Is the URM incentive only happens in the preliminary selection?

[ayjaystudent]

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That part where GPA and MCAT gets evaluated?

 

[Astra]

wut

 

[ayjaystudent]

wut

Not sure if my question was clear. Anyway, so according to LizzyM and this sub, being a URM has a greater probability of getting in. I was wondering if that advantage only happens in selecting which applicants will get Interview Invites. Then once those are sent out, I wonder if everyone starts off on a clean slate during selection process.

 

[efle]

Not sure if my question was clear. Anyway, so according to LizzyM and this sub, being a URM has a greater probability of getting in. I was wondering if that advantage only happens in selecting which applicants will get Interview Invites. Then once those are sent out, I wonder if everyone starts off on a clean slate during selection process.

No, everyone is not on even footing on and after interview day. It's the accepted and matriculated class composition that they are keeping balanced, not representation at interview.

 

[ayjaystudent]

No, everyone is not on even footing on and after interview day. It's the accepted and matriculated class composition that they are keeping balanced, not representation at interview.

Thanks! That's enlightening.

 

[Lucca]

Thanks! That's enlightening.

One of the adcoms on here also uses a useful analogy for med school admissions:

Think of admissions as a broad staircase that gets narrower as you go up and at the top is admission to medical school. Depending on your stats, ECs, accolades, and demographics you will start somewhere on this staircase. Some at the very bottom, some practically at the top already. The interview will shift the distribution on the staircase - some may move all the way up and others be knocked off from the top -- but people were never equal to begin with.

 

[LizzyM]

One of the adcoms on here also uses a useful analogy for med school admissions:

Think of admissions as a broad staircase that gets narrower as you go up and at the top is admission to medical school. Depending on your stats, ECs, accolades, and demographics you will start somewhere on this staircase. Some at the very bottom, some practically at the top already. The interview will shift the distribution on the staircase - some may move all the way up and others be knocked off from the top -- but people were never equal to begin with.

The staircase does not get narrower toward the top. When all assessment is complete, those at the top of the staircase are chosen first and the committee makes its way down until the class is full (or 3 times full depending on if they are making lots of offers hoping that only 1/3 of the offers are accepted).

Not sure if my question was clear. Anyway, so according to LizzyM and this sub, being a URM has a greater probability of getting in. I was wondering if that advantage only happens in selecting which applicants will get Interview Invites. Then once those are sent out, I wonder if everyone starts off on a clean slate during selection process.

The likelihood of being admitted is about the same for Hispanic as for White and Asian applicants. Blacks have a lower likelihood of being admitted overall but a higher likelihood at any given GPA/MCAT combination.

Hispanics 44.3% admitted
Black 36.2% admitted
Hispanic, Black and Native American combined: 41%
Asian 44.2% admitted
White 45.0% admitted

Schools value a diverse student body. They are also judge when it comes to being accredited on making efforts to recruit a diverse student body. If you consider a floor that represents the minimum GPA and MCAT for success in medical school there are far, far more applicants who are "qualified" than there are seats. Schools choose from among the qualified applicants trying to get a mix of students with different life experiences and choosing among those who are highly academically qualified but in some cases making a trade off between high past academic achievement and life experience.

 

[Lucca]

The staircase does not get narrower toward the top. When all assessment is complete, those at the top of the staircase are chosen first and the committee makes its way down until the class is full (or 3 times full depending on if they are making lots of offers hoping that only 1/3 of the offers are accepted).

The likelihood of being admitted is about the same for Hispanic as for White and Asian applicants. Blacks have a lower likelihood of being admitted overall but a higher likelihood at any given GPA/MCAT combination.

Hispanics 44.3% admitted
Black 36.2% admitted
Hispanic, Black and Native American combined: 41%
Asian 44.2% admitted
White 45.0% admitted

Schools value a diverse student body. They are also judge when it comes to being accredited on making efforts to recruit a diverse student body. If you consider a floor that represents the minimum GPA and MCAT for success in medical school there are far, far more applicants who are "qualified" than there are seats. Schools choose from among the qualified applicants trying to get a mix of students with different life experiences and choosing among those who are highly academically qualified but in some cases making a trade off between high past academic achievement and life experience.

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[vm26]

nice staircase analogy...URM/ethnic status/gender will continue to play a role (positive and negative) into residency/fellowship selection as well as one's career as an attending

 

[Astra]

RM/ethnic status/gender will continue to play a role (positive and negative) into residency/fellowship selection as well as one's career as an attending

that's depressing to hear

 

[Chromium Surfer]

nice staircase analogy...URM/ethnic status/gender will continue to play a role (positive and negative) into residency/fellowship selection as well as one's career as an attending

Really that's interesting could you clarify? I heard that for residency selection this doesn't really matter anymore.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Really that's interesting could you clarify? I heard that for residency selection this doesn't really matter anymore.

Nope, diversity will always be a goal no matter what stage really

 

[Chromium Surfer]

Nope, diversity will always be a goal no matter what stage really

Interesting, so just to clarify you mean that residency programs still consider diversity and life experiences and might select for this over an academic superstar assuming the applicant that is diverse is minimally qualified?

 

[sliceofbread136]

Interesting, so just to clarify you mean that residency programs still consider diversity and life experiences and might select for this over an academic superstar assuming the applicant that is diverse is minimally qualified?

No probably not. Step scores and quartile are the most important parts which set what tier you can apply to. Diversity and whatever give you an edge at said tier

 

[SydSing]

Many AA medical students I have networked with have spoken about avoiding programs (often top ones) that don't have a history of diversity anyway. It's not like (and I can't speak for everyone) we like feeling isolated or being the token minority. It sucks even more when you've earned the spot but still get a side-eye because people make assumptions about how you got somewhere.

That's another thing. While I am sure many of you don't really care about the race/gender/etc. of your classmates, there is a stigma we will deal with and negativity that comes along with our very existence. Hell, my MS3 friend was recently told she needed to overcompensate when it came to appearing confident during rotations by her mentor because her male classmates would be trusted more as women are often automatically deemed as weak (comparatively) and less trustworthy.

This final statement is just my opinion ... but I have always felt that any benefit given to me due to race or my gender is very much canceled out and overshadowed by the negatives that those same categories have elicited in my life (professionally and otherwise).

 

[Chromium Surfer]

No probably not. Step scores and quartile are the most important parts which set what tier you can apply to. Diversity and whatever give you an edge at said tier

Thank you for the clarification! I have heard that a student from a "top" school can go further with an average Step 1 say mid 230s than a student with a higher step 1 from a lower ranked school. Is this correct and would it be accurate to say that in a general sense school rank can potentially influence the tier you can apply too?

Many AA medical students I have networked with have spoken about avoiding programs (often top ones) that don't have a history of diversity anyway. It's not like (and I can't speak for everyone) we like feeling isolated or being the token minority. It sucks even more when you've earned the spot but still get a side-eye because people make assumptions about how you got somewhere.

That's another thing. While I am sure many of you don't really care about the race/gender/etc. of your classmates, there is a stigma we will deal with and negativity that comes along with our very existence. Hell, my MS3 friend was recently told she needed to overcompensate when it came to appearing confident during rotations by her mentor because her male classmates would be trusted over her any day as women are often automatically deemed as weak and less trustworthy.

That is unfortunate! It seems that many "top" med schools heavily recruit URM's but its interesting to hear that doesnt carry over for residency. However I can see the reasoning why to a certain extent.

 

[SydSing]

Thank you for the clarification! I have heard that a student from a "top" school can go further with an average Step 1 say mid 230s than a student with a higher step 1 from a lower ranked school. Is this correct and would it be accurate to say that in a general sense school rank can potentially influence the tier you can apply too?



That is unfortunate! It seems that many "top" med schools heavily recruit URM's but its interesting to hear that doesnt carry over for residency. However I can see the reasoning why to a certain extent.

I am sure the recruitment is still there... as a matter of fact, I doubt it isn't. But I can say that I personally looked at the break down of every school's student body and avoided schools where I would be 1 of 3 for example. I will likely check out the numbers for residency. Of course that is presumptuous of me to assume I will have a negative experience with those number but it is what it is.

 

[vm26]

my point was that these issues (race/gender) always play a role, I didn't necessarily mean the same way as they do during med school application (more stat/numbers oriented)...people have personal bias, for example, my former PD would not rank DO applicants high for the match....other qualities such as a person's physical attractiveness, height/weight, religion etc also play a role in how high we are perceived to be on the staircase

 

[Goro]

Why? There are positive medical outcomes riding on this.

that's depressing to hear

Med schools can serve as feeder programs in the same way as UG schools serve as feeders for med schools. Their graduates are a known quantity. So yes.

Thank you for the clarification! I have heard that a student from a "top" school can go further with an average Step 1 say mid 230s than a student with a higher step 1 from a lower ranked school. Is this correct and would it be accurate to say that in a general sense school rank can potentially influence the tier you can apply too?

 

[Astra]

Why? There are positive medical outcomes riding on this.

Its mainly the fear of working super hard building a residency application and then being overshadowed by someone else by factors outside of my control.

Also, what do you mean by positive medical outcomes? Are you referring to patients doing better under physicians who are similar to them?

 

[Goro]

Yup.

Also, what do you mean by positive medical outcomes? Are you referring to patients doing better under physicians who are similar to them?

 

[SydSing]

Its mainly the fear of working super hard building a residency application and then being overshadowed by someone else by factors outside of my control.

Also, what do you mean by positive medical outcomes? Are you referring to patients doing better under physicians who are similar to them?

Hey, it's a valid concern but perhaps one that you are focusing on more than you should?

If anything, you are likely to simply be overshadowed by controllable factors and by your fellow non-URMs.

I'm both excited about and scared of the crazy talent I'm going to encounter next year.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[LizzyM]

Its mainly the fear of working super hard building a residency application and then being overshadowed by someone else by factors outside of my control.

Also, what do you mean by positive medical outcomes? Are you referring to patients doing better under physicians who are similar to them?

Unless you are both tall and good looking, you may be overshadowed by someone else by factors outside of your control.

Work your hardest, do your best, and accept the things you cannot change.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Thank you for the clarification! I have heard that a student from a "top" school can go further with an average Step 1 say mid 230s than a student with a higher step 1 from a lower ranked school. Is this correct and would it be accurate to say that in a general sense school rank can potentially influence the tier you can apply too

That's harder to say, depends on the specialty, the region and the specific case. In peds I can say coming from a top school gave you a really nice boost at the top programs and many programs had a regional bias on top of that. However there are a ton of people from low rank school at the top programs, although less so at the top 5ish

 

[doctorbob23]

It can happen at all stages of the application. They only interview candidates they would accept

 

[takeurmeds02]

Its mainly the fear of working super hard building a residency application and then being overshadowed by someone else by factors outside of my control.

Also, what do you mean by positive medical outcomes? Are you referring to patients doing better under physicians who are similar to them?

I understand where you're coming from but that situation definitely beats having to combat a stigma for the large part of your career, held not only by your colleagues but also your patients.

As far as positive outcomes, it means having a workforce with diverse backgrounds that can weigh in a differing opinion that may put treatment and maintenance into better context as well as build patient rapport. This improves health equity. Sure you could prescribe the same treatment to everyone but to be effective, you also have to consider ethnic beliefs and disproportionate socioeconomic barriers. So yes, in some ways, sure, "physicians who are similar to them".

 

[sliceofbread136]

Its mainly the fear of working super hard building a residency application and then being overshadowed by someone else by factors outside of my control.

Also, what do you mean by positive medical outcomes? Are you referring to patients doing better under physicians who are similar to them?

Hey man it might be time to grow a pair

 

[WedgeDawg]

Program directors can do literally whatever they want. Now is not the time to be worrying about how things that are totally out of your control may or may not affect how you're ranked for residency.

 

[partypantss]

Its mainly the fear of working super hard building a residency application and then being overshadowed by someone else by factors outside of my control.

Also, what do you mean by positive medical outcomes? Are you referring to patients doing better under physicians who are similar to them?

That seems like a pretty unconstructive fear to have since there are many other factors about you that are out of your control that will inevitably effect your chances. If you work hard and do well enough you can get whatever spot you want URM or ORM...

And yes, it's my understanding that the reason schools have a favoritism towards URMs is because the diverse patient population of the US NEEDS more minority physicians. Some black patients are probably more likely to trust and form a better relationship with black physicians, etc.

So, with all of the bias that is in the world EVERYWHERE, at least in this case it's a conscious effort with the goal of improving healthcare.

 

[Astra]

Hey, it's a valid concern but perhaps one that you are focusing on more than you should?

If anything, you are likely to simply be overshadowed by controllable factors and by your fellow non-URMs.

I'm both excited about and scared of the crazy talent I'm going to encounter next year.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Unless you are both tall and good looking, you may be overshadowed by someone else by factors outside of your control.

Work your hardest, do your best, and accept the things you cannot change.

I understand where you're coming from but that situation definitely beats having to combat a stigma for the large part of your career, held not only by your colleagues but also your patients.

As far as positive outcomes, it means having a workforce with diverse backgrounds that can weigh in a differing opinion that may put treatment and maintenance into better context as well as build patient rapport. This improves health equity. Sure you could prescribe the same treatment to everyone but to be effective, you also have to consider ethnic beliefs and disproportionate socioeconomic barriers. So yes, in some ways, sure, "physicians who are similar to them".

That seems like a pretty unconstructive fear to have since there are many other factors about you that are out of your control that will inevitably effect your chances. If you work hard and do well enough you can get whatever spot you want URM or ORM...

And yes, it's my understanding that the reason schools have a favoritism towards URMs is because the diverse patient population of the US NEEDS more minority physicians. Some black patients are probably more likely to trust and form a better relationship with black physicians, etc.

So, with all of the bias that is in the world EVERYWHERE, at least in this case it's a conscious effort with the goal of improving healthcare.

Hey man it might be time to grow a pair

Guys, my concern wasn't due to the URM/ORM aspect alone nor was my goal to turn this into a ORM vs URM debate . I was referring to the fact that URM/ethnic status/gender all come into play during residency. It was my understanding that people who had the best step scores, EC's, clinical scores , and interviews were selected (it seems this was wrong)and of course I plan on working my hardest in med school. Gonna do my best and see what happens.

The concern stemmed from that we don't have residency data like the amcas/gpa/race/gender/mcat tables for med schools

 

[terra330]

My understanding is that if it is a factor for residency, it's not nearly to the same extent as it is for medical school selection.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Guys, my concern wasn't due to the URM/ORM aspect alone nor was my goal to turn this into a ORM vs URM debate . I was referring to the fact that URM/ethnic status/gender all come into play during residency. It was my understanding that people who had the best step scores, EC's, clinical scores , and interviews were selected (it seems this was wrong)and of course I plan on working my hardest in med school. Gonna do my best and see what happens.

The concern stemmed from that we don't have residency data like the amcas/gpa/race/gender/mcat tables for med schools

That's because, again, residency programs, even within the same "tier" within the same specialty have TOTALLY different cultures and things they're looking for. Fit, above a very baseline level of academic achievement, becomes far and away the most important thing. A candidate with a 5000 Step 1 score and 800 NEJM publications would meet the academic criteria for pediatric dermatoneuropathic reconstructive surgery at both UCSF and MGH, but might be a great fit for the culture at UCSF while not fitting in at all at MGH. Or maybe their husband has a great job opportunity in Los Angeles so they really are looking at the LA programs and trying to see which one is best fit for them there.

You can't look at residency the same way you look at med school (similar how you can't look at med school the same way you look at undergrad). It's not something you should spend your effort trying to understand at this point in your career.