Is the licensure process for foreign trained dentist in USA out of touch?

[g3k]

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Than, I would like to have your opinion also for the same question:
Is it a right or a privilege to use the skills you have to work and support your family and of course yourself?👍

Is it a right or privilege?😉

Privilege...

 

[rarm1]

Than, I would like to have your opinion also for the same question:
Is it a right or a privilege to use the skills you have to work and support your family and of course yourself?👍

Is it a right or privilege?😉

You have the RIGHT to work and support your family (if you have the correct paperwork-VISA, etc)

But many things are PRIVILEGES:
The privilege to drive - can be taken away at any time.
The privileged to teach – even elementary school – can be taken away
The privilege to work as a MD, DDS, and attorney - all of these can be taken away at any time by due process.
And many more.


When I travel overseas I need special permission to teach and must go through all the paperwork... first time to VietNam it took 6 months. Now going through the right govt agents it is faster... but only for short periods of time. If I were to relocate, the short term teaching won’t count...

 

[NileBDS]

...

because with the clinical experience I have, and the fact that I passed the boards from the first attempt, I thought the dental schools will compete against each other only to have me and have my experience.

Well, this goes to show that you have entered this application process unprepared, and have sharply underestimated the competition (and quite frankly overestimated your own application).
Having successfully passed your NBDE exams and having fulfilled all other requirements, guarantees you only one thing; a fair opportunity to compete.

In America, no one is guaranteed success, only a shot at it.

And to answer your question, practicing Medicine is no one's right.

 

[shaunkthemonk]

Dear basher,
i have read your posts and following is for your reading pleasure.......
1.practicing dentistry,just like driving is a privelage and not a right(you should know this,, you have done 16 yrs of dentistry)
2.PASSING the board exams qualify you to APPLY and compete.it doesn't mean you are guranteed addmission.It is like soccer world cup sir,lots of teams qualify to compete but that doesn't mean every team gets the world cup.
3/ you claim 16 yrs of dentistry and passing all the required exams,you expected the universities to compete for you.Well,such rich experience and a so poor scores?something is wrong somewhere.if you are so good,as you claim you are why did you perform so poorly,look around you,you are nowhere in the race man.do you even meet the national average?
4.you say you are a survivor and a fighter, if that is true, why do u even think about going to Australia,New Zealand or Switzerland?you say you are a US citizen,my friend you will meet lot of dentists here on the forum who came as students for MPH,MBA,MHA etc.and are now trying for DDS,surprizingly none of them is complaining as much as you are.
Now the moment of truth,, diagnosis
you are a chronic severe case of a WHINEE, you do not want to work hard and compete but want to find a loophole somehow to get thru,and when you are unable to find one,, you complain and cry.you are probably behaving like a kid in a toy store,crying for a toy he is unable to get.OR are you like a fox who could'nt jump high enough and declaired that the grapes are sour.

 

[xerostomia]

Dear basher,
i have read your posts and following is for your reading pleasure.......
1.practicing dentistry,just like driving is a privelage and not a right(you should know this,, you have done 16 yrs of dentistry)
2.PASSING the board exams qualify you to APPLY and compete.it doesn't mean you are guranteed addmission.It is like soccer world cup sir,lots of teams qualify to compete but that doesn't mean every team gets the world cup.
3/ you claim 16 yrs of dentistry and passing all the required exams,you expected the universities to compete for you.Well,such rich experience and a so poor scores?something is wrong somewhere.if you are so good,as you claim you are why did you perform so poorly,look around you,you are nowhere in the race man.do you even meet the national average?
4.you say you are a survivor and a fighter, if that is true, why do u even think about going to Australia,New Zealand or Switzerland?you say you are a US citizen,my friend you will meet lot of dentists here on the forum who came as students for MPH,MBA,MHA etc.and are now trying for DDS,surprizingly none of them is complaining as much as you are.
Now the moment of truth,, diagnosis
you are a chronic severe case of a WHINEE, you do not want to work hard and compete but want to find a loophole somehow to get thru,and when you are unable to find one,, you complain and cry.you are probably behaving like a kid in a toy store,crying for a toy he is unable to get.OR are you like a fox who could'nt jump high enough and declaired that the grapes are sour.

I think this poor guy only needed few words of support and if we cann't we should not be atleast rude to him. He will definitely find some thing else if he cann't afford this privelage. Just immgaine by putting your self in his place. I think he is brave enough to go through all this proceedure 16 years after graduation and then to start a career from the begining.

 

[shaunkthemonk]

i do not mean to be rude,, although i may be blunt.
look at this fellow, just waste some time and read his posts.
this person needs to do atleast 3 things....
1. awake from his sleep and realize the competition he is in.(welcome to the real world doc)
2.instead of crying and finding loopholes,he needs to pick up his books ,,study and re-take the NDBE.
3.and last but not the least,if possible,he needs to grow up.

 

[malboro27]

i would like to suggest more respect for a 16 year experienced dentist, please ,i am sure nobody here got his experience in this forum ,just a few.no matter how u perform in ur exam I do know lot of dentists very very good in theory and they dont know how to extract a tooth or make a denture ,I have worked here as dental assistant and believe me what I have seen do not deserve even a mention.I know the programs are competitive ,and I also know we re in usa ,in a foreign country that has its own rules to practice and we ,as foreigner, must follow it ,thats the only thing basher should realize.i consider that for a person that has 16 years of experiece should be very hard to get a high score in part I ,eventhough nor imposible,more than 16 years without utilize the basic sciences ,cause to be honet everybody here knows very well that after graduation u do not utilize it ,just few concepts .so lets make suggestions and encourage the guy and do not critizise so hard that i am sure as i said above few here got his experience and 16 years of practice deserve some respect.

 

[shaunkthemonk]

i second you on that, after some years of dentistry in the field we tend to forget basic sciences,,, what about NDBE -II, it very much related to everyday dentistry and diagnosis.this fellow has a 78(75 is a pass).We are all in a competition here sir, and it does'nt matter if one of us has 16yrs experience and another has a mere 6 months,NDBE tests all of us on one level and so do the universities.and at the end of the day all that matters is how well we perform and not how many grey hair we have.
i have nothing personal against basher, but, if he has realized(and i hope he has)how stiff the competition is,instead of crying and harping on his experience he should try getting competitive scores in his NDBE .
Even if he gets into a program,,just take a moment and imagine this person in a dental school's class or clinic along with regular third yr students,, i bet that not a day will pass without him complaining and whining because he will be required to learn and pass the competencies like a third yr student.
this person needs to realize the ground realities and stop being egoistic about his past, he needs to blend in

 

[nejnej]

I was trying to figure out what basher is complaining all about.

I just have a questions regarding getting the passing score of the NDB"S.As I look at it as examinees tend to increase they scores such as getting a competetive score to go to IDP's.The national mean average tend to increase also.

All of the exams are being held in the computers right now.As I look at it they are getting national mean average scores.For example I took the NDBE part 2 and the national passing score was 440 out of 500 which is I think getting higher and higher as examinees tend to increase they scores.

The problem with the first time takers such as basher or let say I am going to take it for the first time is that I may be able to have a hard time getting 440 or if let say I took it and I got 450 my scores would somehat be on 78's or something.Still very low scores equivalents but very good scores.

If examinees would want to increase they score more, its not impossible to see national mean score goes up to 480 out of 500.Very unfair to first time takers.

This is the problem with the computer scores as many people are thingking of retaking their exams now.Getting very competive.Getting very unfair to first time examinees.It's not getting a reliable criterion of knowledge of an individual as people are reaking it making the national mean score higher.Making it very hard to foreign examinees to pass.

This is just my analysis.I want to ask your opinion on this also.

 

[basher]

i do not mean to be rude,, although i may be blunt.
look at this fellow, just waste some time and read his posts.
this person needs to do atleast 3 things....
1. awake from his sleep and realize the competition he is in.(welcome to the real world doc)
2.instead of crying and finding loopholes,he needs to pick up his books ,,study and re-take the NDBE.
3.and last but not the least,if possible,he needs to grow up.

Thank you for your respond,😎
I appreciate your opinion although I don't agree with it, I would like to ask you not to play the smart guy and be constructive trying to understand the different points of vue if it's different than yours. We have to learn to accept each other.
1- First you have to know that I am a leader, if I didn't feel there is something wrong with the licensure process I wouldn't speak out, do the same as I am doing, listen and try to understand the other point of views with respect, so you can learn.
2. Before I took the board part 1, I asked many National Dentists, they all told me the same thing the passing score is 75% and I need only to pass the board as they did, and I will be fine. In good faith my friend that's what I did.
3. The first time I heard the word compete, I was surprised. I asked: compete what for? I am already a dentist. "To compete to be a dentist and you are already a dentist" it sounds weird; it doesn't make sense to me, I have already competed long time ago!
4. How come in BU advanced standing program for the year 2005-2006, they selected 49 candidates from the same country out of 70 positions and they didn't select any of the 17 United States applicants! Where's my friend the diversity?
5. I studied and passed the boards in all subjects from the first attempt, although I was working and supporting my family with the help of no one, knowing that I previously graduated from a non English dental school. So try to understand the situation before attacking trying to be destructive.
6. I will tell you the Switzerland question what is about, I have a friend who got the license to practice dentistry there. The process was very simple and just for a foreign trained dentist to be evaluated: First he did a written test of 100 dental practical questions thereafter he did five days clinical exam. No less no more and his prefix was respected all the way.
7. What do you think you are achieving if you are repeating the toefl and the board part one which is the basic sciences over and over again to have higher scores besides wasting time and energy and filling the pockets of the profit organizations? And also why we don't say that the board passing score instead of 75% is 90% and this rule is implemented to both National and International dentists?
8. If I don't speak it doesn't mean I am weak, I have self esteem, proud and self respect for me and for the others.
Be patient my friend and let's go step by step for the benefit of the entire US citizen foreign trained dentists, unless you are neither foreign trained dentist nor a citizen.
Happy Thanksgiving.👍

 

[mass]

what worries me is that, i am thinking of doing dentistry in india and i doubt i will be get back into uk or us🙁🙁

 

[shaunkthemonk]

The first time I heard the word compete, I was surprised. I asked: compete what for? I am already a dentist. "To compete to be a dentist and you are already a dentist" it sounds weird; it doesn't make sense to me, I have already competed long time ago

Dear basher
knowing that we finally have a LEADER on the forum comes as no big surprize to me.I don't have to struggle hard so as to figure out what kind of leader you are and the kind of group you are leading,i am certainly not a part of that group.
dear Mr.proud,you have still not understood the process,,you are not competing to be a dentist,but,you are competing to become a student.i will try and put it in a simpler(if there is one)manner,you are taking all these exams so as to prove to the dental schools that you have a certain level of understanding of the subject,now needless to say that the scores speak for themselves about a person abilities and understanding of the subject.Dental schools, like any other institution or organization want to associate themselves with the best students ,students who are good,have a sound level of knowledge,they or any other corporation or organization in the world which wants to thrive want to pick best for themselves,that's the reason things like percentile,percentage,GPA etc exist,these help in grading a person's ability.
now in your case,the whole reason you are complaing so much is that you probably did not understand the concept of competition and you think that we are competing to become a dentist,, no my dear we are competing to become a dental student.
i have couple of questions for you,
1.do you mind sharing the country you were a dentist in and your GPA?
2.you have been turned down by dental schools for so long now, by being on this forum you probably might have figured out the kind of scores required for acceptance,and you claim that you have a sound knowledge and understanding of the subject,then rather than being bitter,why don't you be better and try and get good scores??
and you say you are done competing,,well here is something which might come as another rude shock to you O Wise one(and don't complain later that no one told you)if you think that you are done competing,wait until the day you start a dental practice.
words in bold are key words

 

[bulgogi]

Basher, you are whining.

There are a variety of valid reasons why the U.S. does not automatically grant a licence to foreign trained dentists. While some countries have great programs, some don't. In some countries, a student can get into school because they come from a priveledged family. Some students can get all the way through school without learning anything because the instructors are afraid of the connections that their students have. In some countries, if you failed out of school, you can simply buy forged documents. Because of these reasons, the U.S. has to have a method where they can make sure that they are not letting a bad dentist into the population. If they didn't they would be legally liable for damages if someone was harmed because of their poor policies. These damages could be in the millions in the right mixture of situations.

I got an interview this year, but did not get in. I have been trying for only a few years, and have taken classes at night in English and Anatomy when I could to help my chances. I am not blaming anyone that I didn't get in. Of course I would like to go, and aso I will try again, maybe try to improve my scores, maybe try to make myself more competitive. I know, and the schools know, that the scores aren't a judge of a true dentist, but they only have so many spots. If you think it is unfair that there are so few spots, try doing a little reading. As foreign trained programs grow, overall programs are actually decreasing in number. That means that less and less U.S. students are going to dental school. It's not all about you, it's the nature of the system.

The most ridiculous thing is that you claim things are unfair because you asked a few people what was required to get in and it didn't seem to match reality. I got to tell you, if that is the maximum level of your ability to research a subject, you probably aren't qualified for any school that likes its students to have done research. Second, once you found out that you had to compete, it sounds like your solution is just to cite unfairness at every level to the ADA, the schools, the U.S., etc. Everyone is to blame but you.

Yet you claim to be a leader... Those are not the qualities of a leader.

You seem to have a misperception of the working of the country as a whole. I could be wrong, but the style of your writing indicates to me that you expect things from people just because you are you. Maybe you grew up priveledged, and never really had to really truly sacrifice to get those things that you wanted or needed in life. Of course if you did, you might deny it, since playing a victim seems to be a central argument in your posts. I can tell you that I, like a lot of people on this board most likely, had many days when I didn't have food growing up. I've seen people get handed education opportunities that I worked for my whole life just because they were from a certain group, or had family connections. Sometimes, this is just how life is. It's unfortunate, but true - even in the states (UCLA ortho). However, there are times I worked like crazy, and got what I wanted. As far as U.S. schools go, I've never held the U.S. in contempt. It really is a good place to live overall, and except for a few countries, is probably one of the fairest places in the world to live when it comes to employment or education. Your rights here are not universal though...

Yes, maybe the system could work differently, and poen special schools that were accredited that would only take foreign trained dentists, but there are a few problems with this. Other schools are already closing because they are too costly to operate. Few dentists want to teach when they can make a better salary working. Plus the ADA also is of the opinion that the number of dentists is ok. ( The NY times recently disagreed, and I agree with the times on this issue)

Also, you CAN go get licensed without going to school. minnesota allows it. Do some research and go get a license there. However, you might not be able to get a great job or a prosperous outside of your home nation community because insurance companies might think you are a risk if you haven't studied here. There is a lot to know about insurance practices, ethics, standards of care and responsibility that are different from your home country.

I think the high standards that the US has makes their reputation as dentists tops through the world. In my country, we thought the US dentists were great, though bought German equiptment and medicine when we could.

Finally, I really think your English would need to improve to do well in school or in a dentists office that treats English speaking patients.

I'm sorry because I know this comes off as rough, but its just how it is.

 

[basher]

Basher, you are whining.

Dear pre-dental
I was not surprise that you didn't understand anything, I will wait until, first you pass the DAT, second be selected by a dental school, third you graduate with a DDS degree. Than, at that moment, I will try to explain to you the situation.
Regarding my english, I want you to know that I speak four languages.

“In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against.”👍

 

[basher]

Than, I would like to have your opinion also for the same question:
Is it a right or a privilege to use the skills you have to work and support your family and of course yourself?👍

Is it a right or privilege?😉

Dear fellow dentist
Again the same question, your opinion regarding this question is important, try to be constractive.

 

[bulgogi]

It is purely a privledge. In fact, I can't think of a situation in which any political or economic institution could grant the entire population, especially non-citizens of the country, the right to work in whatever field they choose.

There are no rights, nor should there be for anyone to work in any profession they choose because not everyone that wants to work in a high paying, intellectually demanding field can do so. This is basic market economics.

I don't need to take the DAT because I am applying to advanced standing programs for foreign dentists. I am also an experienced dentist from my home country. I have passed the Part 1 board and the TOEFL.

So, I am in the same situation as you. I don't need to get through dental school before relating to the situation.

Also, I speak multiple languages as well. So does just about everyone on this message board. It isn't something that makes a person stand out here or when applying to schools.

So tell me, if you are so concerned with rights and liberties of this country, would you volunteer to sacrifice for these liberties, or do you just expect them because you ended up here? Would you serve in the military of the U.S. if they needed you to help protect these freedoms in deperate times?

 

[shaunkthemonk]

dear basher
would you please share your GPA and the country where you practiced dentistry.
almost everyone who has responded to your thread has tried to put sence in your mind and reason out the situation, we all failed, and to be honest with you i tried doing it because you are one of us .
Now tell me what is your plan? you have put up an argument and claimed to be a leader,can you please elaborate on your future plans;i mean that you have taken NDBE-I and II and TOEFL and have been applying to schools for last 4 yrs(excuse me if i am wrong) where do we go from here.what is the plan of action?are you suing the schools for not granting an addmission?or the ADA for not allowing you to directly practice? suing the state dental board for not granting a licence without going to school?or the United states for not giving you the right to practice dentistry?
have you contacted any lawers, is there a lawsuit in place?
apart from complaining and whining and not showing your worth in the exams,what are you doing about the situation?
please share

 

[elto]

I would just sit here with my big bag of popcorn.......

 

[basher]

dear basher
would you please share your GPA and the country where you practiced dentistry.
almost everyone who has responded to your thread has tried to put sence in your mind and reason out the situation, we all failed, and to be honest with you i tried doing it because you are one of us .
Now tell me what is your plan? you have put up an argument and claimed to be a leader,can you please elaborate on your future plans;i mean that you have taken NDBE-I and II and TOEFL and have been applying to schools for last 4 yrs(excuse me if i am wrong) where do we go from here.what is the plan of action?are you suing the schools for not granting an addmission?or the ADA for not allowing you to directly practice? suing the state dental board for not granting a licence without going to school?or the United states for not giving you the right to practice dentistry?
have you contacted any lawers, is there a lawsuit in place?
apart from complaining and whining and not showing your worth in the exams,what are you doing about the situation?
please share

Hello my friend fellow dentist,welcome back
I will try to answer the questions as possible, because it's a sensitive case please try to understand and listen;
First you asked about the GPA, the dental school I graduated from doesn't have the GPA system the same as most of the europeen countries. and also most of the dental schools here know this fact, that's why they don't take it into consideration in the admission process.ECE=3.5 WES=3.8
.The country I practiced dentistry or where I was living, these won't add anything to the case, it's not a personal issue, but I can tell you I am a proud US citizen, and we are all the children of God.
.About my plans, I am still in the process, I would like to ask you to be patient, be honest giving you opinion and be positive. I would like to thank you all for your valuable assistance and help... God bless you.
The quota of foreign-trained dentists who can become licensed has been limited to the dental school selection number since the year 2003 in California and before that date in most states. Previously, we foreign dental applicants were allowed to take the clinical board exam after we completed and passed Parts I and II of the National Dental Board examinations, and the Restorative Techniques (RT) examination. It use to be that the foreign trained dentist who passed the National Board Dental exams didn’t need the qualification program, it was an option. Not anymore. Requirements for Licensure for foreign dentists have changed.
your opinion is appreciated: why do you think this change happened and who's behind it?😳👍

 

[basher]

I would just sit here with my big bag of popcorn.......

Bon appetit! Buen provecho!

 

[hardfeeling]

I have the same problem for three years, a foreign dentist, passed part 1 and 2 and Toefl, but not a license or could not make a two year program.

I have no idea what i should do, but i know i am desperate and could not sleep.

there is a proverb in my country that if a child do not cry, the mother does not give milk to the child. Honesty we need a leader to demonstrate our problem.

Dear Basher, please tell us what we should do to solve the problem.

 

[shaunkthemonk]

dear basher and other members of the whining party
keep the good work on but please enlighten the less evolved creatures like me with your plan,exactly how do you plan to change the existing system?will it be by a lawsuit(if a lawer is willing to take it up)or a demonstration in front of ADA office in chicago(it gets a bit cold during this time of the year out there).
guys,stop wasting your time on crying instead channelize your energies,work hard, prepair yourself well for the exams and re-take them,try and get good scores.believe me ,it works.
Change your attitude and things will fall in place,there are no shortcuts for success.

 

[basher]

dear basher and other members of the whining party
keep the good work on but please enlighten the less evolved creatures like me with your plan,exactly how do you plan to change the existing system?will it be by a lawsuit(if a lawer is willing to take it up)or a demonstration in front of ADA office in chicago(it gets a bit cold during this time of the year out there).
guys,stop wasting your time on crying instead channelize your energies,work hard, prepair yourself well for the exams and re-take them,try and get good scores.believe me ,it works.
Change your attitude and things will fall in place,there are no shortcuts for success.

Dear dentist
I know what you are trying to do; you want us to surrender to the money hunger profit organizations .
If our fellow dentist hardfeeling is saying that he paid the legal tender and passed successfully the NBDE part1, part 2 and the Toefl,, although he's a foreign trained dentist with a "Legal Status".
What can he do more?? In your case I will suggest a NBDE part 3, only to make his life harder, and make you happy.
Be nice please we understand your point of view, try to understand ours. To pass the Boards is neither a piece of cake nor a field trip, if he's not a serious doctor and studied hard he wouldn't achieved what his counterpart National Dentists do, after four years of study here in this great Nation of Justice.
Again be positive please and God bless U for your good heart

 

[monreal]

I would just sit here with my big bag of popcorn.......

Are you serious? Everytime I read in this thread I get diarrhea. Please guys, don't keep it alive!

 

[shaunkthemonk]

sir,
you are once again avoiding my question..
what is your plan to overcome this hurdle? i understand that you are against the current trend and the system and want a right to practice your profession etc, etc. etc.
again, WHAT IS THE ACTION PLAN TO OVERCOME THIS HURDLE,WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?HOW DO YOU THINK YOU CAN MEND THIS SYSTEM?

please write the golden words for the betterment of the entire "foreign trained dentist community" my lord
PS if they ever decide to test me on something called NDBE-III, i will crack that exam too,so powerful is my determination and so high is my confidence , i will crack any exam which is required to achieve my goal( and i will do that without crying or whining)

 

[basher]

I have the same problem for three years, a foreign dentist, passed part 1 and 2 and Toefl, but not a license or could not make a two year program.

I have no idea what i should do, but i know i am desperate and could not sleep.

there is a proverb in my country that if a child do not cry, the mother does not give milk to the child. Honesty we need a leader to demonstrate our problem.

Dear Basher, please tell us what we should do to solve the problem.

Dear Desperate Doctor Hardfeeling
I feel your pain, believe me.
First I want you to change your status from a Pre-Dental to Dentist, and be a proud one, because you achieved a lot.
Second as you know the proverb “you need two hands to applaud”. So don’t worry we will work as a team, to find a way out, with all the doctors that called me and are in the same boat to make our voices heard.
Best Regards👍

 

[elto]

Are you serious? Everytime I read in this thread I get diarrhea. Please guys, don't keep it alive!

I have a strong stomach...... 😀

 

[xerostomia]

 

[basher]

sir,
you are once again avoiding my question..
what is your plan to overcome this hurdle? i understand that you are against the current trend and the system and want a right to practice your profession etc, etc. etc.
again, WHAT IS THE ACTION PLAN TO OVERCOME THIS HURDLE,WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?HOW DO YOU THINK YOU CAN MEND THIS SYSTEM?

please write the golden words for the betterment of the entire "foreign trained dentist community" my lord
PS if they ever decide to test me on something called NDBE-III, i will crack that exam too,so powerful is my determination and so high is my confidence , i will crack any exam which is required to achieve my goal( and i will do that without crying or whining)

Dear good heart Dr
We cracked the Boards and also we cracked the toefl, and believe me it wasn't easy.
We are not asking for a Universal recognition of our status, we worked hard too, to get the board certificate.
You keep asking what are you going to do, what's your plan. I can tell you one thing there is no magic stick; we have to find a legal way to make our voices heard. Where there is a will there is a way.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere".👍

 

[NileBDS]

This thread/discussion has become redundant, and is going no where constructive.

Closing.