Is there a point of applying very broadly on ERAS?

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rodmichael82

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Now let's say someone is applying to a competitive specialty with below average stats will applying to every single residency program make a significant difference?
I was speaking to a 4th year today that's going into Dermatology and he said that after applying to a certain number of programs it becomes a waste of time/money. Logically that doesn't make sense to me. The way I see it is that you're applying to more programs hence increasing the chances of increased interviews. I'm not talking about matching post-interview, I'm talking about getting interviews.

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It's diminishing returns. Once you have hit a certain number of interviews, is it really worth the time/money to travel to another interview to increase your match chance by .1%?
 
It's diminishing returns. Once you have hit a certain number of interviews, is it really worth the time/money to travel to another interview to increase your match chance by .1%?

I agree with you but the point I am making is that applying broadly gets more interviews right? I mean you're talking about matching post-interview. I'm talking about getting interviews after applying with below average stats. Aren't both of those situations different?
 
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I agree with you but the point I am making is that applying broadly gets more interviews right? I mean you're talking about matching post-interview. I'm talking about getting interviews after applying with below average stats. Aren't both of those situations different?

you are correct. the last thing you want is to find yourself a year from now with a ROL of five programs in some competitive field. if you apply to too many programs, and you get more interviews than you can attend, you might regret the lost money; if you apply to too few, you might not have enough interviews, and then you'll be f*cked. no-brainer.
 
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Yea I didn't quite read the original post right, but it's still the same idea. The number of programs to apply to would vary on how strong of candidate they are, what field it is, etc. For example, a FMG might want to apply to nearly every FM program, but a top student at a decent US school probably wouldn't need to.
 
Yea I didn't quite read the original post right, but it's still the same idea. The number of programs to apply to would vary on how strong of candidate they are, what field it is, etc. For example, a FMG might want to apply to nearly every FM program, but a top student at a decent US school probably wouldn't need to.

Yeah I'm talking about a U.S medical student with below average stats (230s step score) applying to competitive specialties e.g Derm, Plastics, ENT, Ortho, Optho etc...
 
In theory, yes I think there may not be any benefit to additional applications past a certain point. Unfortunately, nobody knows where that point is until they've already applied. At a certain point, below-average applicants could probably save some money by not applying to the top 20-30 programs in their field unless there were some compelling reason they would stand out otherwise. Beyond that, the best advice is probably to apply as broadly as you can to programs you would be willing to go to. You can always cancel some interviews later. You may also find that interview dates are limited and conflicting. I know people this year who got 12 offers but could only attend 7 because of scheduling limitations.

I think the 230s hypothetical applicant would be well advised to apply extremely broadly AND apply to a backup field. If he or she can take a research year between M3 and M4 (and that's a weak point on their app) then that would be a good idea too.

The diminishing returns thing really applies to how many actual interviews. The time/money investment is higher at that point and it stands to reason that if you don't get ranked high enough to match at your first 15 programs, the odds are fairly low you'll fare better with a few more. That said, the odds are substantially higher than NOT doing a few more and you hear stories each year of someone who matched at their last program of 16 ranks.
 
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Now let's say someone is applying to a competitive specialty with below average stats will applying to every single residency program make a significant difference?
I was speaking to a 4th year today that's going into Dermatology and he said that after applying to a certain number of programs it becomes a waste of time/money. Logically that doesn't make sense to me. The way I see it is that you're applying to more programs hence increasing the chances of increased interviews. I'm not talking about matching post-interview, I'm talking about getting interviews.
It's not whether it makes a significant difference that matters. Do u want the thought in your head that u didn't do everything you could to match if for some reason you were to go unmatched? Just cough up the money and leave out 1 less worry. And on interview day, don't do this with your interview:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1EyN9xTK94
 
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For an applicant who is very strong, a large number of applications is probably a waste. They are going to have a high rate of interview offers.
For an applicant who is very weak, a large number of applications is also a waste. If their interview rate is very low, then more applications will make little difference other than cost.
For an applicant in the middle, then a larger number of applications makes sense. Their interview rate will be lower, but not low enough to make it a waste.

Problem is, it's almost impossible to know if you're in that middle zone. Plus, most people would rather make the mistake of over applying than miss out on a chance at their preferred field.
 
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Now let's say someone is applying to a competitive specialty with below average stats will applying to every single residency program make a significant difference?
I was speaking to a 4th year today that's going into Dermatology and he said that after applying to a certain number of programs it becomes a waste of time/money. Logically that doesn't make sense to me. The way I see it is that you're applying to more programs hence increasing the chances of increased interviews. I'm not talking about matching post-interview, I'm talking about getting interviews.

At least in derm, one of the issues is that of the 115 programs, there are many applicants who apply to 80+, 90+, 100+, or all 115 programs. Consequently, many programs get 500 applicants for 2-4 spots (I know this because during the past cycles, many programs released these figures when sending out invitations/rejections). Now I'm sure a similar situation happens in most fields, especially in IMG heavy fields like IM, path, and pscyh, however, in derm, of those 500 or so applicants, most are probably US seniors, and most are probably fairly competitive applicants.

If you look at IM, people may apply to 20 or so programs, and they'll select programs based on their regional preference, as well as how competitive they are (i.e. apply to a few safeties, a few reaches, and mostly fit programs). In derm though, the national pool of applicants does not vary based on location or the tier or a program. Instead, applicants tend to carpet bomb programs with applicants, so the same pool of applicants at a "top-tier" program in the Northeast is likely identical to a "low-tier" program in the rural Midwest.

For example, this year, in their invitation and rejection emails, UNC told applicants that they received 550 applicants and they were only able to interview 30 people for their 4 spots in the match. From the AAMC's 2014 data, it looks like 1031 people applied to derm this year (https://www.aamc.org/download/321558/data/factstable38.pdf), so if we assume there is a similar number of applicants this year, about half of all applicants applied to UNC. However, I would actually argue that in terms of "real candidates" the number is higher than one-half. What do I mean? If you look at charting outcomes in the match for 2014, when you combined US seniors and independent applicants who did and did not match, there were 593 people who received at least one dermatology interview. Again, in 2014, 1031 people applied to at least one derm program, but only 593 people received at least one interview. This suggests that there are a sizable number of people who are not competitive for derm who apply, and unsurprisingly, do not get an interview. This is pure speculation on my part, but I would imagine these people do not apply to a lot of programs (i.e. they do it on a whim), which is why I think the "average number of applications" listed in the AAMC document does not reflect the average number of applications among people who are viable contenders for derm.
(Update: if you open the preliminary residency data for 2015, it lists previous years, and in this document, the total number of applicants for 2014 is 858, not 1031 (I have no idea where the discrepancy is).However, it does illustrate that applicants of US and Canadian allopathic schools apply to about 70 programs, IMGs applies to about 27, and DOs applied to about 12. https://www.aamc.org/services/eras/stats/)

Anyhow, in order to allow for a distribution of derm candidates similar to IM candidates (see my point above), I think it would be helpful if ERAS capped the number of applications can submit within a field. However, this would mean ERAS would take in less money, so this will never happen.
 
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always better to have more interviews and cancel them than to not have enough interviews and panic.

That said, once you hit a certain number of interviews, you aren't doing anything more than wasting money. Aiming for 15 or so interviews is probably a decent target.
 
As has been mentioned, apply to a lot of programs and then start being more selective once you have interviews. Accept every interview you receive initially, and then if things pick up and it's becoming untenable to attend a ton of interviews, start canceling or turning down interviews. Yes, you'll spend a lot of money on ERAS fees, but that way you can be sure that you'll have enough interviews to have a high likelihood of matching.

Look at the Charting Outcomes data and specifically the "mean contiguous ranks" figure for students that successfully matched in a specialty. In effect, that is the number of interviews you should be aiming for at a minimum - more if your stats are below those of the specialty average.
 
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