Is Medical School Debt Really Manageable?

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A 250k (higher than the average med school loan amount taken out, BTW)

That's because the distribution is bi-modal. In the interviews I've been at, this issue was brought up and the financial aid directors have repeatedly said that people take out the COA if their parents don't pay for tuition. That's what skews the average. The median number, a more reliable indicator in this case, is not available for the most part.

So, unless you are rich/MSTP/URM, you will probably end up paying the entire COA.
 
he is an attending....who trolls SDN premedical forums....yikes.
God help me the day I am sitting alone at the computer, after just feeding my 10 cats, and bad mouthing 20+yr old premeds on the internet with the little free time I have as an attending.

I'm not weighing in on this argument, i'm just saying, the day you learn to take an individual's opinions with a whole tube of Morton's salt, the day your life will be better.

This is the Internet, people. You could claim anything you want and no one has any way to confirm or disprove what you say.

With that said, the "doctor" is full of it. Point me to the place in the ACA where it even talks about physician compensation.

Don't feed the troll.
 
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Is it manageable now? For most it is. Will it be manageable 5 years from now? For most it won't. If you are planning on taking out >$250k and don't have an alternative source of income (spouse, small business, trust fund, etc) I would not even consider med school.

This.

Debt will crush your altruism in a remarkably short period of time.

You will essentially be mortgaging 7+ years of your life before you start making good money. By that time, you will be paying 2-4k a month for the next 10-30 years of your life.

This doesn't seem like a lot to you now, but it is an incredible amount of money.

Don't be so naive to think that you'll be able to repay any amount of debt. There are no guarantees in this profession.

If you are willing to potentially work a large portion of your career paying back loans, then you'll be fine. If you are looking at medicine simply as a smart money move/stable career, you may be disappointed.
 
AAMC website has a really nice loan calculator set-up https://services.aamc.org/30/first/home/organizer.

Minus the cost of repaying loans leaves you with ~$2780 per month. Is $2780/month glamorous, not really, but it's still enough to live off of.

Hmmmm. If by living in a studio apartment in Kansas without a spouse or kids and eating like a college student, then yes, you can live off it.

That's about what I took home per month in residency. You live month to month praying to god that the car doesn't need repairs or the kid doesn't get sick. And when that happens you start racking up the credit card bill. I speak from experience.

If you're ok with being 40 years old and living off a resident's salary, then by all means have at it.

Financially I would consider that a poor decision, but if your drive is that strong and you're ok with it, then go for it. My experience tells me the VAST majority of us aren't so optimistic once we're out in the real world.

just my 2 cents.
 
Wow! So many attendings here on SDN. Who's working then? :laugh:

This is nothing but a scare tactic coming from the conservative camp. :meanie:

So, unless you are rich/MSTP/URM, you will probably end up paying the entire COA.

I doubt that URMs all get a free ride or even a partial scholarship. However, nice try!
 
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This is the Internet, people. You could claim anything you want and no one has any way to confirm or disprove what you say.

With that said, the "doctor" is full of it. Point me to the place in the ACA where it even talks about physician compensation.

Don't feed the troll.

It's called the IPAB. Oh yeah, example #2 would be bundled payments.
The fact that you don't know about this is a reflection of the ignorance and utter naivete on this forum.

I would like to know who is producing the koolaid that all the pre-meds are drinking.

This isn't the 1980s anymore folks. Those days are long gone. The system is broken, the country is bankrupt, and baby boomers are about to get sick. Health care costs will have to be cut dramatically or else we will be the next Greece. Guess who is first on the chopping block? Greedy, rich doctors.

If you choose to bury your head in the sand and wish it will go away, so be it. Don't say you weren't warned
 
That's because the distribution is bi-modal. In the interviews I've been at, this issue was brought up and the financial aid directors have repeatedly said that people take out the COA if their parents don't pay for tuition. That's what skews the average. The median number, a more reliable indicator in this case, is not available for the most part.

So, unless you are rich/MSTP/URM, you will probably end up paying the entire COA.

Uh...I'm funding all of med school myself and I'm not taking out anywhere close to COA. I know a lot of people that do. You have to realize that in many cases the COA is designed so that you could at least scrape by if you were trying to support a family. For a single dude, you really don't need to take out ~30k a year for living expenses. That's quite a bit of "throwing around" money. Again, I know people with similar circumstances that take out full COA but a lot of those people are also spending fairly lavishly (weekend trips to NYC, new TV, xbox, etc.) and operate under the mentality that they'll make enough in the future to pay off all the debt and live comfortably.

I'm not saying they're wrong...they probably will be able to "live comfortably" and pay off the debt but you should realize that every dollar you borrow now is a dollar+interest out of your pocket down the road. If having that attending-mobile or nice family vacation at disneyworld is really important to you, minimize how much you borrow.
 
Uh...I'm funding all of med school myself and I'm not taking out anywhere close to COA. I know a lot of people that do. You have to realize that in many cases the COA is designed so that you could at least scrape by if you were trying to support a family. For a single dude, you really don't need to take out ~30k a year for living expenses. That's quite a bit of "throwing around" money. Again, I know people with similar circumstances that take out full COA but a lot of those people are also spending fairly lavishly (weekend trips to NYC, new TV, xbox, etc.) and operate under the mentality that they'll make enough in the future to pay off all the debt and live comfortably.

I'm not saying they're wrong...they probably will be able to "live comfortably" and pay off the debt but you should realize that every dollar you borrow now is a dollar+interest out of your pocket down the road. If having that attending-mobile or nice family vacation at disneyworld is really important to you, minimize how much you borrow.

It also depends on whether or not you received scholarships to attend. For some schools, tuition + fees is already at 160k+ and that's without living expenses factored in.
 
When you guys say "fees" is that for things like health insurance, "books," "computer" "USMLE fee" "loan fees" etc? Basically, everything exception Tuition, Housing, and Personal Expenses?

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and even with a 25K/year aid from school, I will need to survive on $1000/month (rent, utility, food, "personal expenses" included) if I want my loans to be ~$180K. That just does not sound feasible, even though 25,000$ aid sounds like a lot!! :-(
 
I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and even with a 25K/year aid from school, I will need to survive on $1000/month (rent, utility, food, "personal expenses" included) if I want my loans to be ~$180K. That just does not sound feasible, even though 25,000$ aid sounds like a lot!! :-(
I'm confused. I'm assuming you're saying $25k on top of tuition & fees? That's $2080/mo. I would think that's plenty.
 
I'm confused. I'm assuming you're saying $25k on top of tuition & fees? That's $2080/mo. I would think that's plenty.

No, what I meant was, this is what the #'s look like for me:

Total CoA ~ $77,700
CoA minus mandatory tuition/fees ~ $23,500 (ie: this is the part of the CoA that I can skimp out on if I want to take out less loans). If I set aside on average $1500/year for "transportation" (things like trips to visit family, interview travels during 4th year, and let's also just tag on residency application fees here since that's not accounted for anywhere), that leaves me with ~$22,000/yr in my Cost of Attendance that I can really save on by making lifestyle changes.

Let's say I aim for ~$1000/month (assuming no stipend during postM1-summer) x 12 months x 4 years --> roughly, that is $48,000/4-yr living expenses on top of $55,700/yr "mandatory cost" of attending school (ie. 77,700-22,000) --> ~$270K over 4 years.

I did get $25,000/yr aid from the school, so I can subtract ~$100K from my expected loans... but that still leaves me with ~$170,000 in debt plus whatever interest that will start accumulating during school. I guess I just wanted to target for < $180,000 in original loan amount, but I am not sure how feasible that is. All these "debt averages" made it sound like that number (ie 180,000) should be so... average.
 
It's called the IPAB. Oh yeah, example #2 would be bundled payments.
The fact that you don't know about this is a reflection of the ignorance and utter naivete on this forum.

I would like to know who is producing the koolaid that all the pre-meds are drinking.

This isn't the 1980s anymore folks. Those days are long gone. The system is broken, the country is bankrupt, and baby boomers are about to get sick. Health care costs will have to be cut dramatically or else we will be the next Greece. Guess who is first on the chopping block? Greedy, rich doctors.

If you choose to bury your head in the sand and wish it will go away, so be it. Don't say you weren't warned

Don't feed the troll.
 
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Don't feed the troll.

So an attending with real-world experience who is politically active and connected is trying to give sound advice to premeds and a know-it-all med student dimisses his wisdom? Again, the ignorance and arrogance is frightening here. No wonder attendings stay away from this forum... everyone here already knows it all. Good luck!
 
Health care costs will have to be cut dramatically or else we will be the next Greece. Guess who is first on the chopping block? Greedy, rich doctors.

Didn't we - as in the US, more specifically our fraudulent investment firms e.g. Goldman - bankrupt Greece? I'd argue that Greece became the new US, except they weren't allowed to bail themselves out the way we can and did...
 
So an attending with real-world experience who is politically active and connected is trying to give sound advice to premeds and a know-it-all med student dimisses his wisdom? Again, the ignorance and arrogance is frightening here. No wonder attendings stay away from this forum... everyone here already knows it all. Good luck!

Are you new? That's SDN for ya.
 
So an attending with real-world experience who is politically active and connected is trying to give sound advice to premeds and a know-it-all med student dimisses his wisdom? Again, the ignorance and arrogance is frightening here. No wonder attendings stay away from this forum... everyone here already knows it all. Good luck!

It is really humourous how pre-meds are talking trash to a MD, calling him trolls and such lol...
Anyway, Dr. Robert, I share your reasoning about physicians' pay getting cut in the (near) future. It might happen but I dont think it will be so drastic that many won't be able to repay their loans, or have to join the army to repay it. With many baby boomers getting sick,we would need more qualified physicians to accomodate for the increased demand of health professionals. Discouraging young talented inidvidual from pursuing medical school will just get the situation worst for the U.S. A (big) increase in social security tax is a more viable option.
even if there is a "salary cut" i think it won't be targeted against the family doctor.
 
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So an attending with real-world experience who is politically active and connected is trying to give sound advice to premeds and a know-it-all med student dimisses his wisdom? Again, the ignorance and arrogance is frightening here. No wonder attendings stay away from this forum... everyone here already knows it all. Good luck!

1. I never said I was a know-it-all. I'm just saying your characterization of the ACA, which was the Heritage Foundation/Republican plan from the 1990's, is grossly incorrect. You never made the connection between the formation of the IPAB/bundled payments and physicians being the new indentured servants. You can't because it's just not in there. You're extrapolating things that are just not true. Your tirades sound like those old Ronald Reagan recordings warning that Medicare was the stepping stone to Soviet Communism.

2. I'm "politically active" too; I'm a member of Physicians for Human Rights, Physicians for a National Health Program, the American Medical Association. Further, I work closely with my chapter's American Medical Student Association Health Policy committee and your talking points frequently come up on our myths and facts alerts.

The truth is we're both partisans arguing our point of view. The difference is you're "hiding" behind your "status" as an attending to dismiss all criticism of your point of view. I could easily do the same, cite thousands of physicians from this country and other industrialized countries, to argue for universal health care via a single payer health care system. But that would be dishonest.

If you didn't answer every challenge to your ignorant statements about the ACA with a reply like, "Well, I'm an attending so I know more than all of you just because I'm an attending", I'd enjoy a debate with you. But, since you respond like a troll without justifying your position, I'm calling you a troll. I have no patience nor politeness for people who do not show respect for others.

3. Please explain how an "attending", practicing medicine in one little corner of the United States, has any more insight into the complexities and intricacies of health care policy on a national level than pre-meds, medical students, residents, or anyone else? Now, if you had a degree in Health Policy from a School of Public Health, that would be different. However, I doubt it: prior to medical school I worked at one such institution, especially during the health care debate in 2009 and the information given to us, in this particular School of Public Health community (students, staff, faculty, etc.) contradicts EVERYTHING you have thus written.

I'm not writing that to say I know more than anyone else on this forum. I only write that to answer to your charge that I, or anyone who challenges your worldview, is ignorant. I'm clearly not and I would appreciate it if you would stop doing it.

If you want to have a polite conversation, I'm all for it. But, first you need to stop with the ad hominem attacks.

And most importantly,

3. I do not believe you're an actual physician. No attendings I know have time to harass other people like this on a pre-med forum.

Pre-meds, if you want some resources regarding health care reform:

http://www.amsa.org/AMSA/Homepage/About/Priorities/HCFA.aspx
http://www.pnhp.org/http://www.pnhp.org/news/2012/april/medicare-for-all
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2012/april/insurers-still-in-control-in-obamacare

And what about a conservative response? Well, other than the AMA (which supports the ACA), the only other organization I could find was the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons. However, they're infamous for putting out such wonderful information as:

-HIV does not cause AIDS
-There is a link between breast cancer and abortion (there isn't)
-"the 'gay' male lifestyle significantly increases the incidence of infectious disease and shortens life expectancy by about 20 years."

I await your response Dr. Robert.
 
Medical school debt can be maneageable, but your really entering into indentured servitude. once the debt piles up you realize you have no choice but to be a physician, becuase its the only way to pay off the debt burden. This lack of freedom can cause anxiety to some. Your essentially marrying your profession. This is for people taking out larger debt burdens (id say over 120k).

The IPAB is the panel created in the ACA that will essentially be setting medicare reimbursements (bundling them so that they are no longer always based on RVU's (relative value units)) as well as setting the reimbursement levels of relative value units. The key point is you cant hold any other job if you are on this panel, so if the panel doesnt pay well (6 figures) its hard to imagine many doctors will be on the panel.

Current medical student tuition is based upon the incomes of the current system. In that people are willing and able to take out large amounts of loans becuase under the current system it appears theyll be able to pay them off.

Not too long ago many people were willing to incur 150k in debt to attend law school because they thought they'd easily pay it back. This led to an oversupply of lawyers which caused a decrease in their wage. Now kids choosing law schools almost always go to schools that offer them a good deal (or are ranked in the top 10 thus assuring them a salary capable of paying off the debt).

For Doctors its slightly a different situation because by in large we do not set our fee's they are a function of private and public reimbursements. We are at the mercy of policy makers, and increasingly the government. Most people wouldnt mind being primary care or family practice physicians if they didnt have a debt burden.

Single Payer systems work great in other countries because the education is much cheaper. Ive talked to doc's and students from the UK they love it there, the price of school is cheap, debt burden low, hours manageable. If you switch to a single payer system, there will be some lag between that and tuition rates going down, this means a certain generation will be screwed.

I know this sounds like doomsday saying, and it may be. It may be repayments will increase or stay the same and increased patient volume as well as efficiency will mean the future is bright. In addition maybe loan forgiveness programs will be enacted since new students will be in debt to the government instead.

The physician pipeline is long, enter now and you have to look 10 years into the future to see what your life will be like. My math has set the magic number at 200k. If you can take out less than 200k you should be able to handle it. Over 200k and your going to have to wait on things like buying a home, having a nicer car, and maybe that second kid. At least for 5 years (assuming your or your spouses parents arent gonna help you out). talk to some younger doctors some will admit this much to you.
 
Those attendings are wise. I always find it odd that on SDN people think that if you have a one time debt of $250K and a continuous income stream of $150K a year they conclude "ZOMG ZOMG ZOMG This student loan debt is insurmountable!!!1!!" whereas in the real world a family with $75K income can easily afford a $250K mortgage and stay well within affordability guidelines.

Now you are just being too logical.

You've also failed to account for the evil communist flying monkies that comrad Obama is going to unleash in the next five years that are going to mug you every night as you walk out of the hospital and ensure that the only compensation you get will be in chickens.

Silly pre med!
 
It is equivalent to the pre-meds who say "I would work for $40k a year if I could graduate with no debt!!1" when the standard of living with an income in the six figures and student loan debt of $200K+ would be a much better lifestyle than the $40K income but no debt that some pre-meds think is all the money in the world.

This is why they should can english and make accounting or some business equivalent a required pre med course.
 
Now you are just being too logical.

You've also failed to account for the evil communist flying monkies that comrad Obama is going to unleash in the next five years that are going to mug you every night as you walk out of the hospital and ensure that the only compensation you get will be in chickens.

Silly pre med!


The interest rate on a home is 2 to 4 percent lower than a student loan, and you get a house, and the 75K family writes off their interest mortgage payments on their taxes.

Wait till you see what that 250K upon graduation looks like after your residency. Talk to a doctor just starting off. I would love to see a 1st year attending with 250K medschool---> 350/400k after residency in debt comes in here and says its no problemo
 
For those looking into HPSP, please be aware that your health may preclude you from receiving the scholarship. I just found that out the other day. Something as simple as high blood pressure, your weight, or an inability to run a mile within a certain time limit for any reason can nix your eligibility. They Navy and Air Force seem to have more lax standards regarding health than the Army, though. Also pay attention to the fact that you're required to apply to the military residency match, ranking two specialties. If you fail to match both, then and only then can you apply to the NRMP (normal match). The military match is awesome in some respects (i.e., better chance for matching to competitive specialties since you're competing with far less grads), but lacks in other respects (e.g., limited specialties by branch, much more limited in potential hospitals).

Also, and most importantly, people that join the military purely for financial reasons are generally unhappy. Please don't do it. The government is always going to get more out of you then you are out of them.

Also, I think the notion that the HPSP is a golden ticket into competitive residencies is somewhat dubious. When you are in uniform, the "needs of the Army(or whatever)" is the la of the land. How many Dermatologists does the Army need? Not many. How many GPs does it need? A whoe bunch. Do the math.
 
The interest rate on a home is 2 to 4 percent lower than a student loan, and you get a house, and the 75K family writes off their interest mortgage payments on their taxes.

Wait till you see what that 250K upon graduation looks like after your residency. Talk to a doctor just starting off. I would love to see a 1st year attending with 250K medschool---> 350/400k after residency in debt comes in here and says its no problemo

Now, did I say it was "no problemo"?

No. I did not.

I contest the notion that it is cost prohibitive. Do you folks believe that there is any business model in this country that has no overhead? Your student loans are essentially that.

I especially contest the notion when it is tied to a political rant.

FWIW, residency isn't the first paying job I am going to have, and with a degree in business finance, I believe I am at least as qualified to assess my own financial risk as some random person on the internets.

BTW, unless you are selling or renting out one, a house doesn't generate revenue.
 
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Medical school debt can be maneageable, but your really entering into indentured servitude. once the debt piles up you realize you have no choice but to be a physician, becuase its the only way to pay off the debt burden. This lack of freedom can cause anxiety to some. Your essentially marrying your profession. This is for people taking out larger debt burdens (id say over 120k).

The IPAB is the panel created in the ACA that will essentially be setting medicare reimbursements (bundling them so that they are no longer always based on RVU's (relative value units)) as well as setting the reimbursement levels of relative value units. The key point is you cant hold any other job if you are on this panel, so if the panel doesnt pay well (6 figures) its hard to imagine many doctors will be on the panel.

Current medical student tuition is based upon the incomes of the current system. In that people are willing and able to take out large amounts of loans becuase under the current system it appears theyll be able to pay them off.

Not too long ago many people were willing to incur 150k in debt to attend law school because they thought they'd easily pay it back. This led to an oversupply of lawyers which caused a decrease in their wage. Now kids choosing law schools almost always go to schools that offer them a good deal (or are ranked in the top 10 thus assuring them a salary capable of paying off the debt).

For Doctors its slightly a different situation because by in large we do not set our fee's they are a function of private and public reimbursements. We are at the mercy of policy makers, and increasingly the government. Most people wouldnt mind being primary care or family practice physicians if they didnt have a debt burden.

Single Payer systems work great in other countries because the education is much cheaper. Ive talked to doc's and students from the UK they love it there, the price of school is cheap, debt burden low, hours manageable. If you switch to a single payer system, there will be some lag between that and tuition rates going down, this means a certain generation will be screwed.

I know this sounds like doomsday saying, and it may be. It may be repayments will increase or stay the same and increased patient volume as well as efficiency will mean the future is bright. In addition maybe loan forgiveness programs will be enacted since new students will be in debt to the government instead.

The physician pipeline is long, enter now and you have to look 10 years into the future to see what your life will be like. My math has set the magic number at 200k. If you can take out less than 200k you should be able to handle it. Over 200k and your going to have to wait on things like buying a home, having a nicer car, and maybe that second kid. At least for 5 years (assuming your or your spouses parents arent gonna help you out). talk to some younger doctors some will admit this much to you.

I don't dispute very much with what you've said except that the UK is not a single payer system. It is a socialized system.

The rundown, and this comes from a speaker at the Sujal Symposium held last month at the University of Michigan as part of a national meeting of Physicians for Human Rights, is this:

Health care can be divided into two components.
1. Funding
2. Delivery

These two things are often conflated, and they are related, but they are actually separate things. Using these two components, you get several types of health care systems:

1. Public health care funding and delivery - This is actual socialized medicine. Physicians and hospitals are all public. You see this in the UK with NHS. I personally don't think this system, for the entire population, can work here, but that's just my opinion.
2. Public health care funding and private health care delivery - This can be further broken down into
A. Single Payer - What Canada has
B. Social Insurance - What Germany or Japan has
In both of these systems, physicians and hospitals are all private but most health care expenditures are funded using publicly administered insurance plans. In single payer systems, private health insurance exists as supplementary insurance for whatever the government doesn't cover, but most primary care and critical procedures are definitely covered. This varies from country to country, and I'm not Canadian, so don't ask me what's covered because I don't know. Single payer systems are general paid out of general budgets. Social insurance is much like our employer based health care, but the government provides insurance for those who cannot afford it. Typically, social insurance is funded through various payroll taxes.
3. Private health care funding and delivery - This is what we have in the US, except if you're a veteran, 65 or older, below a set poverty level, or lucky enough to be employed by someone that provides taxpayer subsidized employer-based insurance (just because employees pay premiums on their health plans doesn't mean that their plans aren't subsidized by the taxpayers; such plans wouldn't exist without them). I might also add, and this is something numerous economists have said, that those who need to purchase individual plans not covered by the above in our system exist in the most dysfunctional part of our health care system.

The Affordable Care Act didn't create a socialized system, a single payer system, nor a social insurance system. All it did was regulate some of the most insidious insurance company practices (prohibiting denial of insurance for per-existing conditions), mandate everyone have insurance (that has to be purchased from private companies, not the government: remember, we lost the public option) to prevent the rampant free riding endemic to our system, and also trying to rein in costs.

We all have different opinions as to whether or not the ACA will be effective or if it is good policy. But fear mongering regarding your pay? Not only is that based on a false premise but it shows how shallow you really are if all you're concerned about is a large paycheck.

With regards to the costs of a medical education, the government is very well aware of the burdens of our debt; after all, it holds nearly all of those loans. Since health care delivery is still private, it does not control salaries. Remember this: if you enter into an income contingent repayment plan, they limit your monthly payments to 10% of income. After 25 years, whatever remains is forgiven. A friend of mine left medical school but not before asking his financial aid office about this. That is what they told him.

Here's what I was told by numerous attendings and residents, well aware of the growing debt problem: don't worry about money. If you live within your means, payments are definitely manageable. There are also numerous loan repayment incentives out there as well.

And finally, don't listen or respond to Dr. Robert. He/She is a troll. Just because someone says they are an attending doesn't mean they actually are one.

Even if this person is an actual physician (God help us all if that's true), their status as an attending doesn't mean that they know squat about health care policy. That's like arguing that your typical plumber knows all of the intricate details about fluid dynamics. They might, but they need to show you they've had the specific training/education for it.
 
The physician pipeline is long, enter now and you have to look 10 years into the future to see what your life will be like. My math has set the magic number at 200k. If you can take out less than 200k you should be able to handle it. Over 200k and your going to have to wait on things like buying a home, having a nicer car, and maybe that second kid. At least for 5 years (assuming your or your spouses parents arent gonna help you out). talk to some younger doctors some will admit this much to you.

?

Why would a person wait on buying a home once they have a salary? For what I put into my landlord's pocket each month in rent, I could easily cover a $150k mortgage at 3.85%, accumulate some equity, and get a tax deduction.

Also, people in all walks of life have multipke kids while barely being able to keep the lights on and manage to get by without having to send the children to work in the coal mines.

No offense, but I don't think this boils down to a financial or economic arguement, but what you (or others) perceive your lifestyle should be after medical school or residency.

Nothing wrong with that, but your perception doesn't equate to economic truths for the rest of us.

For example, I am happy with my POS car. Even if I had the moolah, I wouldn't buy a new one. On that regard, I am not going to spend the next five to ten years crying into my pillow that I am not driving a Lexus.
 
It's manageable in the sense of the payments are adjusted for your level of income. There's also a program that you should look into if you're concerned over the level of debt. It's called Public Service Loan Forgiveness and you can have your debts absolved after 10 years if you work in a public or a non-profit hospital. After you're a free man, you could go into private practice and buy a small country...

PSLF+IBR is a nice combo indeed. Hopefully it's still around in 4-5 years.

Of course, the non-profit jobs generally don't pay nearly as well. C'est la vie.
 
PSLF+IBR is a nice combo indeed. Hopefully it's still around in 4-5 years.

Of course, the non-profit jobs generally don't pay nearly as well. C'est la vie.

IBR is to get you through residency when you are cash strapped. Keep in mind, when your income goes up, so do the payments. At that point, I would think you would want to be aggressive with the principle.

IMO, PSLF is a good idea for those who feel drawn to public service. But as a means for paying off your debt? Why sacrifice ten years of earning to simply address debt? That lost time also carries lost opportunity to expand your practice/reputation in your chosen field and increased earning.
 
You don't have to sacrifice ten years of earning, residency training counts toward that ten year mark. So if you do medicine with a GI fellowship you could work for a university hospital for four years and have your debt wiped out.
 
You don't have to sacrifice ten years of earning, residency training counts toward that ten year mark. So if you do medicine with a GI fellowship you could work for a university hospital for four years and have your debt wiped out.

Good to know. Thanks.
 
Also, and most importantly, people that join the military purely for financial reasons are generally unhappy. Please don't do it. The government is always going to get more out of you then you are out of them.
Also, I think the notion that the HPSP is a golden ticket into competitive residencies is somewhat dubious. When you are in uniform, the "needs of the Army(or whatever)" is the la of the land. How many Dermatologists does the Army need? Not many. How many GPs does it need? A whoe bunch. Do the math.

You're stretching my words like it's a Stretch Armstrong doll, man. I never said it was a golden ticket. I said the odds were far better. While the military's needs are obvious, it doesn't affect the fact that the Army's neurosurgery ratio of applicants to positions is 1:1, with similar or otherwise much improved statistics for the other competitive fields (http://www.militarygme.org/resources/ARMY_FYGME_APPLICANTS_PER_APPROVED_POSITIONS.xls). Nevertheless, I entirely agree that you'll be unhappy in the military if you pursue HPSP without actually *wanting* to serve. But there are the few that would rather be miserable for 3 or 4 years without regret in exchange for free medical school and a stipend while attending. Though I've seen plenty in the military forum with much regret, as evidenced by their diatribes, lol.

Derm in the military: I wonder what that'd be like. LoL
 
I just wanted to say that I really appreciate the effort by SpAnKz89X to dispel some of the doomsday prophesies.👍
 


You're stretching my words like it's a Stretch Armstrong doll, man. I never said it was a golden ticket. I said the odds were far better. While the military's needs are obvious, it doesn't affect the fact that the Army's neurosurgery ratio of applicants to positions is 1:1, with similar or otherwise much improved statistics for the other competitive fields (http://www.militarygme.org/resources/ARMY_FYGME_APPLICANTS_PER_APPROVED_POSITIONS.xls). Nevertheless, I entirely agree that you'll be unhappy in the military if you pursue HPSP without actually *wanting* to serve. But there are the few that would rather be miserable for 3 or 4 years without regret in exchange for free medical school and a stipend while attending. Though I've seen plenty in the military forum with much regret, as evidenced by their diatribes, lol.

Derm in the military: I wonder what that'd be like. LoL

And I doubt those statistics. Knowing the Army that I know and love, I suspect some artful accounting with their match numbers.

The people that are willing to suffer through military service for free tuition don't just hurt themselves, they hurt the troops with their general piss poor attitude. The military is really not a creative option to finance a peron's education. I hate that the Army has sold itself as such. Plus, this isn't a peace time military. It's likely that a physician's military service will include a deployment. You couldn't pay me enough to spend another year in Afghanistan.
 
Ok, two pages of responses later, I had to comment just to clear up a few inaccuracies:

1. Medical school debt is manageable.
2. You won't really end up paying it all back under the current scheme.
3. Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) applies to ANYONE working at a non-profit with eligible federal loans (pretty much any loans you'll take during medical school that are non-private).

Let's take a scenario:

Let's say you owe $200,000 when you leave medical school and you have no additional student loan debt. You are immediately put into a 6 month grace period. You must take that. You are welcome to make interest-only payments at this point, but why bother?

After 6 months on your 45-55k resident salary you enter re-payment on the income-based repayment play (see: http://www.ibrinfo.org for more details). Let's assume you are single, have no kids, and make 50,000 per year. You would repay $420/month. As a side-note, while you are on the IBR plan the subsidized portion of your loan (probably about 45-50k) will continue to be subsidized for the first 3 years = no interest accrues. The remainder of your loan will be accuring interest at the standard 6.8% for most people.

The way that IBR works is they take your salary, subtract 150% of the poverty line (for a single person this is $16,755), and then charge you no more than 15% of the remaining value. For most it is is more like 10%.

Given that you are most likely training at a major university or some other medical center, you most likely work at a non-profit and you are considered an employee. There is a form you fill out that will certify your place of employment is a non-profit. You send this into Uncle Sam.

Now you start making monthly payments. Let's say you do a 3 year residency + 2 year fellowship, or 5 years at a PGY-x salary. You'll probably max out at around 70k. By year 5 you are only paying $670/month. This assumes you are still single and childless.

So, now you've finished fellowship, and you making those fat attending dollars at the local university/non-profit hospital. Don't forget to send in that non-profit certification sheet. Let's say you're making $200,000/year. Now you owe $2,290/month. Except not yet, since it is based on your tax return. One more year of cheap payments!

So now, you have 5.5 years of payments on the cheap and you will only owe 4.5 years of actual payments. As your salary increases above $200,000 you will most likely no longer qualify for IBR and will be paying the "standard" 10 year. Now, make your remaining payments to get to 120 monthly payments.

Once you have done this the balance of your loans will be forgiven, and you will have barely paid the principal. This is a new program that applies to loan payments made after 10/1/2007 and will start in 2017 (the first batch of 10 years).

If this program goes away then things will be much scarier, but for now it seems reasonable to me. This is especially true for people in long residencies (neurosurg). They could be on IBR for almost 9 years and only have to pay 1 year of full payments. IBR does not even cover the interest only payments, so someone before this plan would have had huge interest just for completing residency.

Hopefully this clarifies things a bit.

"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen."
What we cannot speak of we must pass over in silence.



I've read quite a few threads on here concerning med school debt and have come away with mixed messages. I know that in med school (assuming I get in), I will rely almost exclusively on financial aid (mostly loans unless I'm lucky enough to earn a scholarship/grant) to pay for the total COA. I know that many if not most students are in a similar situation as mine in which they are left to pay for everything more or less on their own, so in the real world, is graduating with principle debt of >200K really manageable? I would have to think so as many people find themselves in this situation, I mean, how many 1%er's decide to go to medical school?🙄
 
Did you not actually read the whole post? That's assuming worst case scenario across the board. If I racked up 280K in loans and went into general peds I'd probably **** my pants. If you're that stupid you deserve to live like a resident until you're 40. Anyone who's that far in the hole should be studying for Step 1 for a year straight just to make sure they won't match into FM or peds.

Oh btw DrRoberts is actually an attending (you just have to look at past post history to figure that out). He's just one of the anesthesiologists who likes to chill out on SDN. They all have quite the opinion on Obamacare probably because they don't want anything to cut into their 300K+ salaries.

280 in loans is not an unrealistic number when you add the interest that is accrued in medical school to the principle. The idea that budding pediatricians or FM docs have to blow away step I to match into a higher paying field they don't want to go into is a little bit goofy.

I am puzzled by this notion that student debt impoverishes people. I have several close friends who are businessmen who borrowed a large note to start businesses (seven or eight figures). On top of paying their note, they are also covering overhead. As soon as they paid their first note off, they borrowed again to expand and grow their business. The point is, they live with debt. It's a cost of doing business. They simply know how to leverage it and be smart about it.

Compared to expected revenue, student debt is pennies on the dollar and a safe investment. Compare student loans to the hoops you have to jump through for a home loan, and it's obvious that lenders deem student loans to be a safe bet.

As a side note: I am grateful for attendings who take the time to contribute to threads here. I will certainly listen respectfully when they are discussing their area of expertise. However, board certification doesn't confer expertise on evey other facet of life. Especially emotionally charged issues like politics. I've heard attending physicians say some really goofy things. So in that regard, I don't afford them the power of fiatt.
 
Ok, two pages of responses later, I had to comment just to clear up a few inaccuracies:

1. Medical school debt is manageable.
2. You won't really end up paying it all back under the current scheme.
3. Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) applies to ANYONE working at a non-profit with eligible federal loans (pretty much any loans you'll take during medical school that are non-private).

Let's take a scenario:

Let's say you owe $200,000 when you leave medical school and you have no additional student loan debt. You are immediately put into a 6 month grace period. You must take that. You are welcome to make interest-only payments at this point, but why bother?

After 6 months on your 45-55k resident salary you enter re-payment on the income-based repayment play (see: http://www.ibrinfo.org for more details). Let's assume you are single, have no kids, and make 50,000 per year. You would repay $420/month. As a side-note, while you are on the IBR plan the subsidized portion of your loan (probably about 45-50k) will continue to be subsidized for the first 3 years = no interest accrues. The remainder of your loan will be accuring interest at the standard 6.8% for most people.

The way that IBR works is they take your salary, subtract 150% of the poverty line (for a single person this is $16,755), and then charge you no more than 15% of the remaining value. For most it is is more like 10%.

Given that you are most likely training at a major university or some other medical center, you most likely work at a non-profit and you are considered an employee. There is a form you fill out that will certify your place of employment is a non-profit. You send this into Uncle Sam.

Now you start making monthly payments. Let's say you do a 3 year residency + 2 year fellowship, or 5 years at a PGY-x salary. You'll probably max out at around 70k. By year 5 you are only paying $670/month. This assumes you are still single and childless.

So, now you've finished fellowship, and you making those fat attending dollars at the local university/non-profit hospital. Don't forget to send in that non-profit certification sheet. Let's say you're making $200,000/year. Now you owe $2,290/month. Except not yet, since it is based on your tax return. One more year of cheap payments!

So now, you have 5.5 years of payments on the cheap and you will only owe 4.5 years of actual payments. As your salary increases above $200,000 you will most likely no longer qualify for IBR and will be paying the "standard" 10 year. Now, make your remaining payments to get to 120 monthly payments.

Once you have done this the balance of your loans will be forgiven, and you will have barely paid the principal. This is a new program that applies to loan payments made after 10/1/2007 and will start in 2017 (the first batch of 10 years).

If this program goes away then things will be much scarier, but for now it seems reasonable to me. This is especially true for people in long residencies (neurosurg). They could be on IBR for almost 9 years and only have to pay 1 year of full payments. IBR does not even cover the interest only payments, so someone before this plan would have had huge interest just for completing residency.

Hopefully this clarifies things a bit.

"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen."
What we cannot speak of we must pass over in silence.

I was told that deferments are granted during residency.
 
For those looking into HPSP, please be aware that your health may preclude you from receiving the scholarship. I just found that out the other day. Something as simple as high blood pressure, your weight, or an inability to run a mile within a certain time limit for any reason can nix your eligibility. They Navy and Air Force seem to have more lax standards regarding health than the Army, though. Also pay attention to the fact that you're required to apply to the military residency match, ranking two specialties. If you fail to match both, then and only then can you apply to the NRMP (normal match). The military match is awesome in some respects (i.e., better chance for matching to competitive specialties since you're competing with far less grads), but lacks in other respects (e.g., limited specialties by branch, much more limited in potential hospitals).

The bolded is false. You can ask for a civilian deferment for internship or residency or both though you probably won't get it. It depends on the expected needs of the service, and changes from year to year. You have to apply for a military internship, but you don't have to apply for multiple residencies, or even one. You can pay your time back after internship and get out, if that's what you want. Many do this in the Navy and go on to civilian residency. The military cannot force you to apply for or accept a residency you don't want. Though I guess they can make you do a military internship, as you are required to do one to pay back your time.
 
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The bolded is false. You can ask for a civilian deferment for internship or residency or both though you probably won't get it. It depends on the expected needs of the service, and changes from year to year. You have to apply for a military internship, but you don't have to apply for multiple residencies, or even one. You can pay your time back after internship and get out, if that's what you want. Many do this in the Navy and go on to civilian residency. The military cannot force you to apply for or accept a residency you don't want. Though I guess they can make you do a military internship, as you are required to do one to pay back your time.

I respectfully direct you to my source: http://medicine.creighton.edu/MMSA/hpspinfo.htm I don't BS, but may be reading from an outdated source or may have misinterpreted the facts. About a third of the way down the page you'll find the following paragraph:

HPSP info said:
Do I have to do a military residency?​

No. However, you do have to apply to the military match first. To fill all the required numbers, the selection board expects for HPSP students to go into both military and civilian positions available for each specialty. You may indicate your preference for a civilian residency, but it is not guaranteed that you will get it. If you are selected for a civilian residency, then you simply go through the civilian match (fill out your ERAS application, etc.). If the selection board does not match you into your first or second choice of specialty, then you will do a transitional year and reapply the next year. The benefit to this system is that you get more points on your application after doing a transitional year in the military system. The opposite is true in the civilian world.


I guess you could read the above as supportive of being required to match to a military internship first and subsequently repaying your time as GP. Although, I did read elsewhere that the GP path is in the process of being phased out.

Anyway, just citing my source. Cheers.​
 
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Just go to your state school and only rack up ~100k in debt.

Problem solved, crisis averted.
 
Just go to your state school and only rack up ~100k in debt.

Problem solved, crisis averted.

Not everyone's state school(s) is (are) that cheap. For example, my current top choice state school costs $58k a year. Other states are much, much more expensive.