Is shadowing absolutely necessary

[Jepstein30]

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Screw the application.. shadowing is absolutely necessary so you can know what the hell you're getting yourself into! You shouldn't really make a career choice without being armed with such info.

 

[LizzyM]

I am seeing my adcom members putting more stock in shadowing now than they did 10 years ago.

IMHO, not shared by all, shadowing should be for substantial amounts of time in a single day and span more than one day. The idea should be to see what patient-physician interactions look like when you are neutral third party (ie. when you are not the patient or a family member), and what proportion of time is spent obtaining information from patients and conducting physical examinations, the proportion of time spent doing procedures (things involving scalpels, 'scopes, etc), documentation and "paperwork", consultation with other professionals, teaching and mentoring residents and students, if that is part of that particular physician's role, administrative meetings, continuing education (such as weekly grand rounds), and the length of the work day. I don't see how you can get the most complete view in just an hour but I think that three or four 12- hours days may be sufficient.

I do think that M3 year is the time to explore different specialties, with some place for med school clubs that focus on different specialties, but knowing that there is variation within and between specialties regarding time spent talking with patients/families vs working with machines vs examining the evidence and making treatment decisions is important information in determining the career that is the best fit for you.

 

[SN12357]

I am seeing my adcom members putting more stock in shadowing now than they did 10 years ago.

IMHO, not shared by all, shadowing should be for substantial amounts of time in a single day and span more than one day. The idea should be to see what patient-physician interactions look like when you are neutral third party (ie. when you are not the patient or a family member), and what proportion of time is spent obtaining information from patients and conducting physical examinations, the proportion of time spent doing procedures (things involving scalpels, 'scopes, etc), documentation and "paperwork", consultation with other professionals, teaching and mentoring residents and students, if that is part of that particular physician's role, administrative meetings, continuing education (such as weekly grand rounds), and the length of the work day. I don't see how you can get the most complete view in just an hour but I think that three or four 12- hours days may be sufficient.

I do think that M3 year is the time to explore different specialties, with some place for med school clubs that focus on different specialties, but knowing that there is variation within and between specialties regarding time spent talking with patients/families vs working with machines vs examining the evidence and making treatment decisions is important information in determining the career that is the best fit for you.

I certainly understand the importance and virtue of shadowing, but don't you think this is a little bit of an unsustainable and unfair point of view? With the rise of HIPAA, fewer and fewer doctors are willing to have people shadow. No one wants the liability. I was unable to shadow docs I knew from work, and who knew me well and liked me, at a large teaching hospital because the administration had essentially forbidden it.

I was fortunate that I work in a health care facility and was able to shadow a doc there due to already being an employee. However, that was only in one specialty.

Quite frankly, I think it is a lot to ask a patient for a random undergrad to be allowed to observe their care. And the outright deception involved in much shadowing is not something I'm very comfortable with. To make it an absolute requirement is unfair to both patients and premeds. Volunteering is a lot fairer to everyone involved.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

My problem with shadowing is that very little of the information gleaned needs to be gleaned while following a guy around. Spend a few hours in the OR or with an FM doc and you see what clinical practice looks like. He can tell me about his admin requirements and lifestyle while sitting on a panel with docs from other specialties or in a podcast. Other premed can watch at the same time.

Shadowing is about choosing a profession, not learning medicine. Physicians are used to teaching medical students not teaching people about the career. So they spend a lot of time quizzing you about biology or teach you how to read an ECG. They should just hand you a detailed schedule of their day and send you on your way.

 

[gocanes1990]

I am seeing my adcom members putting more stock in shadowing now than they did 10 years ago.

IMHO, not shared by all, shadowing should be for substantial amounts of time in a single day and span more than one day. The idea should be to see what patient-physician interactions look like when you are neutral third party (ie. when you are not the patient or a family member), and what proportion of time is spent obtaining information from patients and conducting physical examinations, the proportion of time spent doing procedures (things involving scalpels, 'scopes, etc), documentation and "paperwork", consultation with other professionals, teaching and mentoring residents and students, if that is part of that particular physician's role, administrative meetings, continuing education (such as weekly grand rounds), and the length of the work day. I don't see how you can get the most complete view in just an hour but I think that three or four 12- hours days may be sufficient.

I do think that M3 year is the time to explore different specialties, with some place for med school clubs that focus on different specialties, but knowing that there is variation within and between specialties regarding time spent talking with patients/families vs working with machines vs examining the evidence and making treatment decisions is important information in determining the career that is the best fit for you.

Hey LizzyM, what LOR do you put the most stock/value in? Physician, prof, PI, job/boss?

thanks!

 

[LizzyM]

Hey LizzyM, what LOR do you put the most stock/value in? Physician, prof, PI, job/boss?

thanks!

My school is research heavy so we expect a PI letter if you spent >15 wks in a lab part-time (more than 1 semester) or if you were full time for a summer or more.

If you have been employed for >6 mos., a letter from a boss is typical but not essential. Many bosses don't have much to say that is useful from the point of view of an adcom but it can address your work ethic, initiative, etc. and sometimes explain why you are making a career change (if it is a career change and not just a gap year job).

Many (most?) schools expect multiple letters from undergrad faculty because they are best able to comment on your academic abilities which are important given that you are being admitted to a very demanding 2 year course of classroom/laboratory training followed by practical clinical training (some schools are changing this typical sequence but for the most part, medical school is still a significant amount of classroom education).

If your employer, PI, or professor is an MD, then great. Some schools (especially DO) want a letter from a physician. Mine does not. Frankly, most often they seem to be letters from family friends or neighbors (to close to you personally to be unbiased in their assessments) or are people who know you so superficially (a couple weeks with interaction of <24 contact hours) that they aren't able to comment beyond superficialities such as your neat appearance, prompt arrival and polite behavior toward staff and patients.

 

[PharmlyDoc]

I want to go to pharmacy school. but i shadowed an orthopedic hand surgeon 2 summers ago. I'd be with him 1 day a week all afternoon. (I don't see why everyone is having such a hard time finding a doctor to shadow. I just called up the place and asked if I could shadow one of their physicians, all I had to do was sign HIPPA forms) There were some patients that came in regularly every week, but every week it was something different, and I loved it.

 

[CoxMD]

I had zero hours of shadowing on my AMCAS and 20 hours that I mentioned during interviews. There are much more "involved" clinical experiences that are more important to do than shadowing.

Source: still got 6ii and 3 acceptances and no rejections last cycle

 

[LizzyM]

I had zero hours of shadowing on my AMCAS and 20 hours that I mentioned during interviews. There are much more "involved" clinical experiences that are more important to do than shadowing.

Source: still got 6ii and 3 acceptances and no rejections last cycle

As much as I hated "what to expect when you are expecting" (book for expectant mothers) when I was expecting, they did have a catch phrase that applies here, "Best Odds". Sure you might have a healthy baby even if you eat white bread and chocolate bars every day and sure you might get three admission offers without having any shadowing in writing on your application but your Best Odds should be what your are going for here.

 

[The Kraken]

I am seeing my adcom members putting more stock in shadowing now than they did 10 years ago.

IMHO, not shared by all, shadowing should be for substantial amounts of time in a single day and span more than one day. The idea should be to see what patient-physician interactions look like when you are neutral third party (ie. when you are not the patient or a family member), and what proportion of time is spent obtaining information from patients and conducting physical examinations, the proportion of time spent doing procedures (things involving scalpels, 'scopes, etc), documentation and "paperwork", consultation with other professionals, teaching and mentoring residents and students, if that is part of that particular physician's role, administrative meetings, continuing education (such as weekly grand rounds), and the length of the work day. I don't see how you can get the most complete view in just an hour but I think that three or four 12- hours days may be sufficient.

I that M3 year is the time to explore different specialties, with some place for med school clubs that focus on different specialties, but knowing that there is variation within and between specialties regarding time spent talking with patients/families vs working with machines vs examining the evidence and making treatment decisions is important information in determining the career that is the best fit for you.

I shadowed surgeons and surgery residents (and some m3's) for ~80 hours in 7 days, straight. I feel like it was the best thing for me when even after a long day starting at 6am rounds to the OR to clinical until 5-7pm, I still felt that medicine was for me. Its something more people should immerse themselves in. Swim or drown, you'll know what you feel about medicine afterwards.

 

[deleted307836]

I shadowed surgeons and surgery residents (and some m3's) for ~80 hours in 7 days, straight. I feel like it was the best thing for me when even after a long day starting at 6am rounds to the OR to clinical until 5-7pm, I still felt that medicine was for me. Its something more people should immerse themselves in. Swim or drown, you'll know what you feel about medicine afterwards.

That's great. How were you able to organize that?

As an aside... I feel like shadowing really benefits those that have family connections in the first place, which is likely to be applicants from professional-oriented families. It's something that I've been fortunate to have the opportunity to benefit from. That doesn't change my opinion that it's a little unfair, though, from a larger perspective. There are so many components of the process of preparing an application to med school that propagate social barriers - and I think this is definitely one of them. And especially as shadowing by cold calling becomes harder and harder to do for legal and organizational policy reasons.

 

[Radon XP]

That's great. How were you able to organize that?

As an aside... I feel like shadowing really benefits those that have family connections in the first place, which is likely to be applicants from professional-oriented families. It's something that I've been fortunate to have the opportunity to benefit from. That doesn't change my opinion that it's a little unfair, though, from a larger perspective. There are so many components of the process of preparing an application to med school that propagate social barriers - and I think this is definitely one of them. And especially as shadowing by cold calling becomes harder and harder to do for legal and organizational policy reasons.

👍

 

[Arbor Vitae]

As much as I hated "what to expect when you are expecting" (book for expectant mothers) when I was expecting, they did have a catch phrase that applies here, "Best Odds". Sure you might have a healthy baby even if you eat white bread and chocolate bars every day and sure you might get three admission offers without having any shadowing in writing on your application but your Best Odds should be what your are going for here.

Didn't know you were a mom too. 👍

 

[htdt]

Thank you everyone for your replies. So I can see that the short answer is: "Shadowing is necessary and volunteering or other clinical experience can't replace it."

The big question now is: How can I find shadowing opportunities? I have classmates who are pre-dental and they have been able to find shadowing opportunities during their freshman year by just calling dentists. Is that the same for physicians? However, I think there is a big difference here because most dentists have their own practice so they have a lot of freedom on deciding whether undergrads can shadow them or not, while most physicians work in a hospital setting with not much of freedom and strict restrictions. Who should I contact for shadowing? The physicians themselves or the hospital?

 

[SN12357]

That's great. How were you able to organize that?

As an aside... I feel like shadowing really benefits those that have family connections in the first place, which is likely to be applicants from professional-oriented families. It's something that I've been fortunate to have the opportunity to benefit from. That doesn't change my opinion that it's a little unfair, though, from a larger perspective. There are so many components of the process of preparing an application to med school that propagate social barriers - and I think this is definitely one of them. And especially as shadowing by cold calling becomes harder and harder to do for legal and organizational policy reasons.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[The Kraken]

That's great. How were you able to organize that?

As an aside... I feel like shadowing really benefits those that have family connections in the first place, which is likely to be applicants from professional-oriented families. It's something that I've been fortunate to have the opportunity to benefit from. That doesn't change my opinion that it's a little unfair, though, from a larger perspective. There are so many components of the process of preparing an application to med school that propagate social barriers - and I think this is definitely one of them. And especially as shadowing by cold calling becomes harder and harder to do for legal and organizational policy reasons.

I cold called every hospital in the area and asked the receptionist who I would talk to about shadowing physicians. I didn't know we had a hospital where many medical students did surgical rotations at, and I set up a time to meet the chief of surgery through the HR lady. Spent an afternoon under the attending's wing and he basically pushed on the residents at the end of the day and they told me be here before 6am tomorrow morning. Showed up and I immersed myself for a week until I got the time I wanted.

 

[talinnlove]

Thank you everyone for your replies. So I can see that the short answer is: "Shadowing is necessary and volunteering or other clinical experience can't replace it."

The big question now is: How can I find shadowing opportunities? I have classmates who are pre-dental and they have been able to find shadowing opportunities during their freshman year by just calling dentists. Is that the same for physicians? However, I think there is a big difference here because most dentists have their own practice so they have a lot of freedom on deciding whether undergrads can shadow them or not, while most physicians work in a hospital setting with not much of freedom and strict restrictions. Who should I contact for shadowing? The physicians themselves or the hospital?

Contact:
1) individual physicians, aka "cold calling." I have never done this, so I have no idea about its efficacy. I don't think you'll end up needing to do this, though.

2) a medical school in your area, if you have one, which may help arrange shadowing for pre-med students, or have resources for you to utilize [my state school is UW, and they have a good list of resources here: http://www.uwmedicine.org/education/md-program/admissions/applicants/pages/shadow.aspx#premed]

3) your state's Area Health Education Center, which will have resources to connect students from/interested in rural areas with physician mentors; Montana and Washington have specific contact people who help you arrange shadowing with rural doctors. Other states likely have good resources for this as well.

4) UW has an Alternative Spring Break program that arranges shadowing and week-long homestays with doctors. Plumb the depths of your school's pre-health advising center to find opportunities that you might not be aware of.

5) the Washington Academy of Family Physicians arranges mentoring for pre-meds, which can sometimes include shadowing your mentor at their practice. Dunno if other states have this, but it's worth looking in to, or getting in touch with your state's Academy of Family Physicians to see if they know about arranging opportunities.

That said, your best chance is to use your network. The vast majority of my shadowing was arranged with the help of the physician who supervised my undergraduate research, who knew colleagues and former classmates in the area. I have shadowed at six major hospitals and several rural clinics, and none of them vetoed my participation. They were all quite helpful.

I also met a few doctors while I was in the process of shadowing their colleagues. Just be outgoing and show sincere interest in learning from your mentors. Ask your current preceptor if they know of any colleagues who might be willing to host a student.

None of this was nepotism. None of my connections were made from mommy and daddy calling their doctor friends. It's not impossible, so don't be discouraged. You just have to step outside your comfort zone and ask for help; be humble, outgoing, and show excitement.

 

[Blaughable]

Yep. Like mentioned above, use your network. I had no physicians in the family or even extended family. However my friend's mom was in hospital administration, and she was able to hook me up with a great shadowing opportunity that turned into me being able to shadow all over the hospital. Good luck, make the most of it, learn and have fun.