I've recently gotten into med school and with a lot of spare time on my hands now, I've been reading stuff online about doctor's lifestyle, work compensation, malpractice, etc. I'm getting scared because the general consensus is that primary care doctors are not going to make enough considering how much schooling they've done and how much they've invested into their education. I will be well over $300k into debt (undergrad + med school loans) and I originally, and still kind of, want to specialize in internal medicine and work in an outpatient center in the future. Looking online, this will mean I'll make ~$150-200k/year before taxes. After taxes, malpractice insurance, and loan repayments, this number will probably be more than 50% less. Is it still worth doing internal medicine and being a "regular doctor"? I'm now thinking about either sub-specializing within IM or gunning for a competitive specialty like radiology, dermatology, or ENT straight out of med school. It's sad because one of my main motivations for doing medicine was how much of a role model my family doctor (who's IM) was and I wanted to be just like him but nowadays, I feel like just being a primary care/family doc isn't worth all the money, time, and effort every medical school student invests.
Is medicine worth it if I want to go into internal medicine?
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I don't really know how you are calculating everything but from experience I think something is off. My mother is a pediatrician and worked in primary care. She didn't own her own practice and worked at a large branch off a hospital so her 'costs' were minimal. She had a 9-5 job with almost no calls and made the $150-200k you mentioned. My family lives in the midwest....that's a TON of money. I would never say that my family doesn't live very comfortably.
All that aside, there are definitely easier ways to make more money than by becoming a doctor. If your goal is to live very comfortably (and it's a fine goal, SDN judgement be damned) then I suggest you learn how to code and work as a software engineer. My out of college friends with a computer science degree had starting salaries of $90k+. If you are dedicated to going into medicine because that's the work you want to do, then you will shape your future as it comes and everything will work out fine. I have been told that most pre-meds change their specialty preference at least once when they become medical students.
All that aside, there are definitely easier ways to make more money than by becoming a doctor. If your goal is to live very comfortably (and it's a fine goal, SDN judgement be damned) then I suggest you learn how to code and work as a software engineer. My out of college friends with a computer science degree had starting salaries of $90k+. If you are dedicated to going into medicine because that's the work you want to do, then you will shape your future as it comes and everything will work out fine. I have been told that most pre-meds change their specialty preference at least once when they become medical students.
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I've had so many doctors tell me medicine isn't worth it and to do something else. I've honestly lost count of how many doctors have said this to me because I've heard it so many times. Even from docs in competitive and well paying specialties. A dermatologist once told me if he could do it again he would never choose medicine. In contrast I've also met some primary care docs who don't make as much money but love what they do and wouldn't do anything else. I know a fairly young pediatrician who graduated from NYMC (which is private) and has a ton of debt (he told me it is over 200k). Despite this he said he wouldn't be doing anything else because he loves peds. Ultimately only you can decide if it is worth it to you.
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If your take home pay after all loan expenses and taxes is near or at six figures, you will have a comfortable lifestyle by most people's standards. Whether it is comfortable enough for you is entirely based on your own opinion and expectations. Whether it is worth it is entirely based on your own opinion. Basically, no one can tell you whether you will earn "enough". What we can tell you is, if you don't spend way beyond your means, you will still have a decent home, good lifestyle, a nice chunk of money to spend on whatever you want, no matter what specialty you go into. Maybe earning more money is worth abandoning a specialty you want to go into; that is up to you. Whether primary care is "worth it" is also entirely your call to make. The plus side to primary care is, reimbursement rates have been cut so much up to now that these specialties (IM, Peds, FM) are the least likely to see significant pay cuts in the near term.
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As a doctor, you will be able to pay off your loans and live comfortably. Very few doctors earn less than $150,000 (before taxes but after malpractice) without making some deliberately career-limiting choices -- eg. working part-time. If it's important to you, you will be able to make considerably more by specializing and/or choosing your practice carefully.
As a software engineer, MBA-type, or lawyer, if you're really good at your job and really good at all the other stuff you need to do to get ahead (company politics, sales), you will probably be able to make the same. If you're not so good at either the work or the schmoozing, you will make considerably less. If you're reach CEO, law partner or land in a successful tech start-up, you could eventually make much, much more. Until then, though, you will almost certainly have to 'pay your dues', work your tail off, most likely at some point, work for an idiot who is much less intelligent and much less capable than you, put in LONG hours, eat the proverbial poop hot dog on occasion, and do soul-suckingly boring, frustrating or ethically-grey work. There are upsides, of course. But if you're considering the downsides of medicine, don't overlook the downsides of the alternative.
Most importantly, look at the career satisfaction, the life satisfaction each option provides. Making money is only one measure of the successful life, and I would argue, not the best one. The whole purpose of earning money is to allow you to live the kind of live you want to live and provide a good and secure life for the people you love. For that, you need 'enough' -- not 'the most'.
As a software engineer, MBA-type, or lawyer, if you're really good at your job and really good at all the other stuff you need to do to get ahead (company politics, sales), you will probably be able to make the same. If you're not so good at either the work or the schmoozing, you will make considerably less. If you're reach CEO, law partner or land in a successful tech start-up, you could eventually make much, much more. Until then, though, you will almost certainly have to 'pay your dues', work your tail off, most likely at some point, work for an idiot who is much less intelligent and much less capable than you, put in LONG hours, eat the proverbial poop hot dog on occasion, and do soul-suckingly boring, frustrating or ethically-grey work. There are upsides, of course. But if you're considering the downsides of medicine, don't overlook the downsides of the alternative.
Most importantly, look at the career satisfaction, the life satisfaction each option provides. Making money is only one measure of the successful life, and I would argue, not the best one. The whole purpose of earning money is to allow you to live the kind of live you want to live and provide a good and secure life for the people you love. For that, you need 'enough' -- not 'the most'.
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In medicine, hard work will pay off financially with a solid earning potential and a (hopefully) rewarding day to day job.
In business, engineering, finance, etc, hard work may never pay off. For every brilliant Musk and Buffet, there are a thousand brilliant middle class workers waiting for their success story.
In business, engineering, finance, etc, hard work may never pay off. For every brilliant Musk and Buffet, there are a thousand brilliant middle class workers waiting for their success story.
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what would you rather do for a living?
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Why would anyone willingly discuss take-home salary during an interview?! Anyway, personally, I think all these debates about potential future salaries are a waste of time. We all know the health care system is currently being restructured, and I'm sure the Affordable Care Act is just the tip of the iceberg. Future changes to the healthcare system will undoubtedly have an impact on a physician's salary. My philosophy is to study hard and try to become the best physician I can be, and worry about things I can actually control. I can control (to some extent) what specialty I will enter, and I am sure that whatever the compensation ends up being, it will be adequate to repay my loans and live comfortably. If I work really hard and I am the best at what I do, then I will earn enough to live really comfortably.
A previous poster mentioned that those in business and other non-medical fields have to "pay their dues" before they start earning large salaries. In my opinion, pre-med, med school, and residency is the equivalent of paying your dues. Kick butt now, do something you love, do it well, and the money will come.
A previous poster mentioned that those in business and other non-medical fields have to "pay their dues" before they start earning large salaries. In my opinion, pre-med, med school, and residency is the equivalent of paying your dues. Kick butt now, do something you love, do it well, and the money will come.
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probably because before you get in you're busy with the helping people if you don't get paid nonsense but then you realize that you'll be carrying a quarter of a million dollars in debt and it has to be paid back
money is something that we don't feel comfortable talking about. we know about the treatments people need, side effects, mechanism of action but no one wants to have a discussion about cost since we're supposed to be altruistic and caring by default.
also it doesn't feel real until after you get accepted and class is about to start. it's called imposter syndrome and it's very common. when i started i was wondering if i was really in medical school and learning to be a doctor
then you're like jesus are these people seriously going to trust me with making decisions that affect other people's lives
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I had a very interesting interaction with an interviewer at one of my schools:
She spoke to me about how happy she was that it seems like the current applicants coming into medical school are doing it "for the right reasons". To her the right reasons were altruism, service, improvement of society, etc. She was a relatively young physician (would guess mid-40s) and she spoke of how physicians of the last generation (trained in the 70s and 80s) went into medicine to get rich or for a certain status.
I can see how people of this generation who went into medicine for these reasons aren't the most positive about its prospects for the future. Salaries have hit a wall and there is continued added bureaucracy and paperwork. I think that the more competitive of the specialty that you talk to, the more likely it is that they carry these sentiments. The people who went into these sub-specialties back when they were training were likely the ones carrying this make $$, gain prestige mentality.
You know your reasons for becoming a physician and don't let anything (especially negative old-timers) get in the way of them. 🙂
She spoke to me about how happy she was that it seems like the current applicants coming into medical school are doing it "for the right reasons". To her the right reasons were altruism, service, improvement of society, etc. She was a relatively young physician (would guess mid-40s) and she spoke of how physicians of the last generation (trained in the 70s and 80s) went into medicine to get rich or for a certain status.
I can see how people of this generation who went into medicine for these reasons aren't the most positive about its prospects for the future. Salaries have hit a wall and there is continued added bureaucracy and paperwork. I think that the more competitive of the specialty that you talk to, the more likely it is that they carry these sentiments. The people who went into these sub-specialties back when they were training were likely the ones carrying this make $$, gain prestige mentality.
You know your reasons for becoming a physician and don't let anything (especially negative old-timers) get in the way of them. 🙂
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Not completely true. Ortho attendings that are around 60 years old entered residency when the field was undesirable. It was only in the past couple decades that ortho has become highly competitive. There were a lot of breakthroughs in the field, like laparoscopic surgery, that shortened procedure times and increased salaries and lifestyles tremendously. Now, ortho is one of the highest paid specialties and one of the most competitive. The older ortho attendings absolutely did not go into ortho for the big money and prestige, though they definitely are swimming in it now.
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Sure. One of a dozen highly paid specialties. I believe you, but I think her general sentiments were more that the vast majority of people going into medicine were doing it for the "wrong reasons" as she put it. I was kind of put off guard that she put it that way.
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It's one example, but medical fields definitely change over the decades that many attendings have been practicing. I highly doubt that most older physicians went into medicine for "the wrong reasons."
I think many are unhappy for different reasons. Absolutely no one wants their salary to decrease, regardless of how much money they are already making. A drop in salary makes it seem like the work you are doing isn't respected. As you career progresses, one hopes for better lifestyles, not more and more paperwork, less patient time, and less reimbursement.
You and I are going into medicine now knowing the turmoil in the field. Older physicians are now having to adapt to that turmoil, and are justifiably unhappy about it.
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Haha wasn't my opinion, man. It was the opinion of the neurologist who interviewed me.
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Lol yeah. You should have sacrificed that interview and told her she was wrong. Unless that was at U Chicago, then it probably was worth it to go along with what she was saying rofl.
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Are applicants more altruistic than those in the 70s and 80s or are the pre-med requirements changing in a way that makes applicants seem like they are more altruistic? Are schools adding unwritten rules like clinical volunteering, non-clinical volunteering, fluffy secondary questions about service/helping the underserved, etc. and then patting themselves on the back when every appicant seems like Mother Teresa?
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No, not really. If it is brought up, it's easy to lie.
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Not even interviews. Internet research can answer a bunch of those questions :O
SDN, is one goldmine of information. Surely users of this site aren't usually ones who are completely blind about their career decisions 😛
SDN, is one goldmine of information. Surely users of this site aren't usually ones who are completely blind about their career decisions 😛
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I seriously don't know what I'd do with more than $50K a year. Maybe another $10K after taxes would mean I didn't need a housemate. But beyond that, I'd be able to put it all toward my med school loans. I think I can handle that sacrifice for a few years. 😉
So being an internist looks fine to me.
So being an internist looks fine to me.
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I'm sorry but I haven't visited SDN in a while and I've noticed a lot of threads concerning money. This is making me chuckle. Consider the amount of **** you will go through to make at least $200k a year. If you studied that hard for half as much time I guarantee you'd make more money as a stock broker, freelance investor, or hedge fund manager. Just worry about getting good grades man and forget about the rest. I work as a cop in the Midwest and I clear $100,000 a year with minimal overtime (also my job only requires a HS diploma). There are many others around here like that too. We're sacrificing almost everything for a stab at a very prestigious and arduous journey that may collapse at any given moment. Just please quit worrying about the salary. You will live comfortably no matter what. Just get into a school, graduate, and worry about the money part AFTER you receive your first real paycheck.
If you wanted to make a big salary, there are better careers suited for this (ie business, law, finance). There so much hassle to be a doctor, if money (financial security) is your only motivation, then don't bother because you will be MISERABLE.
If you genuinely want to do internal med (as do I), then just do it. Budget your finances for the REST YOUR LIFE, starting right now. Then you'll be fine. I read Rich Dad Poor Dad, basically more money = more problems if you don't know how to budget. Big bucks and big expenses = low savings. Big bucks and small expenses = accumulated wealth.
If you genuinely want to do internal med (as do I), then just do it. Budget your finances for the REST YOUR LIFE, starting right now. Then you'll be fine. I read Rich Dad Poor Dad, basically more money = more problems if you don't know how to budget. Big bucks and big expenses = low savings. Big bucks and small expenses = accumulated wealth.
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Dark has a good point - try to live way below your means. If you took one glance at me walking down the street, you would think I am a regular Joe Blow. Yeah, I clear six figures, single, no kids, but I drive a smoky and rusted '97 Volkswagen diesel. I wear Old Navy jeans like 10 years old. Don't blow YOUR money. Make YOUR money work for YOU.
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have you ever supported yourself?
as a resident who makes ~$50k/year, I'll tell you it's not hard to know what you'd do with more than $50k/year.
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Business, Finance, Law? I wouldn't consider those as "things to go into rather than medicine if money is your goal". I'd say that's more computer science.
Like only the most prestigious specialties will really be rich, only the top lawyers and top entrepreneurs will be raking in dough. The other people who don't cut it in finance or law don't get to even "live comfortably". I'd say medicine is a pretty good career if a comfortable lifestyle is what you're after. If what you're after is more money, business, finance, law, or medicine is equally hard to make it big in. And if you don't make it big in any of the three, the guy who doesn't make it big in medicine will have the best lifestyle.
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Yeah, administration really is where the money is. And that's something you can do as a MD if you're interested but still want to practice medicine (at least for some period of time).
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Yes, I have supported myself financially and completely independently for 14 years (no spouse, no parental boost). You are talking to a non-trad here, obviously. Have you ever worked full time outside of medicine? I put in 10 years making around $50K. I worked weekends and late nights for up to 60 hours a week. I had a job I loved but did not compensate well. I still managed to save for a down payment on a ~$150K house, make the mortgage payments, have a $250/mo car payment, pay off my undergrad loans, save 8 percent a year for retirement, and travel overseas 2 or 3 weeks a year. I had one housemate to help with expenses, and that brought in another $10K. But I'm thinking by the time I get out of med school, I'd appreciate not living with a housemate. 🙂
I currently make ~$25K/year. I have three housemates to help me get by, no car payment, save 2 percent for retirement, and have managed to pay for two app cycles with my only travel being to interviews. It stinks. I long for the days I made $50K/year. However, I do not have med school debt... yet.
I am starting to think med schools should require all applicants to take a few years off after college to work full time. As a resident, you are making what many middle Americans would be ecstatic to earn. However, you are also likely to be saddled with debt and I get that. So for me, anything I can make over $50K to cover my student loan payments means I'm doing all right. I'd be doing what I am dying to do and have worked so hard to get there. If I wanted to be a millionaire I would not be going to medical school. I'd be selling something or in banking.
The problem I have with going into business, finance, computer science, etc etc is that for all those jobs, you are replaceable once you become 50 years old. When you're 50, there's brighter 20 year olds straight out of college that a company will higher over you because they're brains work faster and they have more stamina and energy. I know this because both my parents right now are in IT, and they have already been put off work by several companies due to their age. They used to make ~$200k/year each but now they're making <$75k/year each. I bet the same goes for business careers and other jobs as well. However, for medicine, a 80 year old doctor is worth a lot more than a 30 year old doctor straight out of residency. Essentially, I'm told that you're worth more as you age.
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Different areas of the country have vastly different costs of living. This needs to be taken into account. Making 50k a year when you live in say the NY metro area is not the same as making 50k a year in most other areas of the country.
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There is a solid upwards trajectory in medicine, but don't be fooled into thinking you can't be fired from a private practice or hospital work as a doctor. In any field, if you don't keep up with the times, you will fall behind and you will become replaceable. In medicine, the vast amount of knowledge and experience makes it hard for a newly minted doctor to replace a senior doctor, but that doesn't make it impossible. What about a 40 yr old doctor replacing a 70 yr old?
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True, but you make that choice as to where to live, how to live, and where to apply to med school and to residencies. I have lived in the expensive metro area and the suburbs 1 hour away. The big city is fun but it's not the best place to live if you want space, a car, etc and be able to afford a kid or two. Everyone makes these tradeoffs. Being a resident does not make you unique in this regard.
Again, I'm not saying $50K is a TON of money. But if you think you can't live OK off of that as a single person for a few years until you start pulling down $150K, you have serious entitlement problems.
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It's not always that simple though, some people have unique circumstances. For example I have a friend in med school right now, he is nontrad and started at 30. He already had a good deal of debt from doing an SMP before starting med school and he didn't get into any of his state schools so he's going into a lot of debt for med school. he's also married, his wife has student debt from law school and is actually not making good money right now in law. They are in a tough spot. He loves medicine and isn't doing it for the money.
It's true most people ultimately do have a choice in where to live but again you may sacrifice your family in that decision. For example I'm from the NY metro area and it's very expensive to live here. I would be better off financially living somewhere else but my entire family lives here. I'm very close with my family so leaving would be a difficult decision for me. When I settle down and have kids I would like my kids to be able to see their grandparents and aunts and uncles.
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I am also a non-trad, and I'm guessing our big difference is either the fact that I'm married with a kid on the way or that you're willing to have 3 roommates. Something about being a physician and living like I'm in college doesn't appeal to me.
My wife and I bring in very good money thanks to her job, and I'm starting to see how people can say that 6 figures really doesn't go as far as you think. Sure, we could be a lot better about budgeting money, but that money just doesn't go as far as you'd think.
Kudos to you for getting so much done with so little money, but it's not my desire to live like that.
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I can't imagine very many people in their 30s, after going through pre-med and med school and basically working non-stop, would be okay with living with 3 roommates like a college kid. I certainly would not be happy with that and I'm pretty low maintenance and don't spend a lot of money
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I'm in my 20s, and I did not want to live with roommates after college. It was fun there, but afterwards, would prefer lots of quiet and personal space. Agreed that 50K can only go so far. It's easier if you are single, and COL is low(thank the lord I'm not renting a 1800/mo studio!). However, it can add up, with bills, loans, insurance, grocery, etc.
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Living with housemates is a nice compromise. You have your own room and personal space, but you're in a shared living space so you still get that social time/cheaper living.
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These are all good points, but I'm not exactly ENJOYING living with three housemates. It helps that my house has three levels. I would love to be living on my own or with just my significant other. However, I made certain sacrifices for this dream I have. Most of us have made sacrifices on some level. But some of you seem to miss the point that these are all choices. We make choices as to whether we live near family, get married, marry someone with school debt, take on school debt, go to school at all, have kids, go out to dinner five times a week, travel overseas, etc. I maintain that $50K is livable for one person for most of the country outside of some major metro areas, NY, California who chooses to be financially responsible.
NOTE: I am living the way I am on $25K, not $50K. At $50K I would be housemate-less. Guaranteed. The point was that I have done it and in my area of the Northeast, about an hour from a metro area, it worked. I grew up in an area where the same house would cost three times as much. I would not be able to have the same lifestyle at $50K there. But thankfully, you can sit tight because in a few years, your salary will jump 300% or more.
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As I said above, I am not ENJOYING it. LOL
If I were married and had a spouse bringing in big bucks, I would kick out these housemates and enjoy our private space. And if I had a kid on the way ... well obviously it makes sense for you not have roommates. It's not for everyone.
A six-figure income is a luxury most people will never see. It's amazing what you can learn to do without. If you've never tried really cutting your budget, I'd recommend giving it a shot. I like Dave Ramsey for the most part. He has some good tips. I used to spend $600/mo just for me on groceries and eating out when I made $50K. Obviously I couldn't do that on half the salary. I learned to shop smart and cook smart and now my bf and I eat really good meals almost all cooked at home for $300/mo for two of us. We even get takeout a few times a month. That's going from $14,400 a year to $3,600 a year for food for two people. And we eat well.
I hate to admit it, but it can actually be kind of fun to cut back. We took a five-day trip to Florida last month. If I did it the way I would have in the past, it would have cost us close to $2,000 for the two of us. Using his savvy frugal traveler techniques, we got it down to under $1,000 for two people, including car rental, food, booze, sightseeing and flights. We also had a nice hotel. A couple years ago, I would have said it's worth the time saved to just pay $2,000 and do it the easy way. Having a small income makes you creative.
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yea and then when people are forcing you to pay two thousand dollars for some bs multiple choice exam, i hope that creativity helps a lot
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-practicing bread and butter medicine
-going from college graduate to fully trained physician in as few as 7 years
-multiple opportunities to do fellowships in a variety of fields
-essentially guaranteed six figure income
-ability to work almost anywhere and in almost any environment, be it private practice, hospital-based, academic, etc.
Nope, not worth it.
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-going from college graduate to fully trained physician in as few as 7 years
-multiple opportunities to do fellowships in a variety of fields
-essentially guaranteed six figure income
-ability to work almost anywhere and in almost any environment, be it private practice, hospital-based, academic, etc.
Nope, not worth it.
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😆😆😆😆🤣🤣🤣🤣
holy **** LMFAO. tell her to go to the local university and sit in organic chemistry if she wants to see all the "altruism", "caring", and "empathy" premeds have. theyre really improving society. or better yet tell her to check their mcat scores for perfect indicators of how altruistic they are (thanks to the amcas that is now possible).
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Exactly. Part of the reason is over the decades, so many professions have dried up and disappeared. Hence the flocking to healthcare occupations. This isn't the 60s/70s anymore.
Millenials are the complete opposite, esp. bc of the level of debt they take. Back then people chose specialties bc they intellectually liked it bc 1) they didn't have much debt and 2) all of medicine paid well, so best to go with your intellectual interest. The ridiculous level of med school debt makes intellectual interest not the only factor. Primary to riches/prestige is actually lifestyle for your typical graduating millenial medical student.
https://www.aamc.org/download/283608/data/minor-communcatingeffectively.pdf
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- 2,371
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sounds about right. i really wish our school system was more affordable. it's such a contradiction to hear about learning and choosing the career path you enjoy the most is what school's all about and being plunged into so much debt throughout the process (it's really just a rehearsed line people have learned to say often times). if you ask me they could have replaced all the slides in the powerpoint with $$$$$$$ signs.
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A 1-year archeo for THIS, Dermhoney? Really lol?
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2009
- Messages
- 17,237
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- 13,032
It hasn't been a year. People have bumped up threads that are old enough to enter middle school.
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2013
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There are definitely quite a few pre-meds who are perfectly tailored for Goldman-Sachs.
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2009
- Messages
- 2,244
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My husband is 54, this is a very real concern for us as he is in IT. However, your salary is depending on your expertise and you must keep up. Data backup, recovery and restore will make someone a ton of money.
He is now making more than he did before even after being downsized due to a variety of reasons. He has also never made 200K a year and has been in IT for over 30 years.
