Is there a negative stigma associated with Dermatology

[ilim01]

Hello future colleages,

I am in the process of applying to Med schools, in the last year of pre Med.

From the Med students and doctor I've talked to I get a feeling there is a negative stigma associated to people who want to do dermatology, as someone who does not care about helping people but is after the big bucks. For example this one doctor I talked asked me what specialty interests me. When I said dermatology, he responded "Oh so you are after the big bucks and the lifestyle!!"

I was offended, i am genuinely interested in treating patients and helping people; but at the same time have many hobbies and interests outside of medicine that a derm life would allow me to continue, as well as spend a good amount of time with my family that I plan to have.

What do you guys think, Are dermotologists not interested in helping people and are just after the good lifestyle and the big bucks ?

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[Gerg]

The physician was prolly just making small talk.

Derm is really competitive to get into, because:

it pays well
you get to sleep at night
you get to see your family.

If there's any negative stigma, it probably stems from jealousy, but most who've made it this far have left that behind when it comes to dealing with our colleagues.

Med Schools only take the best. Derm is really competitive, so it only takes the best of the best.

As a person in the application process, you don't really know what the future has in store for you. Others could try to describe it, but you've got to live it. I don't know what the clinical years or residency has in store for me, but I'm excited. You'll problably change your mind as you go through your medical education too.

Back to the question tho: there's nothing wrong with being a derm, chill out. The physician was just letting you know he was listening.

 

[Samoa]

Personally, I think dermatopathology is fascinating--second only to neurosurgery in my book. I've also seen firsthand how devastating acne can be to someone's self-esteem. I would love for that to be my backup plan, if neurosurgery turns out not to be a viable option for me. Unfortunately, it's far too competitive to be anybody's backup plan, and if I'm unable to land a spot in neurosurg for academic reasons, I certainly would have at least as much difficulty matching in derm.

But it's true that other specialties talk trash about derm because of the easy hours, high pay and lack of intellectual challenge. And you don't really hear people in med school talk about their plans to go into derm, probably for exactly that reason. Some people instantly make assumptions, and not very flattering ones, about your personal priorities. Gerg is probably right that it's often just good-natured rivalry, though. But you do have to be prepared for that kind of teasing.

 

[ilim01]

Thanks for the response Gerg,

There's another issue that I would love to hear Med studetns responses. In my upcoming interviews do you think it would be wise to tell the interviewer that I am after derm, or should I just say I'm not sure?

 

[Gerg]

#1 thing going into an interview. Be honest. If they ask you what you want to go into, and you're leaning derm, tell 'em.

That's the only advice I can give. Honesty. Or, if after reading this, you're not sure if you want to go into it. Tell them that. Honesty.

If you've gotten an interview, the adcom knows that you've got the intellectual ability to make it. Now they're after your personality. With the interviewing experience that some of these people have, they can see right though you (think Human Lie detector, a la Meet the Parents).

Honesty.

Oh yeah, just a general note. (and something I've had to come to grips with) You have to be honest with yourself before you can be honest with others.

 

[Samoa]

It's always better to be honest. Although I generally just said my interest was in neuroscience rather than specifically in neurosurgery. I'd actually been told point-blank by an interviewer that he would not recommend me for admission if I said I was interested in surgery, and the truth is that I actually am interested in the whole spectrum of neurologic and psychiatric disease. I just don't think I want to deal with those patients. And it's always appropriate to acknowledge that your interests may change, so that wouldn't be at all dishonest.

 

[kchan99]

Writing from the point of view of myself as a patient, I am turned off by dermatologists who plaster waiting rooms with information on cosmetic treatments, such as laser, when I want to be seen for a rash or wart. In my mind, I associate cosmetic dermatology with beauty spas.

I am aware that dermatologists who perform a lot of cosmetic procedures may be interested in the well-being of the patient.

In Switzerland, the field of dermatology is called "dermatology and venereology." I am certain that I would not want to be a dermatologist in Switzerland regardless of income because I would not want to be introducing myself as a STD doctor in social settings.

 

[ParisHilton]

From the Med students and doctor I've talked to I get a feeling there is a negative stigma associated to people who want to do dermatology, as someone who does not care about helping people but is after the big bucks. For example this one doctor I talked asked me what specialty interests me. When I said dermatology, he responded "Oh so you are after the big bucks and the lifestyle!!"

There are several reasons why some might react in this fashion. First of all, many are indeed jealous since they feel they're doing more "important" work than a dermatologist but are being paid less and working much harder. Secondly, society needs ob/gyns, neurosurgeons etc - not to say we don't need dermatologists, but there are enough med students who initially wanted to go into something demanding but eventually get fed up and apply to lifestyle specialties. Rarely will you see someone who wanted to go into derm because of their anticipated hobbies and family time, but then later decide to apply to ob/gyn. Who will be tomorrow's neurosurgeons if everyone wants to spend time with their family and on the golf course? Thirdly, you have to demonstrate that you want to become a dermatologist because you actually like field itself, not because of the lifestyle or compensation. It's like trying out for the kicker/punter position in football not because you enjoy it, but because they hardly get hurt and still get a varsity jacket and their picture in the team photo. Naturally, someone might say if you don't want to get hurt in the first place, go play soccer or badminton. But chicks don't go for badminton players, right? 😉

#1 thing going into an interview. Be honest. If they ask you what you want to go into, and you're leaning derm, tell 'em.

This is the last thing I would do! Just say you want to go into whatever you have the most volunteer experience in (e.g. ER), but since you think you'll love everything else, say you want to keep your options open for now etc.

You're an adult now - you're not in Romper Room anymore. You should know when to tell white lies and when not to (e.g. "I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky" or "There are WMD in Iraq." 🙄 ). If you mention anything about lifestyle or compensation in an interview or personal statement you may as well kiss that school goodbye. Any normal person would like good hours and money so there's no need to bring them up. If someone does mention that you're going into derm for the money and lifestyle, just pretend that you think the hours and money are a bonus but you would never go into derm if you didn't like it in the first place. That's what everyone else does.

 

[Mumpu]

Basically, every medical specialty always rags on every other medical specialty. There are stigmas associated with psych, path, FP, IM, surgery, ortho, cardiothoracic, EM, rays, gas, peds, etc. Your duty is to avoid becoming a stereotype and be a good physician.

 

[Stinger86]

If you're planning on telling your interviewers that you're interested in a particular field, it's always nice to have some work experience to back it up. No one is going to think negatively about an applicant who's gung-ho on derm but has also shadowed a dermatologist or two.

 

[fpr85]

Why not just tell him something along the lines of "If I do get accepted I still have a long road ahead of me and am open to anything that comes my way".

 

[skidmark]

negative stigma? is there such a thing as a positive stigma?

 

[Fermata]

I think that if you start med school with your heart set on dermatology then you are probably setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

[HiddenTruth]

negative stigma? is there such a thing as a positive stigma?

drop the M bomb at an undergrad pre-med library floor

(FYI: M= med student, relaX!)

 

[Fermata]

drop the M bomb at an undergrad pre-med library floor

(FYI: M= med student, relaX!)

Nothing like attracting the gold diggers... 🙄

 

[Wednesday]

If you have a reason for being interested in derm other than "I have a lot of hobbies and want to see my family" I would say go ahead and tell them you want to be a dermatologist. From what you wrote in the original post, it sounds like the doctor's reaction was accurate and no, you probably don't want your interviewer thinking that you are interested in an "easy" life. You're right, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be a whole person, but the assumption is that all types of doctors should be able to have a life outside work. There is a committment involved in being a physician which is why most schools want to see that their applicants have fully explored this prior to admission (with shadowing, volunteering, etc). If you're going in saying "I recognize the committment and am trying to avoid it as much as possible by being interested in this specific specialty, which is known to be easy" I don't think it will come across well. They ask you "which specialty" too see what you're interests are, if anything in medicine makes you particularly excited. I would think that admitting that you're interested in a specialty because of perceived lifestyle benefits before you are even in med school would be a strike against you. (BTW, I'm not faulting you for thinking about this, most people do as evidenced by how hard it is to get into these fields. Derm is interesting but it's not THAT interesting to THAT many people). Good luck in your interviews!

 

[doc05]

Telling your interviewer that you're interested in derm is probably the worst mistake you could possibly make. Derm is all about lifestyle (especially for you, based on the original post), and physicians in other specialties will hold this against you. Interviewers are generally in IM, but you'll also meet peds, surgery, obgyn, and psych. Hardworking internists will be particularly offended by the derm reference.

What exactly is the stigma? That dermatologists have sold out...after all, the smartest, hardest working students end up going into the least stressful specialty, with minimal physical or intellectual challenge. Wouldn't you be offended??

 

[fielight]

like Mumpu noted, there's a stigma attached to every specialty. my advice is to not say anything about dermatology. i personally have not noticed too much negativity toward dermatology from physicians and med schools (certainly no one would look down at you if you have a sob story about how you or a family member suffered once from a horrible case of erythema multiforme, was mistaken for chicken pox and left untreated, and how that traumatized you for life... and that's why you want to pursue dermatology), but you should be mindful that schools will think of you as naive (along with just being "in it for the money"). pre-meds are so idealistic; once you go to med school, you won't believe just how easily your mind can change or how quickly your academic performance puts you far away from a derm residency. basically, unless you have a really good reason (and it's pretty hard to actually have a good reason, because at this time in your life, you're unlikely to have had too much exposure to derm, understand the rigors of medical education, competition in residency match, rotations through various specialties, and truly "meaningful" patient contact work -- all of which must be factored into a decision toward a specialty) to want to pursue dermatology, you probably should just tell the interviewer that you're open to anything. i think that's the most "mature" response anyway, because most people don't end up doing what they thought they wanted to do after going through med school.

 

[azzarah]

To be honest with you I have met more than a few dermatologists who were really self-centered and egotistical---at least that was my impression. When I first came to med school I was really interested in derm, but now--I don't know--these people have made a really bad impression on me. 😱

 

[fourthyearmed]

the smartest, hardest working students end up going into the least stressful specialty, with minimal physical or intellectual challenge.

This is what has always bothered me about Derm. The smartest people are always going into Derm which often doesn't require the diagnostic skills that Internal Medicine or Surgery does.

 

[Discobolus]

It is probably a good thing that you have decided to want to go into dermatology this early. You will be motivated to study hard from the very beginning and make the necessary grades. Most likely though your interests will change, but having the good grades will still be there.

I'm not so sure that there is a "brain drain" into dermatology. I don't think those going into dermatology are any more intelligent than those going into other specialties, they just had a goal in mind and did what it took to get there. We know the type, typically very obsessive-compulsive females who study 8 hours a day. They are usually very type A who go from being slender as M1's to plain skinny as M2's because they seldom eat or sleep. I've found that often the more intellectual types don't put as much emphasis on grades. Actually the people with the most natural intelligence tend to be slackers. Anyway, these are just generalizations based on my observations and there are certainly many exceptions.

I've said before that dermatology is the specialty for people that get to their 3rd year of medical school and realize they don't want to be doctors. This has come from talking to 3rd years who initially had no interest in derm but when asked what they wanted to do said derm, followed by how much they were hating their rotations.

 

[Discobolus]

I still think the people that enjoy the intellectual stimulation are still going to go into Internal Medicine and General Surgery. They may not have the highest GPA's though because they didn't want to jump through the mindless "memorize and regurgitate" hoops that it takes to do well on course exams.

 

[ilim01]

Thank you all for your responses,

you have shed much light on how the rest of the medical community views dermatology.

 

[omarsaleh66]

Dermatologists can do alot of good, its not all about prescribing accutane. I think academic dermatology can be pretty challenging and we need some smart people in derm to cure all these diseases that people have to deal with their whole lives. Skin diseases are no joke man, imagine those people taht have psoriasis, and other disease that can make them outcasts where they have to be on pretty hardcore drugs and antidepressants cuz they hate how they look. There's no good cure for it yet, and we need some bad ass dermatologist out there to figure this stuff out.

My point is that a lot of good things can be done in this field and its not all about the lifestyle. More power to dermatologists that do this type of work

 

[gschl1234]

Maybe there is a bit of a stigma. I was shadowing this doctor once who had a PA working for her. Her PA kept pumping me for information about applying to med school while the doc wasn't there. 10 years ago she took the MCAT and did poorly so she never bothered applying to med school but did PA school instead. Now she wants to go back to school to get an MD and become a dermatologist or opthomologist. As soon as the doc came back in (FP), they started talking about her plans and it was all: "I want to go into Family Practice or Peds and work in a community clinic just like you do. Maybe I'll even come back if you'll take me." No mention of derm or opthomology. I didn't have a negative opinion of people wanting to go into derm before but because of this PA's sneaky approach, I'm starting to wonder about people who base their decision entirely on lifestyle. This PA wants to do this because her husband doesn't want to work after she finishes residency. <shrug>

 

[fourthyearmed]

Actually the people with the most natural intelligence tend to be slackers.

I totally agree with this. Some of the smartest people in my class are the biggest slackers. For this reason I think placing too much emphasis on MCAT is a bad thing.

 

[Blake]

I totally agree with this. Some of the smartest people in my class are the biggest slackers. For this reason I think placing too much emphasis on MCAT is a bad thing.

That's hard for me to understand. How can you slack, and still manage to be in the top 5-10 % of your class when there's so much material to learn everyday ? I doubt they were born with the ultimate knowledge on anatomy, you know. This is med school, not engineering school, where natural ability can allow slackers to still be part of the best.

Personally, I have no interests whatsoever in dermatology, even if I end up the best student in my class. In fact, I'm pretty confident I'll end up in a surgery program.

 

[ParisHilton]

That's hard for me to understand. How can you slack, and still manage to be in the top 5-10 % of your class when there's so much material to learn everyday ? I doubt they were born with the ultimate knowledge on anatomy, you know. This is med school, not engineering school, where natural ability can allow slackers to still be part of the best.

Personally, I have no interests whatsoever in dermatology, even if I end up the best student in my class. In fact, I'm pretty confident I'll end up in a surgery program.

I wouldn't call them "slackers" per se - they're just hyper-efficient. They get more done in 2 or 3 hours than a normal person would studying all day. How? Don't ask me! I have no idea. My guess is that they know exactly what to focus on. If I ever had to take a class over again, it's amazing how much I would eliminate from my studying. Since you're just an M1, you'll find out soon enough. There is a big difference between studying feverishly compared to studying effectively. Unless you?ve done your surgery rotation, it?s almost impossible to tell if you want to do it for the rest of your life. After being sleep deprived for 3 months, you may wonder if you want to do it for another 5 years. After your 3rd year when people start to apply to residency, many wonder what the easiest specialty is - hence dermatology?s popularity.

 

[Stinger86]

That's hard for me to understand. How can you slack, and still manage to be in the top 5-10 % of your class when there's so much material to learn everyday ? I doubt they were born with the ultimate knowledge on anatomy, you know. This is med school, not engineering school, where natural ability can allow slackers to still be part of the best.

What's hard to understand? A person's ability to slack off and still make great grades is a testament to their intelligence and their ability to learn quickly and with little rote memorization. Whether you believe it or not, there are people who can attend a lecture once, with no prior reading on the subject, and understand the info well enough to kill exams without any additional studying.

 

[Stinger86]

If a person wants into dermatology nowadays, they're going to have to really work for it. I personally think that if you work to the level needed to get one of the rare derm residency positions, then good for you. We shouldn't give a crap whether you went into the field for money, easy hours, or an incredible fetish for topical steroids. Who cares?

 

[Bad Mojo]

I know that I'm not too far into medschool, but it doesn't seem like anybody really cares too much about motives anymore. As a premed (especially during interviews), everybody felt like they had to prove they had some divine justification or something to become a doctor. Sure, we repeat the stereotypes about surgeons and dermatologists, but all the reasons that once were 'bad' to be a doctor (money, prestige, etc) don't seem that 'bad' anymore.

 

[Philo Beddo]

I've never heard anyone complain about the bling they make as a dermatologist.

As a dermatologist, you can always buy respect with the pile of money you were intending to use as:

1. hamster cage lining.
2. toilet paper.
3. firewood
4. a down payment on your 2nd carribean island

 

[Blake]

What's hard to understand? A person's ability to slack off and still make great grades is a testament to their intelligence and their ability to learn quickly and with little rote memorization. Whether you believe it or not, there are people who can attend a lecture once, with no prior reading on the subject, and understand the info well enough to kill exams without any additional studying.

Of course that's possible, but I still haven't met one guy who only reads his notes once and who manages to kill the exams. Considering we have 1 exam like every 6-7 weeks, and the ridiculous amount of material we have to learn, I still haven't seen someone with that kind of natural ability. I'm not doubting their existence, but I doubt there are that many of them... And I somehow don't think we're all stupid at my school 🙄

 

[SaltySqueegee]

LOL, this is a good thread.

I was watching Seinfeld the other night. Jerry was dating a dermatologist that had a 'God' complex. As a retort, Jerry calls her a Pimple-Popping MD, and not a real doctor. She comes back with, Skin Cancer! Jerry slaps his forhead, and says "Damn, didn't think about the skin Cancer!"

It was funny to watch. Kinda need to see and not just read it.

Continue on... 👍

 

[EUROdocMOM]

I like derm and plan to go into it because I like hands on stuff (biopsies, Mohs, cryosurgery, etc) and I like path. I also think Derms can make a big difference in quality of life.
My classmates and even friends laugh at me already, "how's the pimple-popper doin'"... you know who you are!
I am sure there are derms who are in it for the $, but I really love medicine and have a feeling I will be defending my position for a long time.

I start a rotation in Ortho next week, and am struggling with the answer I will give when he asks what I am planning to go into.
Do I tell an orthopod that I like DERM???
I'm thinking, no.

 

[azcomdiddy]

Other docs look down on dermatologists because they are jealous that they have such great work hours and they earn a lot of money. The difference between dermatologists and radiologists is that derm residency is relaxed too. That's why everyone wants to do derm.

 

[azcomdiddy]

Of course that's possible, but I still haven't met one guy who only reads his notes once and who manages to kill the exams. Considering we have 1 exam like every 6-7 weeks, and the ridiculous amount of material we have to learn, I still haven't seen someone with that kind of natural ability. I'm not doubting their existence, but I doubt there are that many of them... And I somehow don't think we're all stupid at my school 🙄

It's not possible. This is a myth that gunners stir. They study their ass off and then downplay how much they studied. Happens all the time. Some of them lie because they want to appear smarter than they are. Others lie because they don't want to be ostracized for being hard workers.or "nerds" so they try to appear as normal as possible; they will say they studied as much as the next person. Truth is, they study like mad behind closed doors.

 

[lattimer13]

It's not possible.

never say never. i know i'm not one of these, but it is possible that they do exist.

 

[HiddenTruth]

Other docs look down on dermatologists because they are jealous that they have such great work hours and they earn a lot of money. The difference between dermatologists and radiologists is that derm residency is relaxed too. That's why everyone wants to do derm.

well radio's make more $$$ than derm's do in private practice.

 

[HiddenTruth]

derm's make more money RELATIVELY--to the amt of hours they put in. It's not like they're makin serious cash compared to other docs (vs. time, yes, but overall, no). I think derm's don't rake in more than 250K, correct me if i am wrong. There are plenty of highly specialized surgeons who are rakin' in much more than that. I'd like to see hear some comments from people who disagree.

 

[Discobolus]

That's hard for me to understand. How can you slack, and still manage to be in the top 5-10 % of your class when there's so much material to learn everyday ? I doubt they were born with the ultimate knowledge on anatomy, you know. This is med school, not engineering school, where natural ability can allow slackers to still be part of the best.

Personally, I have no interests whatsoever in dermatology, even if I end up the best student in my class. In fact, I'm pretty confident I'll end up in a surgery program.

You are confusing intelligence with doing well on exams, they are not the same thing. Having said that it really is kind of a moot point because having a high IQ is going to do you no good as a doctor if you haven't memorized the data you need to work with. I guess you could kind of compare it to learning a few basic equations and solving physics problems. Medicine is kind of like that but the "few basic equations" that you have to memorize is a LOT of information. Once you get to the problem solving time in your medical education having a high IQ will probably help, but only if you've memorized your "equations" (M1 and M2).

I'm kind of a slacker myself and it's really brought about a mixed bag of medical school results. I can score in the top 3% of my class on what many considered the most difficult shelf exam (physiology) and then follow it up the next year with being in the bottom 10% on genetics and microbiology exams. I probably put in the same about of time studying for both!

Anyway, I have a micro exam in an hour and need to stop being such a slacker and get off here!

 

[azcomdiddy]

well radio's make more $$$ than derm's do in private practice.

yeah...and....what's your point? Did I say they earned more than radiologists?

A lot of docs earn more than dermatologists including cardiologists, anesthesiologists, surgeons (pick one), GI docs, and radiologists.

That wasn't the point. The point is a dermatologists can work 30-40 hours a week and still earn 250-300K while a radiologist has to work 40-55 hours per week and take call to earn than same amount. The lifestyle post residency and lifestyle during residency of a dermatologist is comfortable. That is the biggest draw of dermatology is the lifestyle. They never take call and their residency is easy. Radiologists earn a lot of money but they still take signficant call and their residency isn't as easy as a derm residency.

The prestige and the lifestyle is what draws people to derm not the money per say.

 

[rgporter]

From the Med students and doctor I've talked to I get a feeling there is a negative stigma associated to people who want to do dermatology, as someone who does not care about helping people but is after the big bucks. For example this one doctor I talked asked me what specialty interests me. When I said dermatology, he responded "Oh so you are after the big bucks and the lifestyle!!"

I was offended, i am genuinely interested in treating patients and helping people...What do you guys think, Are dermotologists not interested in helping people and are just after the good lifestyle and the big bucks ?

Pimple popper M.D. 😀

 

[azcomdiddy]

You are confusing intelligence with doing well on exams, they are not the same thing. Having said that it really is kind of a moot point because having a high IQ is going to do you no good as a doctor if you haven't memorized the data you need to work with. I guess you could kind of compare it to learning a few basic equations and solving physics problems. Medicine is kind of like that but the "few basic equations" that you have to memorize is a LOT of information. Once you get to the problem solving time in your medical education having a high IQ will probably help, but only if you've memorized your "equations" (M1 and M2).

I'm kind of a slacker myself and it's really brought about a mixed bag of medical school results. I can score in the top 3% of my class on what many considered the most difficult shelf exam (physiology) and then follow it up the next year with being in the bottom 10% on genetics and microbiology exams. I probably put in the same about of time studying for both!

Anyway, I have a micro exam in an hour and need to stop being such a slacker and get off here!

I'm sorry, i agree with the other guy. There is just too much material in medical school for one to be a slacker and still be in the top 5% of his class. I don't believe anyone who says they slacked and got into the top 5%. That is just b.s. and a petty pre-med game. Either you are lying or you are unaware of how much you really study (more likely). I have seen this before in supposed "slackers" who finish in the top 5%. Granted, these guys don't study like a traditional student. But what I have noticed is that they study throughout the day in bits and pieces and they don't waste time watching television. They are either studying or hanging out with their friends/partying. But the reality is that if you combine the amount they study with the next guy, it is the same if not more. It just doesn't look like they study much because they don't go to the library and isolate themselves like the typical medical student

 

[ParisHilton]

I'm sorry, i agree with the other guy. There is just too much material in medical school for one to be a slacker and still be in the top 5% of his class. I don't believe anyone who says they slacked and got into the top 5%. That is just b.s. and a petty pre-med game. Either you are lying or you are unaware of how much you really study (more likely). I have seen this before in supposed "slackers" who finish in the top 5%. Granted, these guys don't study like a traditional student. But what I have noticed is that they study throughout the day in bits and pieces and they don't waste time watching television. They are either studying or hanging out with their friends/partying.

Some people are fast. Really, really fast! How else would you explain those that finish a 2 hour exam in 45 minutes? Wouldn't this speed carry over to their study time, thus making them look like slackers but they still cover the same amount of info in half the time?

But the reality is that if you combine the amount they study with the next guy, it is the same if not more.

The reality is they cover the same amount of info if not more than the next guy - just in much less time.

 

[macdown]

Isn't dermatology a half-step above the Clinique counter girl at any major department store? Put some aloe on it and it will be okay...