Is the combo of Ketamine and Dexmedetomidine Hazardous?

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BLADEMDA

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My response is a definitive NO. These drugs are a great combo and act in a synergistic manner. I like the Combo a great deal as do many others.


But, a recent article is now claiming the combination of those 2 drugs requires additional monitoring prior to discharge. My anecdotal use shows nothing of the sort if the drugs are given appropriately for MAC cases (low dose ketamine single bolus 0.3 mg/kg combined with Precedex 0.5-1 ug/kg).

Yet, there is a recent article now questioning the use of this combination. Once the article appears online I'll post it or another member can do so. The article is on the front page of Anesthesiology News.
 
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Dr. Schwenk agreed: "These results may lead some intensivists to think twice before ordering these drugs drugs in patients with preexisting cognitive dysfunction, especially the elderly."

So, based on this article I will now need to discontinue using either the Ketamine or Precedex in "elderly" patients having outpatient surgery. I honestly think that many members of our profession are clueless when it comes to the legal implications of putting this type of trash in any publication. The peer reviewed evidence to date shows the combination of low dose ketamine and precedex to be an excellent choice especially for the elderly.
 


I'll likely be dropping the Ketamine and sticking with the combo of Precedex and Propofol until the data becomes clearer.
 
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Our anecdotal experience and previous reports from the literature suggest that a combination of dexmedetomidine and ketamine provides an effective combination for procedural sedation, particularly in select populations who are at a greater risk of perioperative complications due to underlying co-morbid conditions.

Jarrett Heard, MD*, David Martin, MD**, Joseph D. Tobias, MD**, Brian Schloss, MD**

*Department of Anesthesiology, The Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio (USA)

**Department of Anesthesiology & Pain Medicine, Nationwide Children’s Hospital, Columbus, Ohio (USA)

Correspondence: Brian Schloss, MD, Department of Anesthesiology & Pain Medicine, Nationwide Children’s Hospital, 700 Children’s Drive, Columbus, Ohio43205 (USA); Phone: (614) 722-4200; Fax: (614) 722-4203; E-mail: [email protected]
 
"Our meta-analysis suggested that dexmedetomidine can significantly reduce the incidence of early POCD in elderly patients and improve postoperative MMSE score. It acts at the locus coeruleus in the brain stem, which contains the highest concentration of α2 adrenoceptors. By regulating neurotransmitter release, the locus coeruleus is critical for coordination of waking and sleeping, and is the source of noradrenergic pathways from the medulla oblongata to the spinal cord. By acting on α2 adrenoceptors in the brain and spinal cord, dexmedetomidine inhibits neuronal discharge, thus inhibiting the effects of sympathetic nervous system activity. An association between POCD and the inflammatory response has also been reported. Cibelli and colleagues examined whether systemic inflammation in response to surgical trauma gives rise to subsequent memory impairment and hippocampal inflammation in a mouse model of orthopaedic surgery, and found that inflammation played a critical role in the pathogenesis of POCD and could be reversed by minocycline, a nonspecific inhibitor of inflammation.16 The trauma of surgery stimulates the immune cascade and the release of inflammatory mediators, which may then provoke POCD. A number of animal experiments have shown that dexmedetomidine can reduce inflammation,17,18 which may also explain how it reduces the incidence of POCD."

 
I have no clue why any of us would use ketamine for an anesthetic. Don't see any reason why a trained anesthesiologist would want to garble people's mind. Leave that to Peds/IM/ER residents.
 
I have no clue why any of us would use ketamine for an anesthetic. Don't see any reason why a trained anesthesiologist would want to garble people's mind. Leave that to Peds/IM/ER residents.
Given in appropriate doses, it provides significant analgesia without “garbling people’s minds.” In fact it can provide a rather smooth emergence in otherwise difficult patients.
 
Given in appropriate doses, it provides significant analgesia without “garbling people’s minds.” In fact it can provide a rather smooth emergence in otherwise difficult patients.
I'm not sure what the significant analgesia that ketamine provides is. For a MAC procedure maybe. Otherwise, its opioid sparing component is equivalent to 8mg of morphine (Ketamine venous injection for acute pain after operation in adults). Given the associated side effects, particularly in the elderly, and the labor associated with infusions in most hospitals I've seen, the juice doesn't seem worth the squeeze IMO.

If you're in a third world country, in an ED, doing some sort of short MAC procedure, then I think ketamine is lovely. The ubiquitous use it seems to have nowadays or the idea that it's some panacea analgesic is frustrating.
 
For painful procedures (large spine cases, median sternotomy, thoracotomy), judicious use of ketamine (0.5-1mg/kg at induction) decreases opiates intraop, without impairing emergence. I use it with regularity in my hearts, lung cases, and spines, and note a significant decrease in opiates compared to my peers both intraop and in PACU. The hearts are getting extubated soon after arrival to the unit, and POD0-1 morphine or hydrocodone use is less than most of my colleagues'. Delirium does not appear to be higher in my patients compared to my colleagues, either (although, I also tend to give much less versed than many of them). For sedation cases (or TKR with spinal), a little allows a good decrease in the rate of the propofol infusion, so there's less snoring/obstruction, but still a crisp wakeup. It's not a great solo anesthetic or analgesic, but it is a great adjunct. I really don't get how much hate it always gets on this forum from people who think it just overly sedates and scrambles patients brains without providing actual analgesia.
 
I have used ketamine up to 0.5mg/kg as pain adjunct on 100+ cases without issue, majority outpatient. Where I trained we used 0.5-1mg/kg of ketamine over 1 hour in the pain clinic. Never saw issues at 0.5mg/kg but occasionally some hypertension at the higher end that subsided quickly.

I also like the ketamine+precedex combo occasionally when propofol infusion won't do.

I think ketamine is an excellent drug if used appropriately.
 
I have no clue why any of us would use ketamine for an anesthetic. Don't see any reason why a trained anesthesiologist would want to garble people's mind. Leave that to Peds/IM/ER residents.


Ketamine is an excellent, and underutilized, drug. It’s truly the only real opiate-sparing drug we have (maybe also Gabapentin). Ketamine has also been shown to decrease and perhaps reverse opioid-induced hyperalgesia. Anyone who doesn’t use it is doing their patients a disservice.
 
For any long potentially painful case such as thoracic or general surgery abdominal procedure, I almost always run a ketamine infusion unless there was a strong reason not to (pretty much none). I have never had PACU nurses or surgeons tell me their patient's minds were "garbled" either. At 0.1-0.2 mg/kg/hour preceded by a 0.25 - 0.5 mg bolus on induction, this low does has not been associated with any significant delirium and may decrease opioid requirements.
 
I also use ketamine for the majority of cases, whether low doses to reduce overall hyponotics (Propofol etc. for MAC), or for larger painful cases as an analgesic adjuvant. I also have not noticed any untoward effects and have been able to significantly reduce my opiate levels.

Regarding Ketadex, I have used this for MAC cases, very rarely, but without issues. I have also used Ketamine and Precedex as analgesic adjuvant for longer cases with high possibility of pain (Open AAA with contraindication to epidural, Unexpected thoracotomy conversions, scoliosis repairs, etc.). The only downside I have found to the combination of Ketamine and Precedex for longer general cases is that the Precedex component can significantly potentiate whatever hypnotic is being used so there needs to be a lot of vigilance about the timing of which infusions are shut off when.

From a somewhat practical standpoint, in terms of relative drug costs, it is unlikely the cost associated with Precedex is proportional from the arguable benefit I see from its usage.
 
For any long potentially painful case such as thoracic or general surgery abdominal procedure, I almost always run a ketamine infusion unless there was a strong reason not to (pretty much none). I have never had PACU nurses or surgeons tell me their patient's minds were "garbled" either. At 0.1-0.2 mg/kg/hour preceded by a 0.25 - 0.5 mg bolus on induction, this low does has not been associated with any significant delirium and may decrease opioid requirements.
Coincidentally, I had a patient in the pacu last month who was a bit out of whack after his intraop doses of ketamine. Kept describing that he was feeling like he was there, but like he was also floating just a bit off. Now, I wouldn't necessarily call his mind "garbled" at that point cause he was speaking in complete intelligent sentences, but that man was high as a kite.
 
Coincidentally, I had a patient in the pacu last month who was a bit out of whack after his intraop doses of ketamine. Kept describing that he was feeling like he was there, but like he was also floating just a bit off. Now, I wouldn't necessarily call his mind "garbled" at that point cause he was speaking in complete intelligent sentences, but that man was high as a kite.

Does that mean that will cause permanent or clinically significant issues post op?
 
Coincidentally, I had a patient in the pacu last month who was a bit out of whack after his intraop doses of ketamine. Kept describing that he was feeling like he was there, but like he was also floating just a bit off. Now, I wouldn't necessarily call his mind "garbled" at that point cause he was speaking in complete intelligent sentences, but that man was high as a kite.


Is that bad?
 
Pain Medicine

JUNE 17, 2019
Patients Receiving Ketamine Plus Dexmedetomidine Combo Need Monitoring

San Diego—Surgical patients who receive analgesic doses of ketamine together with dexmedetomidine should be closely monitored before and immediately after they leave the hospital because of the potential neurocognitive and behavioral effects of the drug combination, a study has found.
“At analgesic doses required for pain relief, ketamine administered in combination with dexmedetomidine impairs thinking, behavior and memory,” said Amie Hayley, PhD, a senior research fellow at Swinburne University of Technology, in Victoria, Australia, who was the lead author of the study. “These effects occur both during the treatment period as the drugs are being administered and for up to two hours after treatment has concluded.”
Dr. Hayley and her colleagues at Monash Health, also in Victoria, Australia, explored the neurocognitive effects of ketamine alone and in combination with either dexmedetomidine or fentanyl on 39 patients. The patients received a ketamine bolus of 0.3 mg/kg, followed by a ketamine infusion of 0.15 mg/kg per hour for three hours. One hour and 30 minutes after receiving the ketamine dose, 19 patients received a dexmedetomidine infusion of 0.7 mcg/kg per hour (KET/DEX arm) and 20 received three 25-mcg fentanyl injections over 1.5 hours (KET/FENT arm).
Receiving only ketamine significantly reduced patients’ psychomotor speed, as well as the accuracy of responses to both simple and complex questions (all P<0.0001). In addition, recall and recognition memory also were impaired, but the ketamine did not alter executive functions, said Dr. Hayley, who presented the findings at the Society of Critical Care Medicine’s 2019 Critical Care Congress (abstract 100).
image
“Following co-administration of dexmedetomidine, performance effects were largely additive, and memory deficits in recall abilities were persistent at post-treatment (KET/DEX) (all P<0.0001),” the researchers noted in their abstract.
In contrast, those in the KET/FENT arm saw only a modest acute deficit in psychomotor accuracy and speed (all P<0.05).
“Group comparison at medication coadministration revealed comparatively greater neurocognitive deficits under the KET/DEX condition (all P<0.05),” Dr. Hayley said. “The concomitant administration of a ketamine bolus and dexmedetomidine infusion resulted in marked impairment on skills relating to psychomotor speed, attention, response inhibition, cognitive flexibility, mental processing and memory.”
Dr. Hayley said it was possible “the addition of dexmedetomidine enhances the pharmacodynamic effects of ketamine at these doses, producing synergistic analgesic and sedative effects, which have downstream implications for overt neurocognitive and behavioral abilities.”
One might be able to attribute the variations in neurocognitive performance with KET/DEX to the residual exacerbation of the alpha-2 adrenergic–mediated effects of dexmedetomidine, which would increase sedation, rather than through direct intoxication, she said.
Synergistic Effects?
Dr. Hayley said the findings are the first to demonstrate the residual neurocognitive and behavioral effects of ketamine when used with dexmedetomidine, and suggested a potential synergistic effect of these drugs when combined at analgesic doses. “This may have significant clinical implications regarding optimal patient care, both during the acute treatment phase and throughout the postoperative observation period,” she said.
The study’s findings are particularly important when a patient is being prepared for routine discharge from the hospital after surgery, according to Dr. Hayley. “In particular, it means that patients should be closely monitored before they leave the hospital in case they are still affected by the medications, and suggests that additional assessments may need to be undertaken to evaluate a patient’s home-readiness after leaving the hospital site and upon returning home,” she said.
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“Dr. Hayley and colleagues have demonstrated that some of the most commonly used sedative-hypnotics and analgesics in critical care units can adversely affect short-term cognitive abilities, particularly when combined,” explained Eric S. Schwenk, MD, an associate professor of anesthesiology at Jefferson University Hospitals, in Philadelphia, who was not part of the study but was asked to comment.
A comprehensive sedation assessment should be done before surgery and again before discharge, according to Dr. Hayley. “Thus, consideration should be given to a patient’s mental capacity and functional performance when determining appropriate treatment options in order to lessen potential aftereffects and to ensure appropriate functional outcomes prior to patient discharge and after the patient returns home from their hospital stay.”
Dr. Schwenk agreed: “These results may lead some intensivists to think twice before ordering these drugs in patients with preexisting cognitive dysfunction, especially the elderly.”
Dr. Schwenk noted, “The study did not look beyond the short term, so conclusions about long-term effects cannot be made. The study, while a good contribution to the field, should not dissuade anesthesiologists and others from using ketamine or dexmedetomidine in appropriate situations, as both agents have unique pharmacological profiles and provide excellent analgesia.”
Dr. Hayley added, “These results prompt us to recommend immediate replication studies in patient populations, which have significant potential for optimizing patient care during the acute and postoperative period under these treatment regimens.”
 
Pain Medicine

JUNE 17, 2019
Patients Receiving Ketamine Plus Dexmedetomidine Combo Need Monitoring

San Diego—Surgical patients who receive analgesic doses of ketamine together with dexmedetomidine should be closely monitored before and immediately after they leave the hospital because of the potential neurocognitive and behavioral effects of the drug combination, a study has found.
“At analgesic doses required for pain relief, ketamine administered in combination with dexmedetomidine impairs thinking, behavior and memory,” said Amie Hayley, PhD, a senior research fellow at Swinburne University of Technology, in Victoria, Australia, who was the lead author of the study. “These effects occur both during the treatment period as the drugs are being administered and for up to two hours after treatment has concluded.”
Dr. Hayley and her colleagues at Monash Health, also in Victoria, Australia, explored the neurocognitive effects of ketamine alone and in combination with either dexmedetomidine or fentanyl on 39 patients. The patients received a ketamine bolus of 0.3 mg/kg, followed by a ketamine infusion of 0.15 mg/kg per hour for three hours. One hour and 30 minutes after receiving the ketamine dose, 19 patients received a dexmedetomidine infusion of 0.7 mcg/kg per hour (KET/DEX arm) and 20 received three 25-mcg fentanyl injections over 1.5 hours (KET/FENT arm).
Receiving only ketamine significantly reduced patients’ psychomotor speed, as well as the accuracy of responses to both simple and complex questions (all P<0.0001). In addition, recall and recognition memory also were impaired, but the ketamine did not alter executive functions, said Dr. Hayley, who presented the findings at the Society of Critical Care Medicine’s 2019 Critical Care Congress (abstract 100).
image
“Following co-administration of dexmedetomidine, performance effects were largely additive, and memory deficits in recall abilities were persistent at post-treatment (KET/DEX) (all P<0.0001),” the researchers noted in their abstract.
In contrast, those in the KET/FENT arm saw only a modest acute deficit in psychomotor accuracy and speed (all P<0.05).
“Group comparison at medication coadministration revealed comparatively greater neurocognitive deficits under the KET/DEX condition (all P<0.05),” Dr. Hayley said. “The concomitant administration of a ketamine bolus and dexmedetomidine infusion resulted in marked impairment on skills relating to psychomotor speed, attention, response inhibition, cognitive flexibility, mental processing and memory.”
Dr. Hayley said it was possible “the addition of dexmedetomidine enhances the pharmacodynamic effects of ketamine at these doses, producing synergistic analgesic and sedative effects, which have downstream implications for overt neurocognitive and behavioral abilities.”
One might be able to attribute the variations in neurocognitive performance with KET/DEX to the residual exacerbation of the alpha-2 adrenergic–mediated effects of dexmedetomidine, which would increase sedation, rather than through direct intoxication, she said.
Synergistic Effects?
Dr. Hayley said the findings are the first to demonstrate the residual neurocognitive and behavioral effects of ketamine when used with dexmedetomidine, and suggested a potential synergistic effect of these drugs when combined at analgesic doses. “This may have significant clinical implications regarding optimal patient care, both during the acute treatment phase and throughout the postoperative observation period,” she said.
The study’s findings are particularly important when a patient is being prepared for routine discharge from the hospital after surgery, according to Dr. Hayley. “In particular, it means that patients should be closely monitored before they leave the hospital in case they are still affected by the medications, and suggests that additional assessments may need to be undertaken to evaluate a patient’s home-readiness after leaving the hospital site and upon returning home,” she said.
img-button

“Dr. Hayley and colleagues have demonstrated that some of the most commonly used sedative-hypnotics and analgesics in critical care units can adversely affect short-term cognitive abilities, particularly when combined,” explained Eric S. Schwenk, MD, an associate professor of anesthesiology at Jefferson University Hospitals, in Philadelphia, who was not part of the study but was asked to comment.
A comprehensive sedation assessment should be done before surgery and again before discharge, according to Dr. Hayley. “Thus, consideration should be given to a patient’s mental capacity and functional performance when determining appropriate treatment options in order to lessen potential aftereffects and to ensure appropriate functional outcomes prior to patient discharge and after the patient returns home from their hospital stay.”
Dr. Schwenk agreed: “These results may lead some intensivists to think twice before ordering these drugs in patients with preexisting cognitive dysfunction, especially the elderly.”
Dr. Schwenk noted, “The study did not look beyond the short term, so conclusions about long-term effects cannot be made. The study, while a good contribution to the field, should not dissuade anesthesiologists and others from using ketamine or dexmedetomidine in appropriate situations, as both agents have unique pharmacological profiles and provide excellent analgesia.”
Dr. Hayley added, “These results prompt us to recommend immediate replication studies in patient populations, which have significant potential for optimizing patient care during the acute and postoperative period under these treatment regimens.”

“These effects occur both during the treatment period as the drugs are being administered and for up to two hours after treatment has concluded.”

“The study did not look beyond the short term, so conclusions about long-term effects cannot be made.“

Who’s giving ketadex without monitoring? Are bush doctors using it in the outback?
 
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And who the heck gives 0.7 mcg/kg/hr to a postop patient, who's already loaded with other meds? If this is YOUR practice, pay attention, otherwise flush. I don't need a study to tell me that 50 mcg of precedex every hour will cause cognitive dysfunction in an adult, but I am an experienced physician who even hand-boluses that drug, not a PhD researcher trying to prove the obvious.

Did you know that mixing hot tea with hot coffee acts "synergistically" and increases the melting of ice?
 
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Lemme guess - Anesthesiology News article?

I said in another thread the name of that rag needs to be changed to “No S**t Monthly”. Other big articles this month include “Sicker Patients do Worse” and “Patients with Pre-Op Pulmonary Dysfunction More Likely to Have Post-Op Pulmonary Dysfunction”.
 
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Is that bad?

there are different ways to be "high"

this type of high can be scary psychologically, the kind of thing you have to experience to understand why you would NOT want it for yourself.

old folks are at risk for delirium already, doesnt it make sense that a psychomimmetic like ketamine would make that more likely to occur? makes sense to me, not worth the "benefit"
 
there are different ways to be "high"

this type of high can be scary psychologically, the kind of thing you have to experience to understand why you would NOT want it for yourself.

old folks are at risk for delirium already, doesnt it make sense that a psychomimmetic like ketamine would make that more likely to occur? makes sense to me, not worth the "benefit"

ketamine can be a wonderful medicine. I only give ketamine when the patients already have benzo in their system to help decrease the chances of unwanted psychological side effects. There is actually evidence ketamine decreases the incidence of postop or ICU delirium, probably because it is minimizing the need for other drugs.

In the thousands of patients I have seen receive it perioperatively, I can count on 1 hand the number that have had clinically significant delirium postop.
 
ketamine can be a wonderful medicine. I only give ketamine when the patients already have benzo in their system to help decrease the chances of unwanted psychological side effects. There is actually evidence ketamine decreases the incidence of postop or ICU delirium, probably because it is minimizing the need for other drugs.

In the thousands of patients I have seen receive it perioperatively, I can count on 1 hand the number that have had clinically significant delirium postop.

but how many are out there with scary dreams or weird feelings days and weeks later that they just dont report and attribute it to the stress of surgery/anesthesia? I dont need any hands or fingers to count the patients who became delirious because I use it so rarely
 
but how many are out there with scary dreams or weird feelings days and weeks later that they just dont report and attribute it to the stress of surgery/anesthesia? I dont need any hands or fingers to count the patients who became delirious because I use it so rarely


Those effects, when they happen, don’t last more than a few hours. Definitely not days or weeks.
 
Those effects, when they happen, don’t last more than a few hours. Definitely not days or weeks.

ask someone who's had a "bad trip" how long it lasted
 
but how many are out there with scary dreams or weird feelings days and weeks later that they just dont report and attribute it to the stress of surgery/anesthesia? I dont need any hands or fingers to count the patients who became delirious because I use it so rarely

using ketamine so rarely is not something to brag about
 
using ketamine so rarely is not something to brag about

Ketamine is in the same category as LSD, Mushrooms, DMT, Salvia.. try those and see how you like them.. im proud to not give it to my patients.
 
Ketamine is in the same category as LSD, Mushrooms, DMT, Salvia.. try those and see how you like them.. im proud to not give it to my patients.

Sorry, but that’s a ridiculous argument. That’s like saying “fentanyl is in the same category as heroin . . . I’m proud not to give it to my patients” or “ephedrine is in the same category as meth . . .”
 
ask someone who's had a "bad trip" how long it lasted
20min but it wasn't so bad 🙂.
It's funny that MD's give staggering amounts of prescription drugs but know so little about "recreational drugs".
Most of the time if you ask the patient if he was bothered by the hallucination he'll say he wasn't. But when the patient describes it we automatically associate hallucination to bad trip which we shouldn't.
 
Sorry, but that’s a ridiculous argument. That’s like saying “fentanyl is in the same category as heroin . . . I’m proud not to give it to my patients” or “ephedrine is in the same category as meth . . .”

not an argument but a reminder that this drug, like most we give, are poisons and not good for the brain and body if not necessary

one of these poisons is necessary and the other is completely avoidable

you cant really think that ketamine is as essential to your anesthetic as fentanyl and ephedrine..

im not proud to give any of these poisons but i know that sometimes you have to

think about how much we do to avoid giving opiates due to side effects/opiate crisis

here is a a dangerous drug that has 0 clinical impact and we are giving it
 
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20min but it wasn't so bad 🙂.
It's funny that MD's give staggering amounts of prescription drugs but know so little about "recreational drugs".
Most of the time if you ask the patient if he was bothered by the hallucination he'll say he wasn't. But when the patient describes it we automatically associate hallucination to bad trip which we shouldn't.

people can have terrible experiences with psychedelics resulting in permanent mental illness
 
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its not ridiculous because one of these poisons is necessary and the other is completely avoidable

im not proud to give any of these poisons but i know that sometimes you have to

think about how much we do to avoid giving opiates due to side effects/opiate crisis

here is a a dangerous drug that has 0 clinical impact and we are giving it
...

/Quietly exits the thread...
 
...

/Quietly exits the thread...

i could argue against ketamine until im blue in the face! sorry - i realize im in the minority but agree to disagree everybody - im out too
 
people can have terrible experiences with psychedelics resulting in permanent mental illness

Perhaps you yourself had a bad experience with psychedelics which you are now projecting - or maybe you were once attacked by a gang of hippies?? Either way, your very personal disdain for ketamine is a little odd. I do agree with you that we have gone overboard with demonizing opioids.

I have a pretty middle of the road stance on ketamine. It's useful in those patients who are significantly opioid tolerant. Their mu receptors are just way to F'd up. You'll never get there with opioids alone in these patients. You need to utilize another pathways i.e. NMDA, and ketamine is a good tool for that job. It's enhancement of evoked potential signals is also useful in patients with crappy baselines or for cancelling out the signal attenuation from volatiles.

I don't think it adds much to your general run of the mill anesthetics in opioid naive patients.
 
I love to use ketamine for my patients, especially in painful procedures,
usually 0.5 mg/kg IV bolus then 3-5 mcg/kg/min thereafter
Probably more than many anesthesiologists in my hospital (there's about 70 of us)
I've had a few take a little longer in recovery room, but I've never had a patient hallucinate
How you dose it matters
 
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