Is the University of Toronto considered an elite medical school?

[WingedOx]

Another thing to recognize is that just in general, degrees from outside the US (exceptions being the notable European schools like Oxford and Cambridge and a few others) are often not really respected. For example, IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) and Peking University are the like respective "Harvard's" of India and China in terms of prestige in those counties. The admission standards are ridiculous. Yet in the US, there would be tons of American schools (that are all probably a lot easier to get into) that would be considered more prestigious than are IIT and Peking.

Given that Canadian schools are LCME, I'm not sure that your caveat applies here.

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[WingedOx]

I expressed my doubt that residency directors would view U of T as better than Penn/Yale/Columbia/Stanford. This is just derived from common sense. Of course I can't know for sure what they would think. But I highly doubt that sacholver's view would be the prevailing view. It's not that radical to think U of T would NOT be considered better than those schools in terms of prestige...

Which brings up another point - if you need to ask the question, then chances are, the school is not elite. It's rare to see a question like "Is Penn elite?" because the answer is self-evident. Additionally, if there is controversy over the school's supposed "eliteness," then the school is probably not elite.

It's as if someone took a PFTCommenter post and replaced "quarterback" with "school"

 

[justadream]

Given that Canadian schools are LCME, I'm not sure that your caveat applies here.

I'm not referring to accreditation status. I know they are LCME. I'm just referring to general prestige of foreign schools as it exists in the US. There are a ton of highly selective (and arguably much more selective) and great schools from around the world that are not in the US. I'm talking about schools like Peking University, NUS, IIT, etc.

But except for a few European schools like Oxbridge (and some others), most of these schools are not really viewed with as much respect in the US.

For example, Harvard is viewed as one of the best (if not the best) school by US people. Harvard is also viewed as one of the best (if not the best) schools in Europe, Asia, Africa, etc. The few European schools I referred to (like Oxbridge) enjoy the same status.

But look at a school like Peking or NUS. In their respective countries they are viewed as undeniably elite. But in the US, their relative prestige is not as high.

Now apply this logic to a good Canadian school (like U of T). It is viewed as great in Canada but in the US, the prestige is diminished.

I am assuming the OP was asking about how U of T is viewed in the US. If not, then I retract everything I said.

 

[yogabbagabba]

I expressed my doubt that residency directors would view U of T as better than Penn/Yale/Columbia/Stanford. This is just derived from common sense. Of course I can't know for sure what they would think. But I highly doubt that sacholver's view would be the prevailing view. It's not that radical to think U of T would NOT be considered better than those schools in terms of prestige...

This is all opinion, which is not that convincing as you haven't made any effort to explain your thoughts -- both originally and even now. You assert that it is common sense and that most would agree with you without actually stating why. I gave you rankings as potential evidence, you dismissed them, and even now still fail to bring up any of your own. If you can come up with a convincing argument that U of T is not an elite school, I would 100% agree with you, but I'm not inclined to believed you when all you're doing is stating your opinion and presuming that the most would agree.

Which brings up another point - if you need to ask the question, then chances are, the school is not elite. It's rare to see a question like "Is Penn elite?" because the answer is self-evident. Additionally, if there is controversy over the school's supposed "eliteness," then the school is probably not elite.

You clearly believe U of T is elite. So I'm not even sure why you asked the question.

I'm asking the question because it's a Canadian school, and it's rarely, if ever, brought up. I was curious about what Americans thought (as I presume most of the people on this board are). I would agree with you if I brought up a low tier US school and asked the same question, as there is no debate.

 

[WingedOx]

Now apply this logic to a good Canadian school (like U of T). It is viewed as great in Canada but in the US, the prestige is diminished.

Sure, but not to anyone whose opinion actually matters.

 

[justadream]

This is all opinion, which is not that convincing as you haven't made any effort to explain your thoughts -- both originally and even now. You assert that it is common sense and that most would agree with you without actually stating why. I gave you rankings as potential evidence, you dismissed them, and even now still fail to bring up any of your own. If you can come up with a convincing argument that U of T is not an elite school, I would 100% agree with you, but I'm not inclined to believed you when all you're doing is stating your opinion and presuming that the most would agree.



I'm asking the question because it's a Canadian school, and it's rarely, if ever, brought up. I was curious about what Americans thought (as I presume most of the people on this board are). I would agree with you if I brought up a low tier US school and asked the same question, as there is no debate.

That's because things like reputation and prestige are inherently subjective. You can't really quantify it perfectly.

As for explaining why certain schools are prestigious, that is highly complex and is irrelevant to the topic. Who cares why one school is prestigious? The fact is just that it is.

I'm sure one could write a whole book about why HMS is prestigious. But it doesn't matter how it got to that status. HMS is prestigious today* and every (non-delusional) person recognizes it.

I'm the messenger here. I wasn't the person that made HMS prestigious (or that made U of T not at the level of say HMS/Penn/Stanford/Hopkins/WashU/UCSF/etc as viewed in the US). I'm just reporting the reality.

Whether I agree with this reality (e.g., whether I think HMS is really that good or whether I think HMS is vastly overrated and not really better than any other school) is another story.

I know you want me (and others) to say that U of T is elite. So again, I don't know why you asked the question. You already made up your mind.

 

[WingedOx]

That's because things like reputation and prestige are inherently subjective. You can't really quantify it perfectly.

As for explaining why certain schools are prestigious, that is highly complex and is irrelevant to the topic. Who cares why one school is prestigious? The fact is just that it is.

I'm sure one could write a whole book about why HMS is prestigious. But it doesn't matter how it got to that status. HMS is prestigious today* and every (non-delusional) person recognizes it.

I'm the messenger here. I wasn't the person that made HMS prestigious (or that made U of T not at the level of say HMS/Penn/Stanford/Hopkins/WashU/UCSF/etc as viewed in the US). I'm just reporting the reality.

Whether I agree with this reality (e.g., whether I think HMS is really that good or whether I think HMS is vastly overrated and not really better than any other school) is another story.

I know you want me (and others) to say that U of T is elite. So again, I don't know why you asked the question. You already made up your mind.

So what you're saying is UT is the Joe Flacco of med schools... got it.

 

[justadream]

So what you're saying is UT is the Joe Flacco of med schools... got it.

Lol I like this analogy:

I think UT is more like one of the better starting quarterbacks in the CFL (Canadian Football League).

Yes, he might be well regarded in Canada but in the US, not so much.

Joe Flacco would be more like Dartmouth Med. Much more well recognized in the US than a starting quarterback in the CFL.

 

[NewHorizons]

I'm not referring to accreditation status. I know they are LCME. I'm just referring to general prestige of foreign schools as it exists in the US. There are a ton of highly selective (and arguably much more selective) and great schools from around the world that are not in the US. I'm talking about schools like Peking University, NUS, IIT, etc.

But except for a few European schools like Oxbridge (and some others), most of these schools are not really viewed with as much respect in the US.

For example, Harvard is viewed as one of the best (if not the best) school by US people. Harvard is also viewed as one of the best (if not the best) schools in Europe, Asia, Africa, etc. The few European schools I referred to (like Oxbridge) enjoy the same status.

But look at a school like Peking or NUS. In their respective countries they are viewed as undeniably elite. But in the US, their relative prestige is not as high.

Now apply this logic to a good Canadian school (like U of T). It is viewed as great in Canada but in the US, the prestige is diminished.

I am assuming the OP was asking about how U of T is viewed in the US. If not, then I retract everything I said.

You know that's probably because of the self-centred nature of American education... thinking they are the best and putting little time to being informed about international students.

Anyways it's clear you have an agenda against Canadians and other international schools, and I won't oblige you anymore by responding to your posts.

 

[justadream]

You know that's probably because of the self-centred nature of American education... thinking they are the best and putting little time to being informed about international students.

Anyways it's clear you have an agenda against Canadians and other international schools, and I won't oblige you anymore by responding to your posts.

Actually it's just the opposite. Personally, I think international schools should be respected MORE (see my posts about in this thread about Peking University, IIT, NUS, etc.). But in the US they aren't. I wish they were to a greater extent but they aren't. That's all I'm saying.

 

[WingedOx]

Lol I like this analogy:

I think UT is more like one of the better starting quarterbacks in the CFL (Canadian Football League).

Yes, he might be well regarded in Canada but in the US, not so much.

Joe Flacco would be more like Dartmouth Med. Much more well recognized in the US than a starting quarterback in the CFL.

Eh, that's kind of shiatty analogy because the CFL is staffed mainly with fringe American players.

More like McGill or UT is Dan Carter, but you don't watch Rugby so your opinion is irrelevant.

 

[Petrichor1]

I was under the assumption that U of Toronto and McGill were the top schools in Canada. I may be wrong.

no they are..only reason I know this is because I considered them when applying to college so doing my intensive research helps out here. McGill would probably be ranked higher than UofT in my book. Queen's is also really nice.

 

[LaurenAlexandra711]

That one person was sacholiver (see post #22 in this thread). The rankings referred to in this thread are not a ranking of medical schools (after all, MIT does not have a medical school and it is included).

I expressed my doubt that residency directors would view U of T as better than Penn/Yale/Columbia/Stanford. This is just derived from common sense. Of course I can't know for sure what they would think. But I highly doubt that sacholver's view would be the prevailing view. It's not that radical to think U of T would NOT be considered better than those schools in terms of prestige...

Which brings up another point - if you need to ask the question, then chances are, the school is not elite. It's rare to see a question like "Is Penn elite?" because the answer is self-evident. Additionally, if there is controversy over the school's supposed "eliteness," then the school is probably not elite.

You clearly believe U of T is elite. So I'm not even sure why you asked the question.

Actually, in Canada, we don't refer to schools as being "Ivy League", but we do know which ones hold the most prestige here (UofT, McGill, Waterloo, Queens). Those, from what I've heard, would be considered our Ivy League schools. Considering how ignorant Americans tend to be about Canada and Canadian culture (not necessarily in a bad way, and I lived in NY for a graduate degree for two years, so I have firsthand experience with this) I'm guessing the OP wanted to know more so if America recognizes UofT rightfully as an elite school, as it does for HMS, Yale, etc. Canadian medical schools place more emphasis on GPA than the MCAT because of how few schools there are (17 or 18 across the country). GPA holds more value because it shows an applicant's performance over a longer period of time than the MCAT, which is just one test. Also, I'm pretty sure residency directors are much more well-versed in medical school program quality worldwide than you, and while they may reserve more residency spots for American medical school graduates simply to give preference to their own, I highly doubt they would discount the quality of education of a Canadian graduate, especially if they perform as well or better on the Step exams.

 

[WedgeDawg]

1. When I think "Canada" and "elite school" I think McGill. Does this mean this perception is correct? No, but it is the one that exists in my brainwashed American mind.

2. Is UToronto an elite school? No idea. Maybe in Canada, but there are enough Harvard/ Yale/Stanford/etc grads here that Americans don't really need to look beyond the borders for "elite grads" (exception might be Cambridge and Oxford because of things like Rhodes Scholarships and the like).

3. Does it matter? I'm sure UToronto is a great school. I have heard great things about their research programs. But if you're trying to become a doctor in the US, you shouldn't go to a non-US med school no matter how "elite" it is.

4. At the above: US residencies take US students predominantly because residency funding is provided by the US government to produce US physicians. A Canadian grad who may want to relocate back to Canada is less of a risk than someone from a US school.

5. If you ask anyone on the street what an "elite school" is, you'll hear Harvard/Yale/MIT/some variation of this. If you ask them about elite non-US universities, they'll either give you a blank stare or say Cambridge or Oxford. So in terms of layperson prestige, no, among Americans, UToronto is not an "elite" school.

6. Does Toronto deserve to be heralded as an "elite" school in America? Maybe, why do you care? If it's so you can say you go to an elite school, then it doesn't matter. If it's so you get preference for matching to a US residency, you're already generally behind American medical students because you didn't go to a US school, so it doesn't really matter. If it's so you can match to an excellent Canadian program, then why does it matter what Americans think?

So bottom line is more or less I don't understand why it matters whether Americans think UToronto is an elite school or not.

 

[LaurenAlexandra711]

1. When I think "Canada" and "elite school" I think McGill. Does this mean this perception is correct? No, but it is the one that exists in my brainwashed American mind.

2. Is UToronto an elite school? No idea. Maybe in Canada, but there are enough Harvard/ Yale/Stanford/etc grads here that Americans don't really need to look beyond the borders for "elite grads" (exception might be Cambridge and Oxford because of things like Rhodes Scholarships and the like).

3. Does it matter? I'm sure UToronto is a great school. I have heard great things about their research programs. But if you're trying to become a doctor in the US, you shouldn't go to a non-US med school no matter how "elite" it is.

4. At the above: US residencies take US students predominantly because residency funding is provided by the US government to produce US physicians. A Canadian grad who may want to relocate back to Canada is less of a risk than someone from a US school.

5. If you ask anyone on the street what an "elite school" is, you'll hear Harvard/Yale/MIT/some variation of this. If you ask them about elite non-US universities, they'll either give you a blank stare or say Cambridge or Oxford. So in terms of layperson prestige, no, among Americans, UToronto is not an "elite" school.

6. Does Toronto deserve to be heralded as an "elite" school in America? Maybe, why do you care? If it's so you can say you go to an elite school, then it doesn't matter. If it's so you get preference for matching to a US residency, you're already generally behind American medical students because you didn't go to a US school, so it doesn't really matter. If it's so you can match to an excellent Canadian program, then why does it matter what Americans think?

So bottom line is more or less I don't understand why it matters whether Americans think UToronto is an elite school or not.

I agree with what you say here. I think that a lot of the influence on which schools are perceived as elite comes down to the media: most often the schools in the US are the ones highlighted, and from what I've seen it's usually the elite schools there. And most blockbuster films, at least the ones showcased in North America, are made in the US, so of course those are the schools highlighted. I am not sure what the motive was of the original poster in asking the question, so I can't assume if they wanted to know just out of curiosity or if they are wanting to know for their future educational/career decisions, but either way I don't think there was any harm in them asking. And, yes, as I understand it, residency programs are funded by Medicare? So I completely understand the preference for US grads to fill those spots, and very few non-US grads are granted them. Although, I do know of a medical grad from India who is currently doing a cardiology fellowship, and also completed his residency, at Mayo in Rochester, MN. Now that was a grand slam for him, if you ask me!

 

[p0gono]

Is Vanderbilt elite? Discuss.

(This is fun)

 

[Almighty Saguaro]

The whole elite vs. not elite thing is partly dependent on where you are. For example, Wash U. is well-regarded in the US but I have Canadian friends who have never even heard of it (and obviously would not recognize it as "elite").

I say this to partially counter the idea that Americans are just self-centered and don't think highly of non-American "brand names".

 

[NotASerialKiller]

I was under the assumption that U of Toronto and McGill were the top schools in Canada. I may be wrong.

They are the internationally known schools. Their medical programs are on par with other Canadian schools, though, there really isn't much of a difference. Some people maintain that students from the 3-year programs (McMaster and Calgary) are a bit behind when starting residency, but in terms of quality of education they're all similar.

If you tell someone from the states that you went to McGill or UofT they might say "Oh, I know that school". If that's really important to you, so be it.

 

[futureworlddoc]

I may be biased because I didn't get in. However, Canadian schools have few prerequisites compared to US schools. When I studied back in the day in undergrad, I took very hard sciences thinking that medical schools wanted people who show interest in genetics, biochem, immunology, dissection. My harder course choices (than say human geography or music in film - these being easier in the sense of marking schemes alone like all MC tests, no papers, no labs, memorizing which song is popular in which film)..cost me a lower GPA than the 3.9 to 4.0 that current Canadian applicants have because they fish out every bird course on campus and schools encourage this in the name of diversity of applicants. Plenty of people I know would have no chance in the US simply for the way their course selections look - 1st years in 4th year, no labs etc. This is what makes it harder to get into Canada - just have to know from the start to play the game and pay tuition for those bird classes.

 

[Almighty Saguaro]

I may be biased because I didn't get in. However, Canadian schools have few prerequisites compared to US schools. When I studied back in the day in undergrad, I took very hard sciences thinking that medical schools wanted people who show interest in genetics, biochem, immunology, dissection. My harder course choices (than say human geography or music in film - these being easier in the sense of marking schemes alone like all MC tests, no papers, no labs, memorizing which song is popular in which film)..cost me a lower GPA than the 3.9 to 4.0 that current Canadian applicants have because they fish out every bird course on campus and schools encourage this in the name of diversity of applicants. Plenty of people I know would have no chance in the US simply for the way their course selections look - 1st years in 4th year, no labs etc. This is what makes it harder to get into Canada - just have to know from the start to play the game and pay tuition for those bird classes.

With all due respect, much of the content of this post just seems wrong. While there are some (perhaps many) student who look for the easiest courses and get a high GPA that way, there are some (perhaps many) who really do take intellectually stimulating courses that are appropriate to their level of study AND do well enough in them to get a high GPA and get into Canadian schools. Your perspective may be affected by the fact that ,as your post suggests, many of the people you know fall in the former category.

For many people, taking first year courses in 4th year wouldn't make a difference to admissions chances since those marks don't show up on you transcript at the time of application (assuming, like many Canadian applicants, you apply in 4th year). I would be surprised if many undergraduate programs actually allow students to graduate if they've overloaded on lower-level courses.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with "schools encourage this in the name of diversity of applicants" but beyond making sure you have the prerequisites and ensuring that your courses are at the right level, I doubt many adcoms really waste much time digging into each of your individual courses in search of "diversity".

 

[futureworlddoc]

I think what I meant was that schools don't really care what you study as long as you have a high GPA when you apply. Which seems unfair to people like me who might be off by a few points but took lots of labs / thesis etc, and someone else with no science direction or any direction but just taking random courses gets in. I've spoken with some people who help with admissions casually (I know them through friends) and someone said "I'd rather admit a kid who studied music than lab chemistry" "it shows they have a personality and undergrad courses don't affect your medical studies once you get in"

 

[bearintraining]

Wow so many misconceptions in this thread.

First off, the single most important reason why the average Canadian applicant applies 2.7 times to get accepted to med school is the intense competition. This is due to the fact that there are fewer med schools and no private institutes. This in turn means that the majority of applicants have one or two at most in state or in province schools. The out of state schools only offer a max of about 15% of their seats to those students. This means most schools only interview less than 100 students OOP/OOS. Most schools won't even review an OOS applicant with a GPA less than 3.7.

Second, Canada generally places less emphasis on the MCAT. One could make an argument that Canadian schools have similar education and the issue of standardization is less than in the U.S-- I don't know if this is true, but I suspect it is. Regardless, at most schools the MCAT is either a cut off, or only CARS/VR considered, or at most considered as part Of wholistic review. Therefore it's highly artificial to compare MCAT scores with that of an American school because there simply is not the same drive to score high and test repeatedly as in the US. However, this means GPA is King, and the averages at Canadian schools are Top 10 like.

Third, clinical experiences in Canada are much less common. This is probably the number one barrier for Canadian students applying to the United States. This is in part due to our legal and healthcare system, and very strong discouragement by provincial medical licensing authorities for non-medical student shadowing or even coming near patients.

Fourth, the university of Toronto is world renowned and is as close to elite as possible. I am willing to bet good money that residency directors would consider it in the same caliber as an U.S top ten. However, I don't think u of t has the same kind of finances that a private institute like Harvard, Stanford or Yale has. So I would place it more in comparison with top public institutes like UCSF.

 

[Almighty Saguaro]

No, really there are schools in Canada that garner the respect one might generally reserve for "top tier" schools here (McGill, Toronto..).

Thought the above might add to the discussion. @gyngyn is a US MD adcom (at a well-regarded US school, I believe)

 

[NotASerialKiller]

Wow so many misconceptions in this thread.

First off, the single most important reason why the average Canadian applicant applies 2.7 times to get accepted to med school is the intense competition. This is due to the fact that there are fewer med schools and no private institutes. This in turn means that the majority of applicants have one or two at most in state or in province schools. The out of state schools only offer a max of about 15% of their seats to those students. This means most schools only interview less than 100 students OOP/OOS. Most schools won't even review an OOS applicant with a GPA less than 3.7.

Second, Canada generally places less emphasis on the MCAT. One could make an argument that Canadian schools have similar education and the issue of standardization is less than in the U.S-- I don't know if this is true, but I suspect it is. Regardless, at most schools the MCAT is either a cut off, or only CARS/VR considered, or at most considered as part Of wholistic review. Therefore it's highly artificial to compare MCAT scores with that of an American school because there simply is not the same drive to score high and test repeatedly as in the US. However, this means GPA is King, and the averages at Canadian schools are Top 10 like.

Third, clinical experiences in Canada are much less common. This is probably the number one barrier for Canadian students applying to the United States. This is in part due to our legal and healthcare system, and very strong discouragement by provincial medical licensing authorities for non-medical student shadowing or even coming near patients.

Fourth, the university of Toronto is world renowned and is as close to elite as possible. I am willing to bet good money that residency directors would consider it in the same caliber as an U.S top ten. However, I don't think u of t has the same kind of finances that a private institute like Harvard, Stanford or Yale has. So I would place it more in comparison with top public institutes like UCSF.

I agree with almost all of this, except that UofT's medical program is not thought more highly of in Canada (although you might have been referring only to how US directors would view UofT in general, couldn't tell). I've never spoken to a Canadian med student/resident/staff who thought that it was any better than McGill, Ottawa, etc. It's a shame that the name might carry more weight in the US when the quality of education is no better. In Canada that's reflected in how no one really cares where you went to med school, because they know it doesn't make a big difference.

 

[Almighty Saguaro]

I agree with almost all of this, except that UofT's medical program is not thought more highly of in Canada (although you might have been referring only to how US directors would view UofT in general, couldn't tell). I've never spoken to a Canadian med student/resident/staff who thought that it was any better than McGill, Ottawa, etc. It's a shame that the name might carry more weight in the US when the quality of education is no better. In Canada that's reflected in how no one really cares where you went to med school, because they know it doesn't make a big difference.

Better not let the UofT students hear you saying that 😉.
I would agree that in Canada, where one goes to medical school seems to be of little importance after graduation. However, in my experiences with Ontario students (pre-med and med) it does seem like UofT is more highly regarded. Perhaps those outside Ontario see things a little differently.
With regards to your penultimate statement, I don't think name, prestige, etc necessarily relates to the quality of education (in the US or Canada). I would imagine that most LCME medical schools offer a quality of education that is adequate and similar across the board.

 

[bearintraining]

I agree with almost all of this, except that UofT's medical program is not thought more highly of in Canada (although you might have been referring only to how US directors would view UofT in general, couldn't tell). I've never spoken to a Canadian med student/resident/staff who thought that it was any better than McGill, Ottawa, etc. It's a shame that the name might carry more weight in the US when the quality of education is no better. In Canada that's reflected in how no one really cares where you went to med school, because they know it doesn't make a big difference.

You may very well be right. I do know Toronto had many scholarships available to med students, unlike other Canadian schools. Of course, it's a research powerhouse also.

 

[bdolan]

This has been discussed in other topics such as Utoronto vs Harvard. The short answer is that Toronto doesn't come close to schools like Harvard in terms of overall international reputation but is respected in specific academic circles.

 

[Almighty Saguaro]

This has been discussed in other topics such as Utoronto vs Harvard. The short answer is that Toronto doesn't come close to schools like Harvard in terms of overall international reputation but is respected in specific academic circles.

I think the question was "Is the University of Toronto considered an elite medical school?" as opposed to "Does UofT = Harvard?"
You're right in that the answer to the latter question is obvious and need not be discussed.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

Better not let the UofT students hear you saying that 😉.
I would agree that in Canada, where one goes to medical school seems to be of little importance after graduation. However, in my experiences with Ontario students (pre-med and med) it does seem like UofT is more highly regarded. Perhaps those outside Ontario see things a little differently.
With regards to your penultimate statement, I don't think name, prestige, etc necessarily relates to the quality of education (in the US or Canada). I would imagine that most LCME medical schools offer a quality of education that is adequate and similar across the board.

It depends who you're talking about. Prestige-hungry helicopter parents would definitely want their kids to go to McGill and UofT because they're looking for reasons to brag, and want to force "MY kid goes to HARVARD" type statements. I don't think anyone within medicine actually thinks they're objectively better though, and you're not at a disadvantage going for the top ortho program coming from a lesser known school. I've heard Ottawa students argue that their program is the strongest, McMaster students say that their entirely case-based system is the best etc., but if you get an acceptance to UofT and Calgary, it's not at all a given that you'd pick UofT.