Is Note-Taking equally distributed amongst the Specialties

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omn

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Do we have enough cross residency data / experience where it is general knowledge that there are specialties which have a relative poverty in Note Taking requirements, and others which are most bountiful?

Are all specialties equal in their "Note taking" time requirements.. for example.. my understanding is that (contrary to intuition), that surgery has extensive demands for patient note taking.. perhaps one of the highest..? .. not sure what specialty would rank at the bottom...

Is there a specialty that is known to have a real dearth of Note-taking?

I'm not saying here, clearly, that one specialty would be better than another because of it...

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Hmmm....I'm not sure about surgery having "extensive note taking" requirements at least not any more than any other specialty. I mean it annoys me that I have to write a post op note and dictate the same note (and that the post op note has to be written before the patient can be discharged from the PACU as if it makes one hill of beans difference in patient care) but surgical notes are pretty short in comparison to my medicine and psychiatry colleagues.

If you're looking for a specialty that writes few notes, you're not going to find it: we are in an era of more documentation, not less.
 
With the caveat that I'm merely an M2, it's my impression that specialties that are primarily treating patients longitudinally (e.g. FM) have lower note burden than specialties who's patients are incidental (e.g. EM) since the latter has to write new notes for most every patient while the former can copy-paste old notes with some updating.
 
IM has long notes. and a lot of notes.

Surgery may have a lot of notes, but they're generally short, much, much shorter than the IM notes.

I agree that longitudinal specialties, including any of those with mostly clinic time, can have notes copied forward and added to.
 
Do we have enough cross residency data / experience where it is general knowledge that there are specialties which have a relative poverty in Note Taking requirements, and others which are most bountiful?

Are all specialties equal in their "Note taking" time requirements.. for example.. my understanding is that (contrary to intuition), that surgery has extensive demands for patient note taking.. perhaps one of the highest..? .. not sure what specialty would rank at the bottom...

Is there a specialty that is known to have a real dearth of Note-taking?

I'm not saying here, clearly, that one specialty would be better than another because of it...

All physicians should write a note anytime they see a patient. A note has three general purposes:

1) Documentation of the course of medical care for continuity both within your field and among other physicians taking care of the patient.
2) Billing
3) Protection against liability

If you do the first purpose well, explaining your reasoning, what has happened to the patient, and what you plan on doing with them, the third is generally fulfilled. The problem runs into with billing requirements.

I can write a clear note outlining a patients history with an issue with a few lines of HPI and then write a focused assessment/plan that alludes to the relevant physical/lab/imaging findings. This is a nice, compact note that is informative to other physicians, should serve to protect me from liability, and would lead to me (or my attending given I'm in fellowship) not being paid anything for the encounter because I didn't tick enough boxes. These are the notes I write when it's an inpatient followup I/my attending didn't physically see that day, but simply reviewed the chart, because it's easier to both write and read (and we aren't billing for a chart review anyway).

What does that mean? Well, when I see a patient in consultation and bill a level 4 visit (out of 5), which is the most common in most fields I'm aware of, I must document 4 elements of HPI, a 10+ system ROS, a comprehensive past medical/surgical/social/family history, an 8+ system physical exam, and enough data to support moderate complexity in my medical decision making. This tends to bloat up the note. (Of note, a level 5 visit has the same exact requirements except that you just need to support high complexity rather than moderate).

Why can surgeons get away with writing a shorter note? Well, a surgical consult note is usually the same length (and has to meet the same checkboxes)... but inpatient and outpatient post surgical followup notes can't be billed off of if they fall in the post-op global period. They don't give a care about billing off a post-op note because they *can't* bill off it... just for the surgery itself. Also, even when it's a non-operative patient, old habits die hard, and surgical notes tend to be shorter overall. Medical notes also tend to go into further detail regarding management of comorbidites, both because we feel it's good for patient care and also because it helps support a higher level of medical decisionmaking for billing purposes.

There are no specialties that have fewer "note taking" requirements than "write a note anytime you interact with a patient", though there's specialties that don't really see patients that much (diagnostic radiology if you don't do procedures, pathology) that have their own documentation burdens. Residents of course write many of the notes for academic attendings. Many doctors outside of academia also have scribes or assistants that write the notes for them as well. I know one Dermatologist that has MAs do all the documentation along with taking pictures of the relevant rashes, so he can just tell them the plan and move on to the next patient. But those are individual circumstances.
 
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this is good news... thanks !
 
I think I've accomplished ALL in the space allotted... thanks for the sharing your wonderfulled insight
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Psychiatry has the most extensive note taking out of any other specialty. You're documentation needs to be spotless as well and you need to document why the patient meets criteria for inpatient hospitalization if you are doing inpatient. You really need to be good at creative writing if going into Psychiatry.
 
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You're documentation needs to be spotless as well and you need to document why the patient meets criteria for inpatient hospitalization if you are doing inpatient. You really need to be good at creative writing if going into Psychiatry.
I agree that psychiatry notes are the longest, but I don't agree with the rest of your post. Psych notes don't have to be more spotless than others. In all fields you have to justify inpatient hospitalization if you are keeping a patient in the hospital. And creative writing doesn't really have a role in a medical note unless you're making it longer and less readable than necessary.
 
I would have to say Psych. We have the longest H&P's I have seen. Others tell me they hate having to read our notes. They are like novels.

Neurology notes are quite long but I'm not sure how they compare to psych notes because I don't have access to outpatient psych notes. A note can be 6-7 pages long for a new patient H&P depending on the clinic.
 
From my experience inpatient psychiatry notes have the greatest variability in terms of quality of any service. About 75% of the time they are entirely templates with a bunch of ICD-10 codes with maybe 2 actual sentences. The other 25% of the time you get a really extensive well thought out note that actually helps with patient management. In both cases they are long as hell.
 
Neurosurgery seems to have the shortest notes...

"Had BM yesterday. Wound looks good. Consult PMNR"

(Despite them working with us all the time, we figure they write PMNR instead of PM&R because of the split second longer it takes to reach for the "&". That or they just don't know/care there's an ampersand, which is probably more likely...)

I've seen some neurology and ID attendings write an entire page of assessment when they cosign a resident's note. Makes me wonder if they ever go home--the notes always seem to be cosigned in the late evening.

Some PCP notes get ridiculously long. I can't say how many I see where they copy and paste every specialty physician's assessment & plan, instead of just paraphrasing it. One person didn't change the font, so it took me forever to figure out what the PCP wrote and what the specialist wrote. Of all the notes I've read, PCP notes are the most over-bloated (to meet billing requirements, I assume).
 
The EMR generated notes are a lot more full of fluff and useless crap compared to old school dictated notes. I can look up the meds on a patient quickly within the EMR, I don't need 3 pages of them listed in each provider's note.

It's hard to find the 4 lines necessary about interval history and assessment and plan (the new one, not the one copy and pasted from previous notes).

I wish there was a balance of copying forward an overall synopsis on the patient (adding to it as necessary), then having a separate section for what has happened since the last note, then whatever the NEW A/P (can include copied sections but shouldn't discuss stuff from 6 months ago if not relevant now).

This is based on the outpatient setting.
 
The EMR generated notes are a lot more full of fluff and useless crap compared to old school dictated notes. I can look up the meds on a patient quickly within the EMR, I don't need 3 pages of them listed in each provider's note.

It's hard to find the 4 lines necessary about interval history and assessment and plan (the new one, not the one copy and pasted from previous notes).

I wish there was a balance of copying forward an overall synopsis on the patient (adding to it as necessary), then having a separate section for what has happened since the last note, then whatever the NEW A/P (can include copied sections but shouldn't discuss stuff from 6 months ago if not relevant now).

This is based on the outpatient setting.
My outpatient notes are organized as follows:
CC:
Specialty Specific History (updated every time I see them or do something):
Interval History:
Impression:
Plan:
Everything else that I need to document to get paid but that nobody gives a s*** about:

Inpatient notes are similar:
24h Changes:
ROS:
Impression:
Plan/Recs:
All the other crap:
 
My outpatient notes are organized as follows:
CC:
Specialty Specific History (updated every time I see them or do something):
Interval History:
Impression:
Plan:
Everything else that I need to document to get paid but that nobody gives a s*** about:

Inpatient notes are similar:
24h Changes:
ROS:
Impression:
Plan/Recs:
All the other crap:

I put all the crap in between the interval history and the A/P, then just scroll past it when I look back at the notes. That way I know the history I give a crap about is at the top and the plan is at the bottom, rather than having to look in the middle.
 
Neurosurgery seems to have the shortest notes...

"Had BM yesterday. Wound looks good. Consult PMNR"

(Despite them working with us all the time, we figure they write PMNR instead of PM&R because of the split second longer it takes to reach for the "&". That or they just don't know/care there's an ampersand, which is probably more likely...)

I've seen some neurology and ID attendings write an entire page of assessment when they cosign a resident's note. Makes me wonder if they ever go home--the notes always seem to be cosigned in the late evening.

Some PCP notes get ridiculously long. I can't say how many I see where they copy and paste every specialty physician's assessment & plan, instead of just paraphrasing it. One person didn't change the font, so it took me forever to figure out what the PCP wrote and what the specialist wrote. Of all the notes I've read, PCP notes are the most over-bloated (to meet billing requirements, I assume).

I have yet to see an actual neurosurgery attendings note... I have seen a resident's note once or twice and that was the two liner you mentioned. At my institution, it's mostly their PA's.
 
The EMR generated notes are a lot more full of fluff and useless crap compared to old school dictated notes. I can look up the meds on a patient quickly within the EMR, I don't need 3 pages of them listed in each provider's note.

It's hard to find the 4 lines necessary about interval history and assessment and plan (the new one, not the one copy and pasted from previous notes).

I wish there was a balance of copying forward an overall synopsis on the patient (adding to it as necessary), then having a separate section for what has happened since the last note, then whatever the NEW A/P (can include copied sections but shouldn't discuss stuff from 6 months ago if not relevant now).

This is based on the outpatient setting.

I agree, I waste most of my time filtering through notes and then having to pretty much duplicate all the unnecessary garbage for billing.
 
Anesthesia is good if you don't like writing notes! They are very brief boilerplate for the most part. Focus is on heart, lungs, and airway. If you use an EMR it is mostly checkbox, with short blurbs for more complicated patients.
 
If you do nephrology, we have a template for progress notes in the outpatient dialysis units which is mostly just checking boxes. And its EMR as well. Other notes, such as non-dialysis outpatients and inpatient consults and/or follow-ups will be a little more lengthy.
 
Some PCP notes get ridiculously long. I can't say how many I see where they copy and paste every specialty physician's assessment & plan, instead of just paraphrasing it. One person didn't change the font, so it took me forever to figure out what the PCP wrote and what the specialist wrote. Of all the notes I've read, PCP notes are the most over-bloated (to meet billing requirements, I assume).

No, that's likely the result of some idiocy in residency --- at UTSW FM we had to include the kitchen sink in the notes -- they actually had PGY2s writing "supervisory" notes on every patient...every day...for every shift, on top of intern notes -- got to the point where specialty services started complaining about having to sort through the mounds of BS to get to the point....faculty tried to play it off as "demonstrating that we were caring for our patients and showing good continuity of care and supervision for the ACGME" -- really, it was just busy work because some bonehead on NF slept in, never rounded on patients and took a "page me if you need me" attitude with the nurses --- something happened which was a major whoopsie but I never heard what it was....after that, we got into this writing a novel method of note writing.

Best discharge summary I ever saw was from an old line community FM doc -- kind of guy that wore suits on rounds in the hospital, polite, asked intelligent questions but never made you feel like an idiot if you didn't know the answer -- I was taking care of his patient and had been communicating over the phone on a daily basis with him. He came in, rounded on the patient with me, told me he'd do the discharge and thanked me. Later on I saw the summary -- about 1 handwritten paragraph -- here's what he came in for, here's what we found, here's what we did, here's the f/u plan in simple, declarative English sentences. period. signature.

Loved that guy.

I hate this BS EMR documentation for legal/billing purposes -- gets in the way of good medicine.
 
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