extra 4 years of retaking classes. It may still be though to get into allopathic schools, but if you can achieve the same result of being a physician with DO, then why not?

 

[Law2Doc]

...but if you can achieve the same result of being a physician with DO, then why not?

Folks should read the DO stickies on the pre-osteo board. But some of OP's references to getting the "same specialty" through a DO merit a little warning. Just bear in mind that to date DO's have made better inroads into some specialties, programs, regions than others. So if you have a particular specialty/program/region in mind it may not quite be the same result. The Princeton Review publishes a med school guide which used to caution folks applying for DO that this may not be the surest route to many of the more competitive paths. In certain allo fields, old boy networks persist and it's tough to break in. In other fields, particularly the primary care stuff, the reception is considerably warmer. DOs have made great strides and are matching into more and more fields, but it would be exaggerating to say they have an equal shot at some of the most competitive paths (yet). Also bear in mind that if one chooses to go through the allopathic match, rather than seeking osteo only slots, the match percentage is still significantly lower. Caribbean educated US students do considerably worse (in the boards, the match, attrition) than either MD or DO students, so this should only hit your radar as a last resort. It's a good 'second chance' when everything else doesn't pan out. Everyone knows one or two success stories, but there are dozens of failures for each success on that path.

I tend to agree with Tired et al, that there really isn't much consideration to be made here. The OP needs to take more classes, retake things, get the GPA up regardless of which path s/he wants to take. So start with a new degree and retaking everything for good grades. If that goes well, THEN the OP can weigh whether it makes sense to keep taking things for the allo path or just apply for the osteo path. There is really nothing to think about at this stage. In 4 years, the OP may have to make a decision, but right now I see but one realistic choice.

 

[193250]

Yeah, I agree that for most specialties, it's probably better to take the Allo route than the DO. However, the OP seems like he's dwindling down on his options. With the gpa so low, the DO route seems like a much more realistic choice.

 

[ar2388]

i have a friend who bombed his undergrad career.. had like a 2.5 if not lower gpa. he then took years off, worked, and then went back to school. his grades right now make me jealous and he will be aplying to md/phd programs.. i know it is daunting and may seem impossible, but i think the best bet is to go back to college.. start over frmo your freshman year. while your first grades may not be erased they will be from long ago and i think/hope medical schools will look at those grades, see "well they ****ed up" but "oh look! he went back, tried again, got his 3.8+, rocked the MCAT, have insane extracurrics and really want this and i think we should give him a chance"... go back, do it again, kick ass and you should be good to go...

 

[TehDoc]

Work for it.

 

[WannaBePreMed]

If you do start another four years
will the MD schools just look at the
new four years? Or all eight years?

😵

anyone know?

 

[p30doc]

If you do start another four years
will the MD schools just look at the
new four years? Or all eight years?

😵

anyone know?

MD schools look at everything ever and put it all into your gpa calculation, including college courses taken during high school. AMCAS will calculate a separate post-bacc gpa for the work completed after your first bachelors degree, but everything is included in your overall cumulative gpa.

 

[WannaBePreMed]

MD schools look at everything ever and put it all into your gpa calculation, including college courses taken during high school. AMCAS will calculate a separate post-bacc gpa for the work completed after your first bachelors degree, but everything is included in your overall cumulative gpa.

In this case, your MD chances are 6 ft under.

This remind me of my freshman year g-chem class. To get an A in the class I would have needed to get 106% on the final (which is possible with extra credit on the test). So i asked my Oxford PhD chem teacher if it was possible, and he say, "I wouldn't count on it, It's possible but not plausible." So I'm going to tell you what my professor told me, "It's possible but not plausible."

If you retake the classes you did bad in you can at least apply for DO
school, since they take the second grade. I think you have a good chance doing this.

Even if you don't pursue a career in medicine, remember to work hard in anything and everything you do.

 

[phospho]

Nothing is impossible if you're dedicated enough. However, it seems you may have deeper issues you need to resolve before you even consider medicine or any other profession for that matter.

 

[phospho]

If you do start another four years
will the MD schools just look at the
new four years? Or all eight years?

😵

anyone know?

Any college/university courses you have ever taken.

All 8.

 

[Dr Crys]

I started on a rocky slope too. I was enrolled at Indiana University in 2001 and never attended. I was enrolled in four classes and recieved F's for not withdrawing properly.

IU has a grade replacement policy and Academic forgiveness policy. I am going to try both to remove these grades, but I am also retaking the courses. If I can't get into Indiana Med School, then I will more than likely apply to DO schools. my gpa will be 3.7-3.8...after the grade replacement or grade removal. I am just saying there are policies to help and luckily the DO schools allow grade replacements.