Is there a special classification for this type of gunner?

[typeB-md]

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Okay, i need to run something by all you guys to see if there are subclassifications of gunners. Here is the deal.

In my class there are several (~ 7) of these students that consistently do well on exams and study non-stop during all waking hours.

"So what's the big deal?" you say.

Well, these particular students have no interest in any types of other seminars, workshops, etc. that are all hands on yet are "without a grade." Basically, we have all types of clinical workshops that are attached to our classes. Sometimes it is in the form of tallking with patients, other times, it is in the form of performing mock workups, and yet other times it is in the form of experimenting with medical equipment on each other.

It seems that these students have no real interest in learning, but rather, they just want to outdo their classmates. I find it really weird that they would not want to take these "practical" opportunities.

Anyone else experience a student mentality similar to this?

 

[doc05]

these "practical" opportunities are pointless. you'll learn far more quickly and effectively on the wards. as a preclinical, you need to focus on your grades.

 

[typeB-md]

these "practical" opportunities are pointless. you'll learn far more quickly and effectively on the wards. as a preclinical, you need to focus on your grades.

maybe i'm the weird one, then, for finding these things somewhat interesting from a curiosity point of view.

 

[MGoBlueDO]

In our school...that only happens during exam times...but its good to get hands on experience---our school assigned points taht go towards our grade for these clinical things...we always have mock interviews (stupid cause they are unrealistic, but it gives you a feel for what your doing), if we didn't do a pelvic exam on women who volunteered and got paid a ton of money, then we'd all automatically fail our OBGYN, so this forced experience makes our gunners do all the non-book stuff...you're doing the right thing by attending cause on clinicals...you're early experience will show, whereas they'd probably be lost cause you can't learn it in a book. Clinical are also high pressure, preceptors and residents don't always have time to show you what to do...in first two year at least if you screw up, you know the doctor and he'll have time set aside to teach if they run these types of labs...

 

[tigershark]

Seems like you are more of a gunner if you go to that type of crap. Maybe your school is different, but at my school if anything is described as a workshop, seminar, or "roundtable discussion" there is a 100% chance it will be a total wank.

 

[typeB-md]

Seems like you are more of a gunner if you go to that type of crap. Maybe your school is different, but at my school if anything is described as a workshop, seminar, or "roundtable discussion" there is a 100% chance it will be a total wank.

these workshops and stuff are part of our curriculum but they are not graded and not high pressure. they are not so much discussions either... they are clinical relations to give us a break from the book work of our current basic science classes.

for instance, there was an intubation workshop the othe day and we are put in groups to learn this stuff and have fun. another time, there was an IV workshop where we got to use a dummy to practice on, and there were even some volunteers.

to me, these things seem like pretty cool opportunities to put down the BS science work and learn some interesting stuff that not everyone gets the chance to learn. and there is validity to the argument that we will probably get this stuff ad nauseum.. but it seems like most people in medical school should be interested in this stuff... especially those individuals that want to try and do their best.

 

[typeB-md]

In our school...that only happens during exam times...but its good to get hands on experience---our school assigned points taht go towards our grade for these clinical things...we always have mock interviews (stupid cause they are unrealistic, but it gives you a feel for what your doing), if we didn't do a pelvic exam on women who volunteered and got paid a ton of money, then we'd all automatically fail our OBGYN, so this forced experience makes our gunners do all the non-book stuff...you're doing the right thing by attending cause on clinicals...you're early experience will show, whereas they'd probably be lost cause you can't learn it in a book. Clinical are also high pressure, preceptors and residents don't always have time to show you what to do...in first two year at least if you screw up, you know the doctor and he'll have time set aside to teach if they run these types of labs...

see i don't even look at it like prep for the clinical years. it really justs interests me. i'm just surprised at the lack of interest that my class has towards things like these.

 

[thackl]

What about the ones that don't study that much, get great grades and still don't go to the extra things? What kind of gunner? I'm in no clubs and the few extra's I've attended were a waste (I will learn it and remember it next yr when it's required). I have family time and personal interests outside of medicine.

 

[typeB-md]

What about the ones that don't study that much, get great grades and still don't go to the extra things? What kind of gunner? I'm in no clubs and the few extra's I've attended were a waste (I will learn it and remember it next yr when it's required). I have family time and personal interests outside of medicine.

then it fits within your persona to not go to these extra things.

i'm specifically referring to those people that ask 1000 questions about everything and when the chance to do something hands-on, related to what we're studying, they don't take it.

you don't do anything, ever... that's the difference.

 

[hidingOUT]

What about the ones that don't study that much, get great grades and still don't go to the extra things? What kind of gunner? I'm in no clubs and the few extra's I've attended were a waste (I will learn it and remember it next yr when it's required). I have family time and personal interests outside of medicine.

Yo, you are not a gunner.
You gotta stomp on others (usually while smiling) and whig out 24/7 about your grades to be a gunner. Grades and gunning don't necessarily have a direct correlation.

These gunners that type-B is referring to are the worst of the gunners, the ones who scare me. I think they are into medicine for the money alone. Or their ego complexes or something. We have about 5 in my class. It is weird, because around the faculty all things medical & GRADED are INCREDIBLY INTERESTING and fabulous. Yet when it's a pass/fail or optional learning experience, they seem to-poof!-disappear.

 

[WTGGrl]

I think the reason you dislike these "gunners" goes something like this:

You feel that if a classmate is studying all the time and ignoring (ungraded) clinical exposure, they will become "book" doctors and not know how to deal with patients or apply procedural clinical skills.

However, if you read the responses in this post and listen to upperclassmen in your school, you will learn that this early clinical exposure contributes next to nothing to your overall skill as a clinician. It's probably only part of the curriculum as a recruitment ploy and to keep you from being bored studying 24/7.

The real issue at hand is how these people manage to study 24/7 and get outstanding grades consistently. They are obviously very focused. I'm not saying they should be praised, but don't bring them down just because you can't accept their talents.

Medical students have the most flagrant inferiority complexes that I have ever seen. I used to be a non-science major, and even though there were incredibly intelligent people in my classes (also graded on a bell curve), there was no word "gunner" and people were never frowned upon for putting an extra few hours into their literature paper.

Okay, i need to run something by all you guys to see if there are subclassifications of gunners. Here is the deal.

In my class there are several (~ 7) of these students that consistently do well on exams and study non-stop during all waking hours.

"So what's the big deal?" you say.

Well, these particular students have no interest in any types of other seminars, workshops, etc. that are all hands on yet are "without a grade." Basically, we have all types of clinical workshops that are attached to our classes. Sometimes it is in the form of tallking with patients, other times, it is in the form of performing mock workups, and yet other times it is in the form of experimenting with medical equipment on each other.

It seems that these students have no real interest in learning, but rather, they just want to outdo their classmates. I find it really weird that they would not want to take these "practical" opportunities.

Anyone else experience a student mentality similar to this?

 

[thackl]

i'm specifically referring to those people that ask 1000 questions about everything and when the chance to do something hands-on, related to what we're studying, they don't take it.

you don't do anything, ever... that's the difference.

Oh, hell no...... I haven't been to class in like a month.

 

[thackl]

Medical students have the most flagrant inferiority complexes that I have ever seen. I used to be a non-science major....

Amen....... though not really so bad at my school.

 

[bigfrank]

I would say that those 7 students the OP mentioned are of the AOA subtype of gunner.

 

[thackl]

AOA is tough. You have to really bust you ass for Jr AOA or be very political for Sr. AOA. I probably won't get either 🙁

 

[gschl1234]

However, if you read the responses in this post and listen to upperclassmen in your school, you will learn that this early clinical exposure contributes next to nothing to your overall skill as a clinician. It's probably only part of the curriculum as a recruitment ploy and to keep you from being bored studying 24/7.

So, are you saying this as an upperclassman who's had lots of clinical experience in the first 2 years or are you an upperclassman who's had minimal clincal exposure during the first 2 years? I'm interested in hearing your opinion on why early clnical exposure contributes next to nothing. Many 4th year students at my school say that it makes a huge amount of difference especially when comparing students from different schools rotating together. Specifically, they've said that you can tell the difference by how comfortable students from our med school are with patients compared to students from other schools. Older doctors who didn't have any clinical exposure until 3rd year talk about how stressful/scary their first rotation was because they didn't know how to interview, do a PE, write a note, give an oral presentation etc...and they say it's great that we're being taught these things now and how they wished they had the opportunity. Granted, these are doctors who are teaching us this stuff so maybe their point of view would be different from other doctors?

 

[hidingOUT]

I think the reason you dislike these "gunners" goes something like this:

You feel that if a classmate is studying all the time and ignoring (ungraded) clinical exposure, they will become "book" doctors and not know how to deal with patients or apply procedural clinical skills.

However, if you read the responses in this post and listen to upperclassmen in your school, you will learn that this early clinical exposure contributes next to nothing to your overall skill as a clinician. It's probably only part of the curriculum as a recruitment ploy and to keep you from being bored studying 24/7.

The real issue at hand is how these people manage to study 24/7 and get outstanding grades consistently. They are obviously very focused. I'm not saying they should be praised, but don't bring them down just because you can't accept their talents.

Medical students have the most flagrant inferiority complexes that I have ever seen. I used to be a non-science major, and even though there were incredibly intelligent people in my classes (also graded on a bell curve), there was no word "gunner" and people were never frowned upon for putting an extra few hours into their literature paper.

I can't speak for type B, but it seems to me you are missing the point here. We all know how to work hard, and focusing is a talent, no doubt. I'm not sure everyone that studies 24/7 has the highest of grades, but they sure do have f*&t up personal lives, in that by definition they are imbalanced because ALL they do is study. I think they are the ones with inferiority complexes (or, maybe they just wanna pass, but that's not the point to this thread- it's the gunners, "AOA subtype" just may be the right title- who are up for discussion here).

I was also a non-science major, and you're right- med students do seem pretty neurotic compared to the general population (and I took tons of ART classes for what that statement is worth). Yet these gunners who suddenly appear only for the "carrots" really disturb me. I don't trust them to think for themselves in the future, actually. I fear they will listen to any and every drug rep in their path. Sell themselves over to the MAN as fast as they can. They just creep me OUT.

 

[tupac_don]

these "practical" opportunities are pointless. you'll learn far more quickly and effectively on the wards. as a preclinical, you need to focus on your grades.

Exactly these guys are smart, they are minimizing all the other crap and focusing at issue at hand, which is grades. This is absolutely correct strategy, all that other junk is pointless, you will learn all you need to know on wards. The main determinant during first two years is grades, so the intellingent strategy is to stack up as much as possible. It just makes sense.

 

[tupac_don]

to me, these things seem like pretty cool opportunities to put down the BS science work and learn some interesting stuff that not everyone gets the chance to learn. and there is validity to the argument that we will probably get this stuff ad nauseum.. but it seems like most people in medical school should be interested in this stuff... especially those individuals that want to try and do their best.[/QUOTE]

For sure it's cool and especially to see the practical side of knowledge, I don't think anyone is disputing that. But if it comes down to spending several hours learning to put IV lines versus, studying for a test I will chose the test. Just b/c the other stuff will come when you need it.

 

[Dupree]

First 2 years of med school:

Do what you gots to do to pass your classes and pass Step 1. Use your remaining time to have fun, relax, and do what else you enjoy, not go to lame non-mandatory "sessions" that your school puts together. You'll get more than enough clinical experience in years 3, 4, and beyond.

 

[thackl]

I was thinking about this today and unless you plan on getting Jr AOA, which is very hard, then you're going to have to be more involved in the clubs, charities, extracurriculars, ect in order to be a true AOA *****. Afterall, beyond the 5 or so jr AOA'ers, the rest must be voted on.

 

[bigfrank]

I was thinking about this today and unless you plan on getting Jr AOA, which is very hard, then you're going to have to be more involved in the clubs, charities, extracurriculars, ect in order to be a true AOA *****. Afterall, beyond the 5 or so jr AOA'ers, the rest must be voted on.

I said this mostly tongue-in-cheek. At my school, for example, even junior AOA is an "election." 🙄

 

[typeB-md]

I think the reason you dislike these "gunners" goes something like this:

You feel that if a classmate is studying all the time and ignoring (ungraded) clinical exposure, they will become "book" doctors and not know how to deal with patients or apply procedural clinical skills.

However, if you read the responses in this post and listen to upperclassmen in your school, you will learn that this early clinical exposure contributes next to nothing to your overall skill as a clinician. It's probably only part of the curriculum as a recruitment ploy and to keep you from being bored studying 24/7.

The real issue at hand is how these people manage to study 24/7 and get outstanding grades consistently. They are obviously very focused. I'm not saying they should be praised, but don't bring them down just because you can't accept their talents.

Medical students have the most flagrant inferiority complexes that I have ever seen. I used to be a non-science major, and even though there were incredibly intelligent people in my classes (also graded on a bell curve), there was no word "gunner" and people were never frowned upon for putting an extra few hours into their literature paper.

it sounds like you missed the boat on this one.

I am TypeB-md... the typeB, non-invasive, do what you like, i'm hear to enjoy myself medical student. I study very much and enjoy my studying.

It has nothing to do with inferiority but with curiosity with these individuals. When in the classroom they give off the image like they are very dedicated to learning. But then when we have these opportunities, they seem to disappear and give off a "oh, what a waste of time" attitude.

Is my 4.0 not as good as these folks'? Not to mention i study much less time for my equivalent grade. Maybe it's because i actually enjoy medical school, dunno.

 

[scootad.]

honestly, this smells more like jealousy disguised as curiosity. jealous that yer wasting your time "enjoying" yerself at these stupid workshops while those handful of classmates of yours are either at the bar or plotting the way to ruin the curve on that next exam. 😉

 

[typeB-md]

honestly, this smells more like jealousy disguised as curiosity. jealous that yer wasting your time "enjoying" yerself at these stupid workshops while those handful of classmates of yours are either at the bar or plotting the way to ruin the curve on that next exam. 😉

let me reiterate. i could not care less about how well people do in school. i am most likely not going into something that is very competitive.

it just strikes me as funny how people are all "grades, grades, grades" while never giving a **** about stuff that might actually correlate to life. and yes, i know we "get this stuff ad nauseum during clinical years," but it's to the point where they scoff and lie to try and get out of these things.

let me again reiterate that typeb-md doesn't care about other people's grades. i am looking out for my own ass and this trend just struck me as odd.

 

[skeezixdoc]

Don't let the gunners bring you down. Who cares if some student is a machine, driven by fear of rejection, humiliation, and full of insecurity. You should try to engage them if possible, engage them in discourse on some of the finer aspects of life...art, music, sports, etc. Yeah, sure.

If this can't be done, well, so what. They'll find a place for themselves in medicine. Hopefully, it will be far away from me.

I see them everyday on the wards. They say something to their patient, who looks back at them bewildered because they don't know what the hell they're talking about. They talk over the patient when that patient is trying to ask them a question, and thus never answer the question to the satisfaction of the patient. They have no instinct, no intuition, because they failed to engage themselves in the ugliness of being up to their elbows in some patient's **** and urine. They're disgusted by the frailty of those they treat, interested only in the intellectual side of medicine. Ultimately this disgust is driven by their horrified realization that medicine is dirty, ugly, and hands on work.

If you want to be a scientist, please go into research and leave the caring to those of us who can empathize with the pain and indignity that occur when one becomes ill.

 

[WTGGrl]

it sounds like you missed the boat on this one.

I am TypeB-md... the typeB, non-invasive, do what you like, i'm hear to enjoy myself medical student. I study very much and enjoy my studying.

It has nothing to do with inferiority but with curiosity with these individuals. When in the classroom they give off the image like they are very dedicated to learning. But then when we have these opportunities, they seem to disappear and give off a "oh, what a waste of time" attitude.

Is my 4.0 not as good as these folks'? Not to mention i study much less time for my equivalent grade. Maybe it's because i actually enjoy medical school, dunno.

You say you don't care about these people's grades, yet you know their GPA? Then you defend yourself by arguing that you have a high GPA too.. Are you trying to prove that you're smarter than these people? I'm quite confused by this argument.

This is an Internet board where things are anonymous, so you have nothing to prove here. Don't be insecure regarding these people and just let them succeed in whatever facet of medical school they want.

 

[bigfrank]

Here's trying to be coy by saying that it is the hard-working nerds that have to study 15 hours a day to pull a 4.0 but that typeB-md also has a 4.0 but he's like so totally cool and doesn't have to get bogged down with the nerds by studying.

Get it?

He's cool, he's cool, dammit!

 

[Dupree]

There is no such thing as a Type-B medical student. Only Type-A students pretending to be Type-B.

 

[hidingOUT]

There is no such thing as a Type-B medical student. Only Type-A students pretending to be Type-B.

This is probably true. There are of course, degrees of "type A". I have massive time urgency issues. And, although my med school friends are the "most" laid back in our class, they still seem pretty type A to me. Especially if you put a bunch of med students in a room together, and then bring in your "old buddies from the art world". The interactions could be written up in a sociology journal, no doubt.

 

[Loopo Henle]

I was thinking about this today and unless you plan on getting Jr AOA, which is very hard, then you're going to have to be more involved in the clubs, charities, extracurriculars, ect in order to be a true AOA *****. Afterall, beyond the 5 or so jr AOA'ers, the rest must be voted on.

I just love to see all of this AOA bashing. Gunner bashing. Sounds like sour grapes to me. I don't think there has been anyone in the history of AOA who has turned down induction, and I doubt you would either if given the opportunity. Does induction into the medical honor society automatically make one a gunner i.e a pathetic grade ***** who will step on anyone to be #1? Some AOA types just work hard and do well. Not all "AOA-type" gunners would sell out their classmates for a good grade. As for the original question, Why do you care what these gunners do or don't do? Why do you care what grades they are getting, or how they are getting them. I for one loved to go to these extra-curriculars because that is why I went into medical school. I would have killed for more hands on opportunities, but it never occured to me to get all worked up about why some of my classmates didn't take these chances. I say it is their loss. I do agree with the previous post that there are no type B MD students. A true type B would never have noticed this trend in the first place, much less cared anything about it.

 

[ice_23]

And there's nothing wrong with being type-A either.

-Ice

 

[hidingOUT]

And there's nothing wrong with being type-A either.

-Ice

There isn't anything wrong with being type A, or type B, or even with being a gunner. If anything is "wrong" at all, it's the system that promotes people with the previously described personality traits going into HEALTH CARE. That's what I don't like, because they don't appear healthy (if that's "health" they got I don't want it!), and all they seem to CARE about are grades, prestige, and money. WTF? I dunno about this AOA business. Or the "classification" of AOA subtype....this is for others to debate.

I just know people only into all of this for the grade (at my school anyway) are the reason I stay away a lot. Quite simply, they seem unusually unhappy. Best not to associate.

I am type A. It is a fact. Anybody else out there type A?

 

[ice_23]

There isn't anything wrong with being type A, or type B, or even with being a gunner. If anything is "wrong" at all, it's the system that promotes people with the previously described personality traits going into HEALTH CARE. That's what I don't like, because they don't appear healthy (if that's "health" they got I don't want it!), and all they seem to CARE about are grades, prestige, and money. WTF? I dunno about this AOA business. Or the "classification" of AOA subtype....this is for others to debate.

I just know people only into all of this for the grade (at my school anyway) are the reason I stay away a lot. Quite simply, they seem unusually unhappy. Best not to associate.

I am type A. It is a fact. Anybody else out there type A?

There are times when many people are in certain things for "the grade." Hell, I was solely doing work in my biochem/genetics class for a high grade. And even though I'm interested in anatomy, my main motivation in studying is so I can do well in it and get a high grade. Maybe that makes me grade grubbing, or maybe it makes me practical; who knows, and who cares? Does that fact mean I'll be a worse doctor than someone who does "care" about those subjects, or any other one?

I just don't see the point in ostracizing those who actually succeed in doing the above and, as a result, get AOA. Jealousy is a ******ed emotion.

-Ice

 

[bigfrank]

It is a common misconception, rather prevalent in my class, especially among the bitchy/single females, that those with the worst grades are automatically the "caring and people-centered" student doctors. 🙄

 

[gschl1234]

There is no such thing as a Type-B medical student. Only Type-A students pretending to be Type-B.

Why not test yourself 😉
http://www.psych.uncc.edu/pagoolka/TypeA-B-intro.html

 

[typeB-md]

Why not test yourself 😉
http://www.psych.uncc.edu/pagoolka/TypeA-B-intro.html

131 out of a possible 380

is that typeA or typeB?

 

[HITMAN]

It seems to me you are missing the point here. I'm not sure everyone that studies 24/7 has the highest of grades, but they sure do have f*&t up personal lives, in that by definition they are imbalanced because ALL they do is study. I think they are the ones with inferiority complexes.

Yet these gunners who suddenly appear only for the "carrots" really disturb me. I don't trust them to think for themselves in the future, actually. I fear they will listen to any and every drug rep in their path. Sell themselves over to the MAN as fast as they can. They just creep me OUT.

No, you're missing the point. You need to spend more time studying your textbooks and less studying your classmates' "f*&t up personal lives". Why do you care how much they study? They clearly don't spend a second of their day worrying about what you do in your spare time, much less plotting your future interactions with drug reps. As you start to spend less time worrying about your gunner classmates and more time worrying about yourself, you will undoubtedly start to see your inferiority complex disappear.

 

[DrRichardKimble]

I feel more stupid for having read these two pages...

 

[typeB-md]

I feel more stupid for having read these two pages...

and you've made everyone else more stupid for having bumped a week old thread...

 

[WVmed]

and you've made everyone else more stupid for having bumped a week old thread...

Why is everyone so upset about type A's? I think it is just a shock to a lot of type A's that there are other type A's out there with a little bit more focus on the little details. Anyone in medical school must be a relatively good student.

But remember the bottom line, we are all people and no one is going to die any "better" than anyone else. the type A mentality either stops early in life, or goes to the grave. take your pick. Life can be much more enjoyable if you embrace your type A mentality and use it to BOOST other people's self esteems and not always get down and out about "why did I just get a P on this test when every1 else got HP????" I mean look at the big picture... If you are snooping around on this message board, you are a type A person.. sorry that's a fact. the next step after acceptance is to use your talents in a positive way (without hurting others!)

 

[Loopo Henle]

131 out of a possible 380

is that typeA or typeB?

I don't know. It could be type B, but it could also be type A. A person of your massive intellect could easily have answered the questions in order to achieve the type that he/she desired. Of course, that would be a very type A thing to do. This is why personality quizzes are silly. Fooling a personality quiz poses little challenge to those who plan on making 270 on step one without studying. I like to rely on actual behavior to determine if someone is type A or B. Someone who brags consistently about how superior they are when compared with the rest of us mortals (39 MCAT, Perfect body fat percentage even on a bad day), and even challenges people to debates when they disagree like a dueling old west gunfighter with a bruised ego. I would characterize that person as type A, probably type A+. I would characterize a type B person as someone who accepts that there are other ways of doing things in the world, other opinions that may have merit, and does not strive to make others feel inferior. I guess one could act one way on a message board, and another in real life. The question becomes, which is the real you? A type B personality may be God-like perfect, but they would probably not think that they were. Please forgive me for continuing this weeks old thread.