Is there any point in waiting for MD?

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ODST

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I am extremely concerned about the cost of medical school, I have little interest in taking out $70,000 in loans per year at a private or oos MD school. My state schools are also very expensive. At this point, I would prefer to just apply DO and hope for an acceptance at LECOM. I could also avoid the opportunity cost of waiting for a year. I am well aware of the problems DO graduates have with securing competitive residencies.
My stats are 3.9+ GPA and 517 MCAT (128/130/128/131). I probably won't be able to do enough research by the next cycle to interest the top schools. Is there any chance I could get an instate rate at an oos school, or a serious scholarship at a private school? I haven't been able to find much helpful information on the subject.
Thanks
 
I heard that some schools will consider you in state after you reside there for 1-2 yrs during med school. So maybe OOS rates are for the first two years.
 
Considering the costs at this point is silly. Being a doctor aint cheap. But you'll reap the rewards.

If you want to go DO for other reasons, by all means do. But the cost? Da fuq did you think it would be when you started?

I ended with 240K.

I pay 3,000$ per month.
I still live very comfortably.
 
I don't see a significant difference in MD vs. DO as practicing physicians. Residency match is the only hurdle. A good DO friend of mine has been an adcom for several MD/residency/fellowship programs, has been faculty and taught at said programs, and is currently pulling well over $500k/year - mostly because he kills himself with overtime, but still. Considering that he's working in my preferred specialty working the exact shift I want to work, it's pretty hard for me to look down on a DO education.

I'm right there with you in valuing a cheaper education.
 
bigbite said:
I just interviewed at a SUNY and you only need to live there one year to establish residency (only caveat is that you can't live in the dorms that first year per New York state rules). Your stats are amazing by the way, so you could potentially qualify for scholarships as well
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Thanks, that sounds like a great option. Hope you get accepted btw.
 
ODST said:
I am extremely concerned about the cost of medical school, I have little interest in taking out $70,000 in loans per year at a private or oos MD school. My state schools are also very expensive. At this point, I would prefer to just apply DO and hope for an acceptance at LECOM. I could also avoid the opportunity cost of waiting for a year. I am well aware of the problems DO graduates have with securing competitive residencies.
My stats are 3.9+ GPA and 517 MCAT (128/130/128/131). I probably won't be able to do enough research by the next cycle to interest the top schools. Is there any chance I could get an instate rate at an oos school, or a serious scholarship at a private school? I haven't been able to find much helpful information on the subject.
Thanks
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You're competitive for basically all MD with those stats OP. I'm a big fan of DO schools, chances are if I am fortunate to matriculate next fall, it would be at one of them. With that said, it's still a more straight forward path getting that MD. People take on the debt and make it work, it just is what it is.

Also consider HPSP, or the several rural or underserved health programs you could do with loan forgiveness. There are options.
 
workaholic181 said:
You're competitive for basically all MD with those stats OP. I'm a big fan of DO schools, chances are if I am fortunate to matriculate next fall, it would be at one of them. With that said, it's still a more straight forward path getting that MD. People take on the debt and make it work, it just is what it is.

Also consider HPSP, or the several rural or underserved health programs you could do with loan forgiveness. There are options.
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Thanks, the rural loan forgiveness programs are definitely interesting. Good luck with your applications.
 
Aren't DO schools also expensive? Ive never heard of someone skipping by the MD route to DO school to save money.

Anyway....even if there are cheaper DO schools, it's not worth the small savings to not attempt MD schools. And who says you'd get into those cheaper DO anyway.

BTW...with your stats, a state or midtier private med might offer merit.

What is your home state
 
If you're interested in rural medicine and have the life activities to back that up, there are several MD schools that specifically target that and might be willing to throw some scholarship money your way to attract you. There are also, as has been noted, state schools that consider you in state if they accept you or accept you with a scholarship (TX). So dig a little further, search here, and post some more direct questions here to get that information. (It's all here somewhere --)

There are also numerous post-graduation debt forgiveness options available for doctors willing to go to rural and/or underserved areas.

Your education is an investment -- the most important one you will ever make. Don't let fear of debt keep you from making the smart investment.
 
calivianya said:
I don't see a significant difference in MD vs. DO as practicing physicians. Residency match is the only hurdle. A good DO friend of mine has been an adcom for several MD/residency/fellowship programs, has been faculty and taught at said programs, and is currently pulling well over $500k/year - mostly because he kills himself with overtime, but still. Considering that he's working in my preferred specialty working the exact shift I want to work, it's pretty hard for me to look down on a DO education.

I'm right there with you in valuing a cheaper education.
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Said like someone who's never been in the Match or had to deal with the current day's reality of school expansion and loss of protected AOA positions in desirable specialties.

Being a DO isn't a career killer, but you have to work twice as hard or more to get into some specialties, and some fields are now almost entirely off-limits due to the merger. There's also a good chance your desired specialty will change and you'll be SOL because of your penny pinching. And even if you can enter your specialty of choice, your training options and subsequent fellowship options will be more limited than a MD with lower board scores.

And you may say, "but I'll work super hard and blow away the boards and blah blah" but the simple fact is that everyone has that plan. If you have that idea and you get a 215 out of a MD school, things like EM, anesthesia, rads, etc are still on the table. Get that score out of a DO school? All bets are FM, IM generalist, or peds are your future. Don't make the mistake so many people I have personally known have made and think DO=MD, I'm gonna crush the boards, etc only to end up in primary care at a low tier residency when they would've likely been fine had they had the same scores having gone MD. And the ones I feel the worst four are the ones whose interests changed, and now they're boxed out of their dream specialty. Their shortsighted mistake cost them literally millions of dollars down the line. Do the smart thing, not the thing your stupid twentysomething brain thinks is smart.
 
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I applied to 26 DO schools and zero MD schools. If you have the stats to get into MD (you do) and your only concern is cost of medical school, go MD 100%. The only advantage DO has over MD is with primary care (you can wowz your patients with your magical OMM). Any other area of medicine, MD has the advantage over DO because of residency/fellowship spots per applicant. If you go to DO school, you won't be able to change your mind about specialty like you can with MD. Say your goal is internal medicine so you pick DO because it's cheaper and internal medicine is just as easy with DO as it is MD. Then halfway through residency you decide you want to pursue a fellowship and become a cardiologist. Much much tougher to find that fellowship as a DO.

The difference in tuition between your state MD schools and LECOM is another 1-4 years of loans. Is that cost worth the added career options you'll have as an MD? For me it would be.
 
bears1992 said:
I applied to 26 DO schools and zero MD schools. If you have the stats to get into MD (you do) and your only concern is cost of medical school, go MD 100%. The only advantage DO has over MD is with primary care (you can wowz your patients with your magical OMM). Any other area of medicine, MD has the advantage over DO because of residency/fellowship spots per applicant. If you go to DO school, you won't be able to change your mind about specialty like you can with MD. Say your goal is internal medicine so you pick DO because it's cheaper and internal medicine is just as easy with DO as it is MD. Then halfway through residency you decide you want to pursue a fellowship and become a cardiologist. Much much tougher to find that fellowship as a DO.

The difference in tuition between your state MD schools and LECOM is another 1-4 years of loans. Is that cost worth the added career options you'll have as an MD? For me it would be.
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Getting top tier residencies in primary care is easier from MD, so the advantage is there even in primary care. You can learn OMM as an MD.
 
bears1992 said:
Well shoot. Doctor has the letters DO in it, that has to count for something right?
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A DO is a doctor, which is really what matters in the end for many people. When you're an attending, the initials after your name won't matter much. It's just getting to that point where it can hinder you, and why would you put yourself in that position unless you had to? That doesn't mean you won't be as much of a doctor or that you won't be a good doctor. One of the better surgeons I've worked with was a DO, and one of the worst was an MD. It's all about the individual. But you probably aren't going to be a powerhouse research physician coming from DO. It can happen, but it's a lot more difficult.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
A DO is a doctor, which is really what matters in the end for many people. When you're an attending, the initials after your name won't matter much. It's just getting to that point where it can hinder you, and why would you put yourself in that position unless you had to? That doesn't mean you won't be as much of a doctor or that you won't be a good doctor. One of the better surgeons I've worked with was a DO, and one of the worst was an MD. It's all about the individual. But you probably aren't going to be a powerhouse research physician coming from DO. It can happen, but it's a lot more difficult.
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My goal is to practice rural medicine on the plains of Africa. I'm worried that MDs will snatch up all the good patients and I will get stuck with some poor patients with leprosy.
 
bears1992 said:
My goal is to practice rural medicine on the plains of Africa. I'm worried that MDs will snatch up all the good patients and I will get stuck with some poor patients with leprosy.
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DOs aren't able to practice everywhere internationally. If you aren't careful, you'll end up as a glorified CNA.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
DOs aren't able to practice everywhere internationally. If you aren't careful, you'll end up as a glorified CNA.
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I did see a map of what countries DOs could practice and I was surprised to find that many undeveloped countries were not on the list. Is there a specific reason why countries in Africa and Asia would not recognize a US licensed physician? Would going to DO route make it difficult to do missions work? My church does frequent missions trips to Haiti but I do not see Haiti on the list of countries that grants full privileges to DOs. Would I not be able to treat patients while in Haiti?
 
bears1992 said:
I did see a map of what countries DOs could practice and I was surprised to find that many undeveloped countries were not on the list. Is there a specific reason why countries in Africa and Asia would not recognize a US licensed physician? Would going to DO route make it difficult to do missions work? My church does frequent missions trips to Haiti but I do not see Haiti on the list of countries that grants full privileges to DOs. Would I not be able to treat patients while in Haiti?
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I'm no expert, but from what I gather, if the country does not recognize DOs, you cannot practice medicine there. However, that doesn't mean that you can't necessarily do mission work. Additionally, that list may not be accurate. For example, Haiti has recognized DOs since 2013 despite not being on that list.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
I'm no expert, but from what I gather, if the country does not recognize DOs, you cannot practice medicine there. However, that doesn't mean that you can't necessarily do mission work. Additionally, that list may not be accurate. For example, Haiti has recognized DOs since 2013 despite not being on that list.
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In a situation where my church is doing mission work in a 3rd world country that DOES NOT recognize DO's, could I get my licence revoked from the US if I went to that country and saw patients? My church usually sends an NP and physician (not sure if DO or MD) to set up a free clinic. They bring tons and tons of medical supplies and they see patients that line up outside of the clinic. I understand that a third world country is probably not going to freak out over this, but would the Department of Health bring consequences and possibly reprimand me for this?
 
I think the focus on top tier residencies is a little ridiculous. I was just looking through the website for the physician group that serves as the intensivists for my unit, and most of them did residencies/fellowships that were either local or some place I'd never heard of before. No Princetons, Yales, Dukes, Harvards, Stanfords, etc. for their MD programs either. Guess what? They're all working as physicians. I know they're paid well by my facility. Two of them are also DOs.

Doesn't seem like where you did your residency matters at all when it comes to actually working somewhere, in my observation of my local physician population. Maybe it matters in other parts of the country, but nobody gives a crap here.
 
bears1992 said:
In a situation where my church is doing mission work in a 3rd world country that DOES NOT recognize DO's, could I get my licence revoked from the US if I went to that country and saw patients? My church usually sends an NP and physician (not sure if DO or MD) to set up a free clinic. They bring tons and tons of medical supplies and they see patients that line up outside of the clinic. I understand that a third world country is probably not going to freak out over this, but would the Department of Health bring consequences and possibly reprimand me for this?
Click to expand...

I don't want to speculate, as I'm not sure. In the military, we have DO physicians go on humanitarian missions, but they are practicing as members of the military and don't really have that issue. I'm not sure what would happen to you in the US as a civilian if you practiced medicine in a country that doesn't recognize your degree. Probably nothing good though. That would be an issue to ask the AOA or your state's licensing board.
 
calivianya said:
I think the focus on top tier residencies is a little ridiculous. I was just looking through the website for the physician group that serves as the intensivists for my unit, and most of them did residencies/fellowships that were either local or some place I'd never heard of before. No Princetons, Yales, Dukes, Harvards, Stanfords, etc. for their MD programs either. Guess what? They're all working as physicians. I know they're paid well by my facility. Two of them are also DOs.

Doesn't seem like where you did your residency matters at all when it comes to actually working somewhere, in my observation of my local physician population. Maybe it matters in other parts of the country, but nobody gives a crap here.
Click to expand...

It matters in certain instances. If you want a research career, going to a top tier residency will get you a top tier fellowship or into academia. Going to a community residency will make it much harder to do that, and getting into a fellowship from a community program with no fellowship of its own is difficult as well. If you have no desire to ever do academics, there is nothing wrong with training at a community program other than that you may not see as much pathology.
 
calivianya said:
I think the focus on top tier residencies is a little ridiculous. I was just looking through the website for the physician group that serves as the intensivists for my unit, and most of them did residencies/fellowships that were either local or some place I'd never heard of before. No Princetons, Yales, Dukes, Harvards, Stanfords, etc. for their MD programs either. Guess what? They're all working as physicians. I know they're paid well by my facility. Two of them are also DOs.

Doesn't seem like where you did your residency matters at all when it comes to actually working somewhere, in my observation of my local physician population. Maybe it matters in other parts of the country, but nobody gives a crap here.
Click to expand...

When it comes to working somewhere, where you do your residency doesn't matter. Even a fellowship isn't necessary. But if you want to pursue an academic career, match into a competitive specialty (derm/ortho/ENT etc), do something in addition to medicine (law, business etc), where you did your residency matters, and by extension, where you went to medical school also matters. The structural differences between MD and DO schools are much more significant than the inherent differences among MD schools.

At this point, it's simply wiser and safer to pursue US MD and US DO. It's better to keep all your doors open.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
DOs aren't able to practice everywhere internationally. If you aren't careful, you'll end up as a glorified CNA.
Click to expand...
If the DO degree is recognized by the organization providing care (e.g. Médecins Sans Frontières), you may practice in any country where they work.
 
bears1992 said:
Also. let me just say that if I went to one my DO interviews, and another applicant told me they a 3.9 GPA and a 517 MCAT, I would assume they had one heck of an IA that bumped them all the way down to DO.
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That or they just make strange or poorly informed decisions... I knew at least one person in college who applied only DO because she wanted to be "holistic" or whatever despite having MD-capable stats.
 
bears1992 said:
Also. let me just say that if I went to one my DO interviews, and another applicant told me they a 3.9 GPA and a 517 MCAT, I would assume they had one heck of an IA that bumped them all the way down to DO.
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That was literally me lol, except my GPA was a 3.8 and I never applied MD. That's a long story, but no IAs or red flags on my part. There are some people like that in the DO world, we're just a rarity.
 
bears1992 said:
In a situation where my church is doing mission work in a 3rd world country that DOES NOT recognize DO's, could I get my licence revoked from the US if I went to that country and saw patients? My church usually sends an NP and physician (not sure if DO or MD) to set up a free clinic. They bring tons and tons of medical supplies and they see patients that line up outside of the clinic. I understand that a third world country is probably not going to freak out over this, but would the Department of Health bring consequences and possibly reprimand me for this?
Click to expand...
Some countries have more lax rules for volunteer work, hence why physician assistants aren't recognized in most countries but a great number allow them to work as part of medical missions. It's really damn near impossible to lose your license back home for stuff you do abroad unless it's prison-worthy, but some countries straight up won't let you practice, so stay inside the law.
 
gyngyn said:
If the DO degree is recognized by the organization providing care (e.g. Médecins Sans Frontières), you may practice in any country where they work.
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While that's true in most developing nations, it isn't always true. Being a nonprofit doesn't grant an organization sovereign immunity. The Philippines is one such nation, if I recall correctly, which is a real pity because they have a huge shortage of physicians.
 
calivianya said:
I think the focus on top tier residencies is a little ridiculous. I was just looking through the website for the physician group that serves as the intensivists for my unit, and most of them did residencies/fellowships that were either local or some place I'd never heard of before. No Princetons, Yales, Dukes, Harvards, Stanfords, etc. for their MD programs either. Guess what? They're all working as physicians. I know they're paid well by my facility. Two of them are also DOs.

Doesn't seem like where you did your residency matters at all when it comes to actually working somewhere, in my observation of my local physician population. Maybe it matters in other parts of the country, but nobody gives a crap here.
Click to expand...
Matching a fellowship from a community program is difficult, as the fellowship match has gotten much more competitive in recent years, especially for things like Pulm/CC. You're more likely to end up at an academic medical center if you're a MD, and you're more likely to end up at a fellowship by a LONG shot if you went to an academic program. Using currently practicing physicians as an example isn't a great move, as thousands more DOs and US MDs have entered the pipeline, so things are MUCH more competitive than they were 5, 10, or 20 years ago. It's like those people who say, "Oh, but my cardiologist graduated from the Carib..." Yeah, sure, he did that in 1999. This is NOW.
 
calivianya said:
I don't see a significant difference in MD vs. DO as practicing physicians. Residency match is the only hurdle. A good DO friend of mine has been an adcom for several MD/residency/fellowship programs, has been faculty and taught at said programs, and is currently pulling well over $500k/year - mostly because he kills himself with overtime, but still. Considering that he's working in my preferred specialty working the exact shift I want to work, it's pretty hard for me to look down on a DO education.

I'm right there with you in valuing a cheaper education.
Click to expand...


You brush over the residency match issue as if it's nothing. For the more competive specialties and the better programs, that hurdle can be substantial or even insurmountable. No one who has the resume for MD and has those goals should simply opt for a DO school. There is still a snobbishness that exists within the better residency programs. Program Directors are protective of their programs' reputations. They fear if their doctors do not have US MD credentials, that their programs will criticized for not being able to attract US MDs.
 
calivianya said:
Doesn't seem like where you did your residency matters at all when it comes to actually working somewhere, in my observation of my local physician population.
Click to expand...

This is definitely wrong. Where you do your residency absolutely matters in terms of future job opportunities, regardless of where you are.
 
So this is probably a pretty stupid question, but I'm going to ask it anyways: is an "academic residency" simply any residency program that is affiliated with a medical school? Or are there more requirements?
 
calivianya said:
No Princetons, Yales, Dukes, Harvards, Stanfords, etc. for their MD programs either.
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Well, you won't be seeing any Princeton MDs anywhere. They're the unicorns of the medical world.

As for residency programs, there are probably some excellent programs you haven't heard of simply because you're not familiar with the hospital names associated with top schools and because some top programs are at hospitals that may not be associated with a highly-ranked med school.
 
PreMedMissteps said:
Well, you won't be seeing any Princeton MDs anywhere. They're the unicorns of the medical world.

As for residency programs, there are probably some excellent programs you haven't heard of simply because you're not familiar with the hospital names associated with top schools and because some top programs are at hospitals that may not be associated with a highly-ranked med school.
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There's a @Princeton Medical Student on this very forum. If you say his name three times, he might appear.
 
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