Is residency a scam?

[Amphetamine Salts]

serious question. i've seen the residents work. they do over 40+ hours a week. driven into the ground like dogs with work. constantly stressed and overworked, hoping they don't miss an assignment or that their 2 hour long presentation goes perfectly. all this stress, all this work. and then i ask myself, for what? really, what is the point. there is no guaranteed job at the end of it all. after the residency, then what? it's back to the same situation of finding someone to hire you. perhaps you may get more opportunities compared to a new grad because you have a residency experience. but perhaps you may get nothing at all. so it doesn't seem to me that people are doing residencies to get a better job, because the outcome of one is not guaranteed. so i assume the point of the residency is to expand your knowledge of pharmacy? if that were true, i think that there should be FAAAR less people pursuing residencies. most residents are not pursuing it because of their love for pharmacy, why? because quite simply, most people do not have an innate love for pharmacy. i feel that the desire for residency is partly due to influence from others and the environment. for example, preceptors and people saying that in order to get any job you need to do a residency now. there are also some people that have a desire to increase their credentials with several board certifications. i guess i'll just never understand that.

anyway, is residency a scam? you work very long hours and get paid 1/3rd of what a pharmacist does. that statement alone should really be ringing some bells for a lot of people

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[PolarPop]

Yea it's partly a scam, it seems like residents are doing more and more work every year. But at the end of the day you won't have to work in retail and you might find some kind of work that actually interests you if you can put up with the BS for 1-2 years. You don't have to do a residency to find non-retail work or even hospital work. There are other ways as you can see by searching the forum. It is a path that's laid out and the rules of the game are pretty simple. If you don't like them then don't do it - nothing is guaranteed.

 

[Amphetamine Salts]

Yea it's partly a scam, it seems like residents are doing more and more work every year. But at the end of the day you won't have to work in retail and you might find some kind of work that actually interests you if you can put up with the BS for 1-2 years. You don't have to do a residency to find non-retail work or even hospital work. There are other ways as you can see by searching the forum. It is a path that's laid out and the rules of the game are pretty simple. If you don't like them then don't do it - nothing is guaranteed.

i see. i use to dread the idea of working retail after graduation. but honestly at this point, now that i'm nearly graduated, i wouldn't mind going into retail. it's not even that bad. just get me a job that pays $100k+ and i'll ride it out, not really a big deal. the extreme aversion to retail is interesting. is it worth the pain and suffering of 1-2 years of residency for the HOPE that you will find a better non-retail job? in my opinion it's very much not worth it

 

[BidingMyTime]

But at the end of the day you won't have to work in retail.

There are PLENTY of pharmacists who've completed a residency who are working in retail because they couldn't get a hospital job (usually because they won't move out of a saturated area.)

OP, there are many difference points to consider, when considering if you should do a residency or not. First, you need to have an idea of what your career goals are (working environment, location you want to live in, long-term career goals.) After that, you can look at paths to reach those goals, and if a residency will be the easier path to take to reach those goals.

 

[Abby Atwood]

On this side of the match after I wound up without a residency, I don’t know that residency is as critical as I made it out to be. As a student, I though of the actual learning opportunities that residency offers as being essential to practice pharmacy to the best of your ability. I would have wanted to attend a residency program even if I was ultimately going to practice in a retail pharmacy.

There are more job opportunities with residency; however, after talking to people from my school that did match, I think I would have been disappointed with residency training. For many people, the difference between APPEs and residency appears to be more of a mental shift vs a measurable change in responsibility. 5 months into my current job (which is somewhat specialized), I am confident that I am more capable in my role then the average new PGY1 grad would be. Residency training is helpful, but it isn’t essential. Increasing job opportunities may be a more realistic goal for residency training vs actually increasing competency.

 

[lionheart555]

It's not a scam

But it's not a guaranteed job either.

The problem is you have too many people graduating pharmacy school. Retail markets are saturated in the places people want to work (urban centers). People are forced into residencies just to be competitive for any other job now. And for those that don't get a residency you better hope you are super lucky or have a really great connection. If not, you are probably going to float. That's not to say it happens to everyone. I know a lot of people that got amazing jobs right out of school (some that even failed to get a residency). But you can't look at those people and say yeah that's going to happen to me. They were in the right place at the right time.

That said, I understand. As a current resident, it sucks when you hear that some people struck gold and are making 140-150K+ right out of school in a cushy managerial role. And here I am living with 2 others and trying to make ends meet.

Complaints aside though, residency is STILL the best opportunity for a pharmacist to have value and be able to negotiate for better positions and better salary.

 

[Amphetamine Salts]

On this side of the match after I wound up without a residency, I don’t know that residency is as critical as I made it out to be. As a student, I though of the actual learning opportunities that residency offers as being essential to practice pharmacy to the best of your ability. I would have wanted to attend a residency program even if I was ultimately going to practice in a retail pharmacy.

There are more job opportunities with residency; however, after talking to people from my school that did match, I think I would have been disappointed with residency training. For many people, the difference between APPEs and residency appears to be more of a mental shift vs a measurable change in responsibility. 5 months into my current job (which is somewhat specialized), I am confident that I am more capable in my role then the average new PGY1 grad would be. Residency training is helpful, but it isn’t essential. Increasing job opportunities may be a more realistic goal for residency training vs actually increasing competency.

i think that after pharmacy school you can advance your abilities as a pharmacist on your own and by simply working the job. i'm not really an advocate of attending programs/training courses by organizations to gain more experience. if you want the experience you will go and get it on your own terms. there are better ways to go about learning more in regards to pharmacy and performing better at your job

It's not a scam

But it's not a guaranteed job either.

The problem is you have too many people graduating pharmacy school. Retail markets are saturated in the places people want to work (urban centers). People are forced into residencies just to be competitive for any other job now. And for those that don't get a residency you better hope you are super lucky or have a really great connection. If not, you are probably going to float. That's not to say it happens to everyone. I know a lot of people that got amazing jobs right out of school (some that even failed to get a residency). But you can't look at those people and say yeah that's going to happen to me. They were in the right place at the right time.

That said, I understand. As a current resident, it sucks when you hear that some people struck gold and are making 140-150K+ right out of school in a cushy managerial role. And here I am living with 2 others and trying to make ends meet.

Complaints aside though, residency is STILL the best opportunity for a pharmacist to have value and be able to negotiate for better positions and better salary.

how can one negotiate for better positions when there is a severe lack of positions to begin with? if someone completes 2 residencies and specializes in critical care but at the end of it all they still cannot find a job because there are simply no openings, what are they to do? what are the chances of going through 2 residencies and not securing a job? i'm willing to say that no one really knows. that's kind of the issue with the residency to be honest. it's not a GUARANTEE. it's a hope that after the training, more doors will open up. instead of going with the hope, what are the alternatives? that would be to find a job right now. apply everywhere, reach out to employers, network. this has to be done anyway. whether it be done after the residency or before, you still need to apply to employers. see what's available right NOW and determine how much money you can make NOW. loans don't pay themselves, they start to rack up with time. if residencies were to guarantee each resident that completes the program a clinical position in their area of interest i would say holy smokes residency is 100% worth it. i probably still wouldn't do it, but for all the clinical nerds/geeks that want to advance their learning they get to do that AND get a guaranteed job at the end of it all to put advanced experience to the work. now that is a worth it residency. with no guarantee of a job though? doesn't seem as enticing

 

[Modest_anteater]

i think that after pharmacy school you can advance your abilities as a pharmacist on your own and by simply working the job. i'm not really an advocate of attending programs/training courses by organizations to gain more experience. if you want the experience you will go and get it on your own terms. there are better ways to go about learning more in regards to pharmacy and performing better at your job


how can one negotiate for better positions when there is a severe lack of positions to begin with? if someone completes 2 residencies and specializes in critical care but at the end of it all they still cannot find a job because there are simply no openings, what are they to do? what are the chances of going through 2 residencies and not securing a job? i'm willing to say that no one really knows. that's kind of the issue with the residency to be honest. it's not a GUARANTEE. it's a hope that after the training, more doors will open up. instead of going with the hope, what are the alternatives? that would be to find a job right now. apply everywhere, reach out to employers, network. this has to be done anyway. whether it be done after the residency or before, you still need to apply to employers. see what's available right NOW and determine how much money you can make NOW. loans don't pay themselves, they start to rack up with time. if residencies were to guarantee each resident that completes the program a clinical position in their area of interest i would say holy smokes residency is 100% worth it. i probably still wouldn't do it, but for all the clinical nerds/geeks that want to advance their learning they get to do that AND get a guaranteed job at the end of it all to put advanced experience to the work. now that is a worth it residency. with no guarantee of a job though? doesn't seem as enticing

I have to agree with this. Although I wouldn't use the word "scam" because no one is having money stolen from them (unless you count productivity cost of possible earned income). It seems like many of the jobs that you can get with a PGY1 or PGY2 can be gotten without a residency. I talked to a nuclear pharmacist who got there by starting as a staff pharmacist and working his way up.

<sensitivity warning: Do not read if you are easily offended (highlight to read spoiler text) >

1. PGY1 and PGY2 are for individuals that regretted not going to medical school and are now trying to contort the professional of pharmacy into something more intellectual to make up for their feeling of inferiority. Pharmacy is taking pills out of a big container and putting them into a smaller container. We get paid a lot the same reason a bank manager gets paid a lot. To prevent theft. Trying to super impose some exaggerated intellectualism onto the pharmacy occupation to inflate ones ego is ridiculously neurotic. Using the most recent guileless to adjust Vanko or HIV drug dosing can be done by anyone capable of understanding FDA/drug manufaturer/lexicomp websites.

2. Residency is also for betas and those that have extreme anxiety when it comes to aggressively finding a job. By entering residency you are avoiding the stressful job search (and reality that there may not be a job for you in the market) for at least an additional year.

</sensitivity warning>

 

[Amphetamine Salts]

I have to agree with this. Although I wouldn't use the word "scam" because no one is having money stolen from them (unless you count productivity cost of possible earned income). It seems like many of the jobs that you can get with a PGY1 or PGY2 can be gotten without a residency. I talked to a nuclear pharmacist who got there by starting as a staff pharmacist and working his way up.

<sensitivity warning: Do not read if you are easily offended (highlight to read spoiler text) >

1. PGY1 and PGY2 are for individuals that regretted not going to medical school and are now trying to contort the professional of pharmacy into something more intellectual to make up for their feeling of inferiority. Pharmacy is taking pills out of a big container and putting them into a smaller container. We get paid a lot the same reason a bank manager gets paid a lot. To prevent theft. Trying to super impose some exaggerated intellectualism onto the pharmacy occupation to inflate ones ego is ridiculously neurotic. Using the most recent guileless to adjust Vanko or HIV drug dosing can be done by anyone capable of understanding FDA/drug manufaturer/lexicomp websites.

2. Residency is also for betas and those that have extreme anxiety when it comes to aggressively finding a job. By entering residency you are avoiding the stressful job search (and reality that there may not be a job for you in the market) for at least an additional year.

</sensitivity warning>

i actually never thought about point number 2, makes sense in a way. then again i'm one to cut the bs out of whatever i'm doing and get right to the endpoint. i feel that i agree with number 1. i have seen waaaay too many pharmacists that are very anal yet most of the doctors i've seen have been lax. they know stuff, they are knowledgeable. but they aren't as anal and neurotic as the pharmacists. maybe i haven't been exposed to many doctors? i've been on 5 APPE rotations so far and have seen a solid amount of doctors working in the hospital. not one comes to mind as a neurotic crazy person.

i do have to agree with the idea of some clinical pharmacists wanting to make up for their feeling of inferiority. it's hard to see that when you aren't aware but if someone were to tell you that you start to notice things. i think it also has to do with the pharmacist's role in the hospital as well. pharmacists may get brushed aside and joked on by the doctors so as a defense mechanism they feel the need to be super anal and compensating about everything in an attempt to "prove" their worth and necessity as apart of a clinical team. i'm not 100% sure that is going on but it does make logical sense

 

[lionheart555]

Residency is not a guarantee for a job. The idea is that you get value and multiple years of experience. I don't know the rates of employment after you get out (I do for my company). What I do know is that there is value in quality of life. There is also value in having a job that is interesting. Retail sucks the life and soul out of pharmacists (not ALL but I would say many). Right now in my residency, no weekends, no overtime, typically no stupid student work (unless we don't have a student to pawn it off to). I (typically) work 9-5 and have all holidays off. My company is very generous with allowing me my preferred PTO. Would I trade that to go back into retail? Into a hospital? Hell no. Would I trade for a full time position I hate? Still no. Can you get into the company without a residency? Sure, but my experience talking to those people is multiple years previously in retail or hospital. I don't want that either. Also, those pharmacists generally ended up in entry level, you get **** on all day type of positions.
- To the point that the preferred position may not be available, sure, it's a risk. But I'll take that risk over slaving behind corpo-name-your-chain pharmacy. And even if you DO end up entry level, I still bet having residency experience will give you a leg up over non residency applicants.
- Some people are really lucky. Or really hot. Or really good at what they do in a niche area. Right place right time. Mix or all of any of those. Got the perfect job right out of school. I would argue MORE are NOT getting their preferred jobs right out of school.
- Do all people feel the way I do about retail? No, but there are plenty that do. Same goes for my position. Same goes for clinical.

On another note, I don't really care how someone else views the profession of pharmacy. Pharmacy is moving and expanding all the time. If you can't even see the value of clinical knowledge in the retail setting beyond pill counting, I really wonder why you are a pharmacist at all.
- There are certainly pharmacists that feel the need to sit on their high horse. But there are plenty more that do not and are phenomenal people and professionals.
- And I wouldn't trust just anyone to manage my medications unconditionally. Doctors and nurses are generally not as knowledgeable about medications as pharmacists are. If they were, my job would be a lot less entertaining and a lot less busy.

 

[PolarPop]

There are PLENTY of pharmacists who've completed a residency who are working in retail because they couldn't get a hospital job (usually because they won't move out of a saturated area.)

They still have the option of a hospital job somewhere. Maybe there used to be plenty, but outside of picking up shifts at independents I have not heard of really anyone doing this in recent years and I live in a highly saturated major metro area. A PGY-1 residency is not exactly a marketable skill in the eyes of a major chain or independent.

 

[RHannosh]

It's not a scam

But it's not a guaranteed job either.

The problem is you have too many people graduating pharmacy school. Retail markets are saturated in the places people want to work (urban centers). People are forced into residencies just to be competitive for any other job now. And for those that don't get a residency you better hope you are super lucky or have a really great connection. If not, you are probably going to float. That's not to say it happens to everyone. I know a lot of people that got amazing jobs right out of school (some that even failed to get a residency). But you can't look at those people and say yeah that's going to happen to me. They were in the right place at the right time.

That said, I understand. As a current resident, it sucks when you hear that some people struck gold and are making 140-150K+ right out of school in a cushy managerial role. And here I am living with 2 others and trying to make ends meet.

Complaints aside though, residency is STILL the best opportunity for a pharmacist to have value and be able to negotiate for better positions and better salary.

I completely disagree. NOBODY is "forced" into residency. If anything, there are FAR more several jobs for retail pharmacists than there are hospital jobs. Absolutely nobody is forced into residency at all. I live in SoCal. There are SO MANY positions open at CVS it is not even funny. If you are good, there is no shortage. New grads are being promoted to PIC's (40 hours guaranteed) - so please - do not say people are forced into residency. Nobody is forced to make such a stupid decision.

EDIT: sorry, I didn't even read your whole post. Residency is "still" the best opportunity to negotiate for a better salary? Umm - what world are you living in? Retail is king - everybody, i mean everybody knows that hospital pharmacists get paid less than retail pharmacists.

 

[lionheart555]

I completely disagree. NOBODY is "forced" into residency. If anything, there are FAR more several jobs for retail pharmacists than there are hospital jobs. Absolutely nobody is forced into residency at all. I live in SoCal. There are SO MANY positions open at CVS it is not even funny. If you are good, there is no shortage. New grads are being promoted to PIC's (40 hours guaranteed) - so please - do not say people are forced into residency. Nobody is forced to make such a stupid decision.

EDIT: sorry, I didn't even read your whole post. Residency is "still" the best opportunity to negotiate for a better salary? Umm - what world are you living in? Retail is king - everybody, i mean everybody knows that hospital pharmacists get paid less than retail pharmacists.

How much negotiating can you do in retail?? You can get promoted to PIC and maybe DM then what? I never said other positions are paid more either although you'd be surprised how much an academic clinician that is tenured faculty can make.

Are your DMs and PICs getting 200K a year???
(Note: I am not saying you ONLY need residency to negotiate). Obviously there are people in big wig positions that didn't do ****. Can you honestly say in today's market people can make it there easily? Director, VP or CEO of a company? Hospital pharmacy director of executive officer? Health system executive officer?

Good luck finding a nice cushy job with bonuses without some kind of leg up, advantage, or way to demonstrate your value. AKA Residency, Fellowship, Years of Experience, or being lucky/all the other things I mentioned. But for a new grad that can't get years of experience, I still believe value is best demonstrated through residency and/or fellowship.

 

[Amphetamine Salts]

i would say that a residency is for anyone who absolutely loves pharmacy. the amount of work and effort that is involved in a residency program isn't worth it unless you love what you are doing. if you are a person such as myself whose priorities are living a low stress lifestyle and who has other endeavors/hobbies outside of pharmacy, then a residency wouldn't make sense. ideally, people like myself wouldn't be in pharmacy to begin with and instead would be pursuing careers that pay decently, with less schooling/debt, and better job outlook. we can't change the past though so the best choice would be finding work right out of school.

i do have to agree that retail is king when it comes to salary. retail always pays more starting out compared to hospital. you may not get as much vacation or paid time off but the pay and opportunity right out of school is an advantage. in terms of doing residency/fellowship to gain experience? personally i'm not an advocate of attending programs or training courses to gain more experience in anything. i firmly believe that necessary experience can be learned on the job. growth can be cultivated on the job and honed on the applicant's own time. it's all about RELEVANT experience, in my opinion. i have no interest in learning every facet of pharmacy. i just want to learn what's important to perform well at my job. i'm willing to bet that there is a good chunk of "experience" gained during residency/fellowship that ultimately just doesn't end up being used on the job. this is important because to me, time spent learning experience that isn't used on the job is wasted time.

 

[Seriously Serious]

I would like to add my 0.02

I personally think residency is a good choice depending on where you want to end up in the long-run. Simply labeling those who have the drive to pursue a residency as 'doctor wannabees' is a weak, baseless, argument. I'm not denying the inferiority complex that many students/residents feel when compared to MD's, but that applies for any mid-level position. Who wouldn't want to have all of the respect/power/wealth? That's just human nature; you are lying to yourself if you think otherwise. Getting back on point, I look around on job boards and see all of these positions REQUIRING PGY-X's. Sure you can probably land a non-retail job somewhere without that training on your CV. Can you guarantee that will be the case 5-10 years from now? You can't. I see residency as an investment in yourself. I personally enjoy being competitive - I like having some sort of project to work on. I can go from making -$33K/yr to $50K/yr out of school and give myself MORE options when I finish my training. Tell me how that is so horrible?

However, I refuse to be one those people who are so insecure, that they place an entire alphabet after their names in emails/linkedin... PharmD, if even that.

 

[Corytrade]

Bottom line, it's what you want in the end. Want to be an AmCare pharmacist, better have a residency. Want to be an oncology pharmacist, better have a residency. Don't want to work every other weekend, better have a residency.

YMMV.

 

[PumpkinSmasher]

Bottom line, it's what you want in the end. Want to be an AmCare pharmacist, better have a residency. Want to be an oncology pharmacist, better have a residency. Don't want to work every other weekend, better have a residency.

Majority of residency trained hospital pharmacists who I know all end up rotating weekends and holidays. With the exception of very specialized roles. Those of us in Amcare and managed care are some of the few who do not ever nights, weekends and holidays. A residency is necessary from now on for these roles in majority of cases especially if metro areas.



YMMV.

 

[pharmrx33]

i would say that a residency is for anyone who absolutely loves pharmacy. the amount of work and effort that is involved in a residency program isn't worth it unless you love what you are doing. if you are a person such as myself whose priorities are living a low stress lifestyle and who has other endeavors/hobbies outside of pharmacy, then a residency wouldn't make sense. ideally, people like myself wouldn't be in pharmacy to begin with and instead would be pursuing careers that pay decently, with less schooling/debt, and better job outlook. we can't change the past though so the best choice would be finding work right out of school.

i do have to agree that retail is king when it comes to salary. retail always pays more starting out compared to hospital. you may not get as much vacation or paid time off but the pay and opportunity right out of school is an advantage. in terms of doing residency/fellowship to gain experience? personally i'm not an advocate of attending programs or training courses to gain more experience in anything. i firmly believe that necessary experience can be learned on the job. growth can be cultivated on the job and honed on the applicant's own time. it's all about RELEVANT experience, in my opinion. i have no interest in learning every facet of pharmacy. i just want to learn what's important to perform well at my job. i'm willing to bet that there is a good chunk of "experience" gained during residency/fellowship that ultimately just doesn't end up being used on the job. this is important because to me, time spent learning experience that isn't used on the job is wasted time.

Honestly, it comes down to what you want your career to look like. Although, yes, you can attain some total clinical jobs without residency, it is becoming extremely more and more difficult. I'm a current resident at an institution with 2,000 patient beds, and do not feel burnt out at all... nor am I a beta like the one person suggested haha.

 

[Fluffhead.D]

Honestly, it comes down to what you want your career to look like. Although, yes, you can attain some total clinical jobs without residency, it is becoming extremely more and more difficult. I'm a current resident at an institution with 2,000 patient beds, and do not feel burnt out at all... nor am I a beta like the one person suggested haha.

I’ve been in practice over 10 years and trying to move from outpatient (chain and Indy) to a FT clinical position. After applying and getting little action for 9 months, i’m Beginning to think only PGY1 and recent experience inpatient is what is being considered. This is coming from several recruiters and people I know in the various institutions. In this current saturated environment, especially urban areas, I think it’s a valuable assest

 

[Saiyo]

I’ve been in practice over 10 years and trying to move from outpatient (chain and Indy) to a FT clinical position. After applying and getting little action for 9 months, i’m Beginning to think only PGY1 and recent experience inpatient is what is being considered. This is coming from several recruiters and people I know in the various institutions. In this current saturated environment, especially urban areas, I think it’s a valuable assest

10 years of retail? sounds like it would indeed be tough to get into a hospital...

 

[Fluffhead.D]

10 years of retail? sounds like it would indeed be tough to get into a hospital...

Having a BCPS with my outpatient experience was fine 5 years ago, the over supply of pharmacists is pushing the bar very, very high.

10 years of retail? sounds like it would indeed be tough to get into a hospital...

 

[Dred Pirate]

serious question. i've seen the residents work. they do over 40+ hours a week. driven into the ground like dogs with work. constantly stressed and overworked,

40+ is not "working like a dog" - 60+ might be 80+ definitely is

just to clarify

 

[spacecowgirl]

40+ is not "working like a dog" - 60+ might be 80+ definitely is

just to clarify

in a coal mine.
or 2 minimum wage jobs
or processing chickens.

That is working like a dog.

 

[Dred Pirate]

in a coal mine.
or 2 minimum wage jobs
or processing chickens.

That is working like a dog.

yes -those would fall under that category - and I think we both agree- a pharmacy residency doesn't compare to that in regards to working as a dog (putting on my old man hat) - today's generation thinks anytime you have to work your butt off - someone is being unfair to them - (removing old man hat)

 

[headortail]

"if you are a person such as myself whose priorities are living a low stress lifestyle and who has other endeavors/hobbies outside of pharmacy, then a residency wouldn't make sense."

Funny, this is how I feel about retail. Before graduating pharmacy school and starting residency, I didn't mind retail. Now I wouldn't be able to go back.

I'm not going to talk about what I do at the hospital. I love what I do; I would never work elsewhere. The clinics are not for me - too slow. But that's besides the point. Let's assume that at the end of the day, all pharmacists do is put pills in a bottle (because some here seem to suggest that; I think it's ridiculous but I'm not here to argue against that point). Let's talk about that quality of life...

I accumulate 8 hrs of PTO per pay period. I travel for 2 weeks out of the country every year and still have 6 weeks of PTO left in my bank. On the other hand, my friend at CVS get an 80-hr PTO every year; another friend had to take unpaid leave to travel abroad x 2 weeks. I staff every other weekend at my hospital. Oh wait, are you telling me that retail jobs are M-F no weekends or holidays? If so, I'd love to know where you work because my friend works her holidays share + staff every other weekend.

Oh and did I mention, I don't have to drive to 3 other hospitals in a week?

There's your QOL right there. Like you, I care much more about life outside of pharmacy; yet I did a residency and in all honesty, it's all bout the particular program you rank. Plus, you can do ANYTHING for 1 year. If you want anything but retail right now, you pretty much have to do a residency. Do I think I learned more during residency than on the job training? Absolutely not. Some of our most excellent pharmacists didn't do a residency; but they also graduated 7 years before me. For me, real working experience at a hospital >1 year weighs as much, if not more than a residency. But the question is, how can you get that job in the first place? The only route is to go rural, and that's not for everyone. Working at a rural hospital right of school is probably the best way to learn while still getting paid a pharmacist salary.

So do I think residency is a scam? No, it gets you where you want to be, more often that not. Do I think we need it? No. By no mean does it guarantee a "good" pharmacist, especially when many who are doing residencies are not interested in learning at all, but rather purely to "get out" of retail. Unfortunately all the new schools opening up think there's a need to add to all this saturation madness.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Not a scam but its very tough to get residency

I wouldn't say "very tough" - I think about 2/3 of people that apply match-

 

[Buffalo_CC_Pharmacist]

I would have to disagree...

I did 2 years of residency so that I would enjoy what I do + have a much better work-life-balance. I enjoy going to work each day where I work with critically ill patients on different mechanical circulatory devices. Each day is different than the one before it. I see interesting patient cases and the doctors constantly tell me how much they appreciate my input. I work Monday through Friday with no weekends. Like others have said, I accrue more PTO than I know what to do with. I get to teach students and residents and give lectures at my University Hospitals's college of pharmacy. I only verify orders during rounds and then have the rest of the day to teach, work on research projects, or be involved with committees. I'm then able to travel the country/world to present my research and learn new things at conferences (paid by my hospital).

You can do anything for 2 years. So many of my friends from college are already burnt out from retail (I graduated 3 years ago). I would do residency over again every time! Residency was hard work, but I got to see so many cool things, meet so many amazing clinicians, and learn so much about medicine that doesn't even scratch the surface of what is taught in pharmacy school.

Residency isn't for everyone, but if you actually do enjoy a particular specialty and are willing to put in the work, the reward can be pretty amazing!

 

[Thoughtfulsinner]

If you want to do a residency go to medical school.

It's pharmacy people you aren't diagnosing and prescribing the medications. A PA/NP who can do all of that and more, at relatively the same cost, is more valuable than a clinical pharmacist.

 

[Amphetamine Salts]

i think the pharmacists that go into hospital and try to be apart of a clinical team are doing so because they don't want to "settle" for retail. i'm not sure why they didn't just become doctors. doctors get educated on meds too anyway

 

[Amphetamine Salts]

I would have to disagree...

I did 2 years of residency so that I would enjoy what I do + have a much better work-life-balance. I enjoy going to work each day where I work with critically ill patients on different mechanical circulatory devices. Each day is different than the one before it. I see interesting patient cases and the doctors constantly tell me how much they appreciate my input. I work Monday through Friday with no weekends. Like others have said, I accrue more PTO than I know what to do with. I get to teach students and residents and give lectures at my University Hospitals's college of pharmacy. I only verify orders during rounds and then have the rest of the day to teach, work on research projects, or be involved with committees. I'm then able to travel the country/world to present my research and learn new things at conferences (paid by my hospital).

You can do anything for 2 years. So many of my friends from college are already burnt out from retail (I graduated 3 years ago). I would do residency over again every time! Residency was hard work, but I got to see so many cool things, meet so many amazing clinicians, and learn so much about medicine that doesn't even scratch the surface of what is taught in pharmacy school.

Residency isn't for everyone, but if you actually do enjoy a particular specialty and are willing to put in the work, the reward can be pretty amazing!

if you want your entire life to revolve around pharmacy and doing work for a hospital then sure, this is a great path to take. however, i'm sure that most just want to go to work, do a good job, make money, leave, and enjoy their lives.

 

[AlwaysContrary]

If you want to do a residency go to medical school.

It's pharmacy people you aren't diagnosing and prescribing the medications. A PA/NP who can do all of that and more, at relatively the same cost, is more valuable than a clinical pharmacist.

why are you putting down people in the same profession as you? We are all on the same team.

 

[Amphetamine Salts]

it's actually a very legitimate concern to look at a pharmacist on a clinical team during rounds and wonder "what the hell position is this person fulfilling when the doctors just talk among themselves about the medications anyway" lol. at least the nurses and respiratory therapists do stuff the doctors don't do. such as being at the patients bedsides giving them med or operating the machines

 

[Thoughtfulsinner]

i think the pharmacists that go into hospital and try to be apart of a clinical team are doing so because they don't want to "settle" for retail. i'm not sure why they didn't just become doctors. doctors get educated on meds too anyway

I've done 3 years clinical, 2 years retail, and now I'm in med school. Let me tell you this, retail is a lot more difficult than clinical pharmacy.

 

[Amphetamine Salts]

I've done 3 years clinical, 2 years retail, and now I'm in med school. Let me tell you this, retail is a lot more difficult than clinical pharmacy.

i already work retail pharmacy, i'm a new grad. i actually like retail more. i get a good rush while i'm working and i feel very dominating and achieving while i'm banging out scripts, much better than boring clinical that makes me fall asleep

 

[AlwaysContrary]

i already work retail pharmacy, i'm a new grad. i actually like retail more. i get a good rush while i'm working and i feel very dominating and achieving while i'm banging out scripts, much better than boring clinical that makes me fall asleep

Why would you ever suggest someone that's in the same profession as you is useless?? Never once have I heard a clinical pharmacist bash staff or retail pharmacists. By God though, retail and staff pharmacist bash the hell out of clinical. I feel like it you guys that divide the profession, not residency trained pharmacists.

 

[Thoughtfulsinner]

Why would you ever suggest someone that's in the same profession as you is useless?? Never once have I heard a clinical pharmacist bash staff or retail pharmacists. By God though, retail and staff pharmacist bash the hell out of clinical. I feel like it you guys that divide the profession, not residency trained pharmacists.

Strange. When I was in clinical that's all I heard.

 

[AlPacino]

I used to think that way too. I tried using every excuse in the book to avoid residency. With 10+ years of retail experience and a guaranteed retail job after I finished, I thought it was a waste of time. My rotations changed my mind. After having the opportunity to perform more clinical interventions and be directly involved in patient care, my mind changed. I applied and matched to my #1 PGY1 program.

Yes the pay sucks, yes the hours suck, but you learn so much and retain the information you were taught in pharm school/rotations that you would lose in retail. Also any new grad knows that will 100K in loans you are going to be at this job for 20+ years. just had to be honest with myself and ask "do you seriously see yourself 20+ years working in retail hell?" Answer was no and my decision become easy. Residency year is bad but it opens a different career pathway and opportunities that you would not get without.

Also another big fear was that if after 8 years of retail I decide "Im done" and cant take it anymore then guess what? Your screwed. No inpatient setting will look at you after you've been out of school for so long and all you have is retail. To do anything outside of retail, employers want a residency and with increasing number of graduates, they are getting just that.

So while going to retail route still has its advantages, you damn well better be sure you are going to be at this job for 15-20+ years because if you dont do a residency, your going to have a hard time going into another sector of pharmacy.

 

[Amphetamine Salts]

So while going to retail route still has its advantages, you damn well better be sure you are going to be at this job for 15-20+ years because if you dont do a residency, your going to have a hard time going into another sector of pharmacy.

and this is the horse shet that they feed to pharmacy students to get them to do a residency. "if you don't do it then you will suffer, you will be stuck in retail forever". so far from the truth. unless you actually give a shet about pharmacy, you shouldn't do a residency. these programs are designed for the students that want this profession to be their only source of income for the rest of their life. for other students that are smart, have other aspirations, and simply want a job that makes good money, retail is the better decision. not everyone wants to be a clinical loser geek in a hospital carrying clipboards looking at lab values all day and speaking about clinical horse shet day in and day out. some people like that, most don't. most people want a job. most people want to work, make money, make a living, and enjoy their life in a way that they REALLY want to. retail offers you that because its quick and good money. to add on that. just because you don't do a residency doesn't mean your only option is retail. if you were smart, or had any other ambition and strive, you would use your pharmD to start your own business or do something entrepreneurial. listening to the horse shet that residencies shove down your throat during pharmacy school is a recipe for failure. it's like listening to society when they tell you to take out tons of loans to go to college. newsflash: when you have a group of people blindly shoving shet down people's throats there's probably something shetty about the deal that you are getting. you speak about residencies as if it's the only way to survive long term. it's not. well, if you are a close minded person with zero ambition then it might be

 

[Amphetamine Salts]

Why would you ever suggest someone that's in the same profession as you is useless?? Never once have I heard a clinical pharmacist bash staff or retail pharmacists. By God though, retail and staff pharmacist bash the hell out of clinical. I feel like it you guys that divide the profession, not residency trained pharmacists.

there's bashing both ways. on my hospital and critical care rotations i would hear the attendings and resident doctors crack jokes about the pharmacists on rounds. when someone asks what is the pharmacist's purpose on rounds an attending would reply "this is so that she doesn't have to count pills at CVS". it's ridiculous. the MDs talk among themselves about the drugs. i rarely see them turn to the clinical pharmacist on rounds asking a question, because they don't need to. the MDs already know about drugs, they go to school for that too.

i am not bashing these clinical pharmacists, i am telling you the truth. i will say that in patient pharmacists do have a purpose. inpatient pharmacy is essentially retail but for hospital patients. we need someone to verify the orders when they come through and inpatient pharmacy does just that which is great, i approve. however, the clinical pharmacists that do rounds? holy smokes. if that hospital needs to do a budget cut then these clinical pharmacists will be the first to go, guaranteed

 

[Corytrade]

Let it out man, I hope it makes you feel better.

 

[AlPacino]

and this is the horse shet that they feed to pharmacy students to get them to do a residency. "if you don't do it then you will suffer, you will be stuck in retail forever". so far from the truth. unless you actually give a shet about pharmacy, you shouldn't do a residency. these programs are designed for the students that want this profession to be their only source of income for the rest of their life. for other students that are smart, have other aspirations, and simply want a job that makes good money, retail is the better decision. not everyone wants to be a clinical loser geek in a hospital carrying clipboards looking at lab values all day and speaking about clinical horse shet day in and day out. some people like that, most don't. most people want a job. most people want to work, make money, make a living, and enjoy their life in a way that they REALLY want to. retail offers you that because its quick and good money. to add on that. just because you don't do a residency doesn't mean your only option is retail. if you were smart, or had any other ambition and strive, you would use your pharmD to start your own business or do something entrepreneurial. listening to the horse shet that residencies shove down your throat during pharmacy school is a recipe for failure. it's like listening to society when they tell you to take out tons of loans to go to college. newsflash: when you have a group of people blindly shoving shet down people's throats there's probably something shetty about the deal that you are getting. you speak about residencies as if it's the only way to survive long term. it's not. well, if you are a close minded person with zero ambition then it might be

Lol at Clinical Loser Geek. You lose all right to be taken seriously after that. You honestly sounds like an unhappy pissed off retail rph that is bitter and tired. Its not uncommon...I dont blame you. However however insulting others who want want to be ambitious post-pharmd and advance their clinical knowledge while you spend all day running GoodRxs just makes you sound ignorant.

Also you forgot to mention the biggest downside of retail. You are the most easily replaceable type of pharmacist on the market. Why pay a pharmacist with 10-15+ years of exp 140K salary when you can hire a new grad, pay him 30k less that can work longer hours and demand less. I would not feel safe if my only revenue stream was a retail job.

But hey you tell yourself whatever you want to help you sleep at night. CHeers

 

[Seriously Serious]

and this is the horse shet that they feed to pharmacy students to get them to do a residency. "if you don't do it then you will suffer, you will be stuck in retail forever". so far from the truth. unless you actually give a shet about pharmacy, you shouldn't do a residency. (1) these programs are designed for the students that want this profession to be their only source of income for the rest of their life. for (2) other students that are smart, have other aspirations, and simply want a job that makes good money, retail is the better decision. not everyone wants to be a (3) clinical loser geek in a hospital carrying clipboards looking at lab values all day and speaking about clinical horse shet day in and day out. some people like that, most don't. most people want a job. most people want to work, make money, make a living, and enjoy their life in a way that they REALLY want to. retail offers you that because its quick and good money. to add on that. (4) just because you don't do a residency doesn't mean your only option is retail. if you were smart, or had any other ambition and strive, you would use your pharmD to start your own business or do something entrepreneurial. (5) listening to the horse shet that residencies shove down your throat during pharmacy school is a recipe for failure. it's like listening to society when they tell you to take out tons of loans to go to college. newsflash: when you have a group of people blindly shoving shet down people's throats there's probably something shetty about the deal that you are getting. you speak about residencies as if it's the only way to survive long term. it's not. (6) well, if you are a close minded person with zero ambition then it might be

1) False
2) Sure, if you have other interests outside of pharmacy, retail makes sense. I don't know about you, but I went to pharmacy school because I wanted to be a pharmacist.
3) Lol, what are you, thirteen years old?
4) The only thing you've said on this thread that is logical.
5) Quite the opposite, but if that's what you need to tell yourself.
6) This sentence describes you perfectly based on all the garbage you just typed up.

Some of us want more than to work at Walmart. It has nothing to do with 'wanting to be like a doctor'. If I was a med school reject, it would make more sense to go into any kind of nursing program, because you work closely with patients and quite frankly, receive more recognition for it. Pharmacists have the privilege of being involved in patient care from a distance, and that is perfect for me. I think it's funny how binary your perception of pharmacy practice is.. for you it's either you're in retail with a successful side business or you're in clinical working ~just as a pharmacist~. Lol, what a joke.

 

[Amphetamine Salts]

i'm just tired of these people shoving residency as if it's the only option to be successful. this isn't a joke. i see plenty of students who get scammed and tricked into signing up for stupid programs where they get extremely over worked for no pay for a whole year just because they've been brainwashed by people around them that "residency is your only hope". it's ridiculous. these kids are getting suckered again. they've already been duped into taking 150k+ to go to pharmacy school, which i'm sure we can agree is a very dumb decision to make with such saturation going on. now they're being duped AGAIN, but this time it's to sacrifice 1-2 years time of earning and potential to be fed a bag of garbage by residency coordinators that want to fill up their programs. the more people that go to these stupid residencies the more the limits will be pushed such as tacking on PYG-3s and 4s before you land any job and people don't realize this. the people will gladly drink the kool aid and eat the garbage they are fed, they don't care. if someone tells them "hey buddy, just work like a maniac for 2 years at my hospital while i pay you dirt cheap and i promise ya a better future" lol! it's ridiculous!

 

[chemkid]

There are two sides of the coin here.

1) You do not need a residency to get a clinical position. With adequate experience, good networking, and ambition you can obtain a clinical position or an alternate career path other than retail. It depends on what you make of your non- residency experiences, what you choose to get involved in, and how you can speak to your skill-set.

2) Residency is not worthless. It's the fast-track path to that dream job clinical position that would otherwise take you a few years of experience to obtain. There are multiple experiences jam-packed into a year. However, if you go through residency year going through the motions or for ill- intentions, what you gain out of it is minimal. Residency is the straight shooter path to a clinical position, but it is not the only path.

The common element with both paths is that your success ultimately depends on you and what you choose to do with the opportunities and experiences you do have.

 

[AlwaysContrary]

there's bashing both ways. on my hospital and critical care rotations i would hear the attendings and resident doctors crack jokes about the pharmacists on rounds. when someone asks what is the pharmacist's purpose on rounds an attending would reply "this is so that she doesn't have to count pills at CVS". it's ridiculous. the MDs talk among themselves about the drugs. i rarely see them turn to the clinical pharmacist on rounds asking a question, because they don't need to. the MDs already know about drugs, they go to school for that too.

In my experience, this is the farthest from the truth. I have a feeling that the "MDs" you're talking about was probably you on rotation talking **** for no reason except to entertain your apparent fragile ego.

 

[Seriously Serious]

In my experience, this is the farthest from the truth. I have a feeling that the "MDs" you're talking about was probably you on rotation talking **** for no reason except to entertain your apparent fragile ego.

As I was reading this, a doc literally just strolled in and asked a question about a patient med regimen.

 

[DrXenha]

I loved residency so much I am doing another year...said no one ever. Residency is not fun, but it should be a requirement. I have learned and grown so much my first year. I am doing a PGY2 in critical care and I've already learned so much. You will NOT learn this in school. I have doctors from my PGY1 still texting me and asking questions. Whoever thinks it is a scam possibly did not learn much from their residencies or perhaps did not match. I would not want a recent graduate working as a clinical pharmacist in a hospital making medication plans. If you are smart and experienced, you will impact patient care positively. Pharmacists are in a unique position as they are the medication experts. Doctors get one semester of pharmacology, we get 3-4 years of it. To say pharmacists are not an asset would be a fallacy. Pharmacists are integral on teams, but not if they aren't trained properly, are unprofessional, or have nothing to contribute (which means they should not be in that field or are unprepared for rounds). I have no desire to go to medical school, touch patients, diagnose, or have those horrible hours. I wouldn't trade the training I've had for anything else.

 

[sde780]

Residency also expands on your ability to interact with others, your communication skills, time management skills, and how you approach problems. I grew so much more in residency than pharmacy school...it's usually pretty easy to differentiate residency trained pharmacists from those who are not. We recently temporarily pulled our rounding pharmacists on the hospitalist teams to staff in the satellite...the attendings all gathered together to write multiple emails pleading the administrative team to reinstate pharmacists back on their teams. It just goes to show the perceived value of a pharmacist from the physician side isn't a "clinical loser geek in a hospital carrying clipboards looking at lab values all day and speaking about clinical horse shet day in and day out"

 

[Thoughtfulsinner]

As I was reading this, a doc literally just strolled in and asked a question about a patient med regimen.

Well, if that makes you feel better so be it. The fact of the matter is that anyone can look up and find an answer to a medication question if they take the time to do so. Doctors just don't want to waste their time doing it. You are essentially a lackey that drops everything at the presence of a physician. Nothing you do cannot be replicated by a retail pharmD or by a robot in the near future.

 

[Seriously Serious]

Well, if that makes you feel better so be it. The fact of the matter is that anyone can look up and find an answer to a medication question if they take the time to do so. Doctors just don't want to waste their time doing it. You are essentially a lackey that drops everything at the presence of a physician. Nothing you do cannot be replicated by a retail pharmD or by a robot in the near future.

The same can be said about any profession. Welcome to the age of information.