is there such thing as "not being smart enough for a carrer in medicine"?

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bsax007 said:
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Yes, there are people that aren't smart enough for med school.
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loganhayes said:
In medicine, persistance is key. Lots of memorization requires persistance... unless you have a photographic memory, which most of us don't. Intelligence obviously helps, but without persistance, I don't think any of us will get far.
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you know, firefox will check spelling for you
 
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student12x said:
If they were smart enough to get into college, then they should be smart enough to make it to med school. Given effort of course.
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Are you serious? You either go to a college full of geniuses or you only make friends with extremely smart people. If you think the average college student could make it into medical school, you are seriously deluded.
 
GoldShadow said:
Are you serious? You either go to a college full of geniuses or you only make friends with extremely smart people. If you think the average college student could make it into medical school, you are seriously deluded.
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Pretty much anyone can make it into med school. If you don't think so, you haven't seen some of the schools out there and who they're taking. Getting through med school is a different story though, I'm sure.
 
fisko82 said:
Pretty much anyone can make it into med school. If you don't think so, you haven't seen some of the schools out there and who they're taking. Getting through med school is a different story though, I'm sure.
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This is not true. Around 50% of applicants to US allopathic medical schools are admitted. Among those who matriculate, around 95% graduate medical school.

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/charts1982to2007.pdf

If you want to include Stewie Med School + Carib schools the number will be slightly bigger.

I know quite a few people from my undergrad who worked very hard and failed to get a single acceptance.

edit to add link.
 
fisko82 said:
Pretty much anyone can make it into med school. If you don't think so, you haven't seen some of the schools out there and who they're taking. Getting through med school is a different story though, I'm sure.
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If we are talking U.S., allopathic medical schools, then this is simply not true. (Hence the fact that 50% of applicants do not matriculate, and that almost all of these people did very well in college by most people's standards.) If you're referring to Carribean schools or DO schools, I will not argue with you simply because I don't know what their standards are, but I would be very surprised if your statement is anywhere near true.
 
fisko82 said:
Pretty much anyone can make it into med school.
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So why is the acceptance rate around 50%? There aren't enough seats to take everyone, so they reject those who aren't as qualified as the competition. Therefore, nowhere near "anyone" can get into med school.
 
Panda Bear said:
This is the conventional wisdom of many on SDN but it's not true.
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It's right on par with:

"Don't worry about your 3.1, just rock the MCAT and you'll be fine."
"The hard part is getting into med school."
"Med school material isn't hard, there's just a lot of it."
 
TheProwler said:
So why is the acceptance rate around 50%? There aren't enough seats to take everyone, so they reject those who aren't as qualified as the competition. Therefore, nowhere near "anyone" can get into med school.
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Because a lot of people choose not to go to (or even apply to) these types of schools or don't have the funds to go to the Carib? There are carib schools out there that simply want to make a profit and stay in existence; they'll take you so long as you're willing to fork up the cash. Whether you jump through the necessary hoops afterward is another story. But these are students in "med school" nonetheless. Cruise over to valuemd sometime and look at some of the admissions criteria for some schools. (Note: I said "pretty much anyone" also.)

But if you're thinking people with 20mcat/3.0gpas aren't getting into carib schools, I don't know what to tell you. Also, I think pretty much anyone capable of attending college can pull those kind of numbers. Or at least repeat the mcat till they're hitting a 20 on the mcat and take post-bacc classes till their gpa is ~3.0. Those students aren't getting into the big 4 in the carib, but they're capable of getting in somewhere so long as they have the money and the fortitude to go there (many don't). Hence, the 50% acceptance rate. Not everyone gets in where they want to get in, but I'm sure they could get in somewhere, provided they applied there.
 
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Pretty much anyone can make it into med school. If you don't think so, you haven't seen some of the schools out there and who they're taking. Getting through med school is a different story though, I'm sure.
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Wow, wrong on both counts. The idea that med school is easy to get into is completely wrong. The already less than 50% accept rate during the AMCAS process vastly understates the reject rate by not counting the huge percentage of people who start out premed and then get weeded out by the requirements. If you count every freshman who considers themselves a "premed" on their enterance survey the percentage that make it into med school is way less than 1% (at least at my school). Even if you just count the ones who get as far as the MCAT you´re looking at a much lower accept rate. I personally know many people who tried very, very hard, including post bac education, and didn´t make it in.

As for getting through med school, I´m gonna disagree with Prowler and say it´s way easier than getting in (at least in US Allo and DO, Carib has very high failout rates) That´s not to say that it´s easy, but it´s definitely less hard. Allo schools have greater than 95% grad rates for a reason: If you fail a class you get to retake it. If you fail a lot of classes you get to retake them and the school probably puts you on a 5 year schedule so you don´t need to take so many courses at once. If you fail boards you get multiple extra shots. I´ve never heard of someone failing out once they get to third year for anything but an honor violation. To not get in to medical school in the first place you really don´t need to screw up that much or that often. To get kicked out you need to screw up over, and over, and over again. Screwing up could definitely shunt you into Family practice (assuming you don´t want it), but you´ll end up a doctor.

But if you're thinking people with 20mcat/3.0gpas aren't getting into carib schools,
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Average MCAT for the Carib schools that actually allow you to practice in the US (there are 4 of them) is almost 30. No, they´re not taking 20/3.0 students, go read the Carib forums.
 
intuition said:
just wondering because as much as I want to become a doctor...I honestly don't feel smart enough, as evidenced by my grades:(:(
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all i have to say brah is that some of us arent gunners
bro made it to dental school bc he did well where it counted (DAT)...just kill the MCAT and get a reasonable gpa (3.0 at least)
btw, some of us arent meant for the books...bro wasnt (C's and B's in dental school) and he's a oral surgeon now...he has awesome technique so i donno...i like to believe that grades arent everything and there are so many distractions today that prevent us from getting straight A's (me its lost, the office, oogles amnts of movies hahahaha) btw, im going to be an awesome doctor bc i watch all of dat hahahaha

so cheer up, try to stick it out as long as you can until you make it to med school cuz maybe you'll find the niche that you'll excel in.
 
loganhayes said:
Grades are not an accurate indicator of intelligence. But the effort to get the grades probably is. For example, if you only study for one hour for a bio final exam yet still get a B, compared to those who study for 2 weeks and get an A, I must say you're pretty smart.

In medicine, persistance is key. Lots of memorization requires persistance... unless you have a photographic memory, which most of us don't. Intelligence obviously helps, but without persistance, I don't think any of us will get far.
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sooo true! i've noticed this myself. everybody has their particular strengths and weaknesses...but i think if we look at this big picture, a person who is going into medicine either for misguided financial reasons, family or otherwise and does NOT feel a connection with people ranks far lower on the intelligence totem pole, than someone who judges their academic merits on grades or whatnot.

And, when you think about it, what was the average age of most college freshman...17, 18? Let's remember that most of us were in fact "teenagers" when our college careers began and the grades became a part of our permanent record and maybe even our identity (ok, maybe speaking from a little bit of personal experience). Thinking back on it now, I had to show tremendous strength and inspire myself on a daily basis to make it through...

Anyway, I would like to think that I've grown a great deal because of my experiences in college, and that my academic strengths will reflect (and even improve) with this newfound maturity in medical school. Therefore, I think that if your intentions are good, you must have confidence and keep a positive attitude if you wish to be successful in this field.
 
premedrod said:
all i have to say brah is that some of us arent gunners
bro made it to dental school bc he did well where it counted (DAT)...just kill the MCAT and get a reasonable gpa (3.0 at least)
btw, some of us arent meant for the books...bro wasnt (C's and B's in dental school) and he's a oral surgeon now...he has awesome technique so i donno...i like to believe that grades arent everything and there are so many distractions today that prevent us from getting straight A's (me its lost, the office, oogles amnts of movies hahahaha) btw, im going to be an awesome doctor bc i watch all of dat hahahaha

so cheer up, try to stick it out as long as you can until you make it to med school cuz maybe you'll find the niche that you'll excel in.
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Wow, such optimistic naivete truly amazes me...
 
eikenhein said:
You would be deluded.
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You would be naive to admissions factors outside the US/Canadian borders.


Perrotfish said:
Average MCAT for the Carib schools that actually allow you to practice in the US (there are 4 of them) is almost 30. No, they´re not taking 20/3.0 students, go read the Carib forums.
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This statement is false, but I don't really care to waste any more of my time on this issue to prove it incorrect. (note: there are carib med schools that don't even require one taking the mcat to gain admissions ala Stewart). Thus, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Pat yourself on the back. You win. Have a good one.
 
Are you serious? You either go to a college full of geniuses or you only make friends with extremely smart people. If you think the average college student could make it into medical school, you are seriously deluded.
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Look goldshadow, my point is that the average doctor has about the same IQ as the average undergrad. Thus the average undergrad isn't limited by his/her innate intellect. And yes, I do mean the average college student CAN(as in its possible) make it into med school. Not that they will. Theres a big difference.
 
student12x said:
Look goldshadow, my point is that the average doctor has about the same IQ as the average undergrad. Thus the average undergrad isn't limited by his/her innate intellect. And yes, I do mean the average college student CAN(as in its possible) make it into med school. Not that they will. Theres a big difference.
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I honestly don't know what to say to that. I'm not sure how you can believe this.
 
Duh! Everybody knows you have to be superhuman to make it into medical school, because doctors are only the smartest people in the world, only second to the almighty pre-meds of course. That's why out of a group of 2000, only half a person makes it in. That's right, only below the waist.
 
Too lazy to read through this entire thread, but yeah, of course it's possible to be too dumb for a career in medicine. Half of the people I meet in my job are too dumb to manage a simple waitressing job.

The more contact you have with people outside of your undergrad, the more you realize how stupid or ridiculous or just plain batty the general population is.

Seriously, I've realized there's a reason the medical school interview exists, and you really don't have to be exceptionally witty or charming or engaging to get a high grade. You'd be surprised at how many weirdos there are out there....
 
Perrotfish said:
As for getting through med school, I´m gonna disagree with Prowler and say it´s way easier than getting in (at least in US Allo and DO, Carib has very high failout rates) That´s not to say that it´s easy, but it´s definitely less hard. Allo schools have greater than 95% grad rates for a reason: If you fail a class you get to retake it.
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Strongly disagree. Most people graduate because they take people who will probably graduate, but it was much easier for me to get into med school than it has been to do well in med school. I did quite well on the MCAT with only a moderate amount of studying, and I'd get a score like a 99% on gen chem exam with an average of 55%. Now, it takes an immense amount of studying just to score the average on a med school exam. I think you're propagating a myth that does a disservice to incoming M1s. All of my classmates laugh with me as we think about when we used to think that the hard part was getting in.
 
^^^
True, but things are always portrayed as "super hard" before you get there. Smart people rise to the occasion. If you were able to successfully adapt to organic chemistry in undergrad, chances are good you'll adapt to the workload in med school too. Or at least, that's what I keep telling myself ;)
 
My friend teaches Philosophy to juniors and seniors in high school in the Bronx. Over 90% of the class cannot read.

I think a lot of people have a gross misinterpretation of the general public's intelligence level. That's not to say everyone doesn't have the mental capacity to make it to medical school throughout childhood, but socially, a large proportion of our population gets handicapped for any variety of reasons and does not make the cut. It's unfortunate, but the truth. There's a reason employment surveys consistent demonstrate the physician workbase has one of (note: one of) the highest IQ averages out there.

Anecdotally, I am amazed at the intelligence of my peers in medical school. A physician once told me he didn't feel dumb until he got to medical school. I can see why.
 
Booooo, booooo to this lame thread. Booooo to the douche that created it. BOOOOO to all of us bored losers that responded.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by student12x
Look goldshadow, my point is that the average doctor has about the same IQ as the average undergrad. Thus the average undergrad isn't limited by his/her innate intellect. And yes, I do mean the average college student CAN(as in its possible) make it into med school. Not that they will. Theres a big difference.

I honestly don't know what to say to that. I'm not sure how you can believe this.
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Then point me to the data indicating that doctors higher IQs than the average undergrad. Again, both have an IQ average around 120.

There's a reason employment surveys consistent demonstrate the physician workbase has one of (note: one of) the highest IQ averages out there.
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Which is?

From what I have read, doctors have on average an IQ of 120. Respectable, but nothing to be ecstatic about.
 
student12x said:
Then point me to the data indicating that doctors higher IQs than the average undergrad. Again, both have an IQ average around 120.

From what I have read, doctors have on average an IQ of 120. Respectable, but nothing to be ecstatic about.
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Actually, I highly suspect that your facts are incorrect. I just read 2 sources that said that the average college student has an IQ of 112, and one said the avg physician's IQ was 130, the other said 126. I must confess that these were just random webpages I found in a google search that didn't seem like the most reliable of sources, so I'm looking for better ones...(At work, nothing esle to do)
 
intuition said:
just wondering because as much as I want to become a doctor...I honestly don't feel smart enough, as evidenced by my grades:(:(
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No. If you are not smart enough, you wouldn't be here asking for advices. You might not be putting in enough efforts. Are you a slacker?:confused:
 
^^ Okay, so I'm tired of googling. I came up with multiple sources that said the average med student/physician (depending on the source) has an avg. IQ of anywhere between 125 and 130.

I found multiple sources saying the average college graduate (not student, if it makes a difference to anyone) has an average IQ of 112, and several other sources said 115. I must also confess I found a couple of sources that said 120.

So, let's assume IQ of college grad = 115, IQ of physician = 125. While I do think that that's a relatively significant difference, I must agree with your argument that an IQ of 115 would probably not prevent a very driven person from entering medical school or being a doctor.

That being said, I think that from my experience, there are probably many many people in colleges across the nation with IQs around 100, and I think these people probably would be hard-pressed to get into med school. If you think about it, the average person can probably make good enough grades in high school and perform well-enough on a standardized test to get into college. Many do. Therefore, many colleges are full of people with IQs around 100 or even slightly less, (probably not significantly less.) However, when you calculate the average IQ of a college grad, you are not only including all of these people, but you're including the many who go on to be PhDs, Pharmacists, Doctors, Lawyers, engineers, etc. Many of these will have IQs of 130, 140, even higher.

Bottom line, what you're saying, (a person with a 115 IQ, which is the average college grad), can get into medical school, is correct. But I think that Goldshadow has a good point, if he slightly altered his wording. I think he would be correct to say that there are many people in college, and even college grads who probably could not get into med school, no matter how hard they worked.
 
SaveThisLabRat said:
Duh! Everybody knows you have to be superhuman to make it into medical school, because doctors are only the smartest people in the world, only second to the almighty pre-meds of course. That's why out of a group of 2000, only half a person makes it in. That's right, only below the waist.
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Very true. Now get my meds and do my bidding, pill-jockey.
 
brianmartin said:
^^^
True, but things are always portrayed as "super hard" before you get there. Smart people rise to the occasion. If you were able to successfully adapt to organic chemistry in undergrad, chances are good you'll adapt to the workload in med school too. Or at least, that's what I keep telling myself ;)
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Navy SEALS adapt to the workload as well, but that doesn't mean it's not one of the hardest things the world to do. Like I said, they won't admit you if they don't think it's very likely that you'll graduate.
 
TheProwler said:
Strongly disagree. Most people graduate because they take people who will probably graduate, but it was much easier for me to get into med school than it has been to do well in med school. I did quite well on the MCAT with only a moderate amount of studying, and I'd get a score like a 99% on gen chem exam with an average of 55%. Now, it takes an immense amount of studying just to score the average on a med school exam. I think you're propagating a myth that does a disservice to incoming M1s. All of my classmates laugh with me as we think about when we used to think that the hard part was getting in.
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I think that you and perrotfish would probably both agree that you work much harder in medical school than you probably worked as a pre-med...therefore, med school is harder. And you'd probably also agree that the liklihood of failure is higher for a pre-med trying to get into med school than for a med student. The average pre-med is less likely to get into med school in the first place, than he is to flunk out once he gets there. (Hence the 95% graduation rate in med school, vs the 50% matriculation rate to med school.) I think you said it best when you said that they just take people who are more likely to succeed...but this doesn't make success easier to come by, it just makes it more likely.
 
Folks, it takes nothing to get into a college. Sure, there are some elite universities and private colleges that can afford to be extremely selective but for the majority, the number one imperative is to maintain an uninterrupted flow of federal financial aid into their ravenous bureaucratic maws. Matriculant quality is of secondary concern. Some universities like Grambling, just three miles down the road from my hometown of Ruston, Louisiana overtly troll the nation for students who can barely read or write and provide them with a low-quality education in exchange for free federal dollars. My own alma mater has only slightly better admission standards and takes just about anybody who applies, shunting them into bogus degree tracks like psychology or sociology.
 
People are getting very loose with the term "IQ" here. IQ measures a discrete set of abilities, none of which can be thought to reliably represent complex medical decision making, or intelligence in general. And to equate IQ with "intelligence" is useless without a definition of intelligence.

As an example, the ability to solve a Rubix cube really fast does not mean you'll be a good doctor, or that you are more "intelligent". However it may mean you have a high IQ score (spatial reasoning, pattern recognition).

Another problem - people with mental ******ation often have very low IQ scores, but then turn out to have very high ability in one or a few specific abilities such as memory, spatial reasoning, etc. How would you assign a general "intelligence" to such a person?

What if there was a savant with an IQ of 80, who could not interact with people, but had such a good memory and visual reasoning that they could be the best radiologist ever?
 
Timmythemic22 said:
Very true. Now get my meds and do my bidding, pill-jockey.
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I don't know who you're referring to as a pill-jockey, Timmy, but I'm a blood-thirsty pre-med and I will only save my slave-girl antics for when I'm getting my attending coffee and other forms of nutrition.

I wear the suit of a pre-pharm so nobody sees me coming.
 
brianmartin said:
People are getting very loose with the term "IQ" here. IQ measures a discrete set of abilities, none of which can be thought to reliably represent complex medical decision making, or intelligence in general. And to equate IQ with "intelligence" is useless without a definition of intelligence.

As an example, the ability to solve a Rubix cube really fast does not mean you'll be a good doctor, or that you are more "intelligent". However it may mean you have a high IQ score (spatial reasoning, pattern recognition).

Another problem - people with mental ******ation often have very low IQ scores, but then turn out to have very high ability in one or a few specific abilities such as memory, spatial reasoning, etc. How would you assign a general "intelligence" to such a person?

What if there was a savant with an IQ of 80, who could not interact with people, but had such a good memory and visual reasoning that they could be the best radiologist ever?
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I wouldn't sweat it too much, this is just your standard pre-meds solving the problems of the world thread.
 
Most of you aren't smart enough to get into medical school.
 
GreenShirt said:
There's different types of intelligence. Some people are very talented in the humanities while others excel at the sciences, for example. Medicine requires the later type of intelligence. If you find that science classes are your weakness, you may be able to get through medical school by brut force work, but you may be happier doing something that taps into your talents.
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What about math? I am very good in science but I am not good in math... It's not that I am bad at it I just don't enjoy it as much as I enjoy my science classes.
 
Advanced math is kind of like advanced philosophy.

Except that advanced math is difficult and mostly beneficial to society.
 
My name is William James Sidis and I have an estimated IQ of 250-300. Beat that, all you slow and low 130 IQ people. Lol jk. But seriously, look that guy up...william james sidis.
 
Average IQ in America: 105
Average IQ of doctors: 128

Yes, you need to be quite a bit above average intelligence to be a doctor. Sorry PC crowd, the truth will defeat you as usual. ;)
 
Actually most recently I heard the average American IQ is down to 98.
Sweden its 112. A trip to find my smart wife might be in order.

IQ is a touchy one though. Lot like BMI, most of the time it doesn't tell the whole or true story.
 
Not all doctors are science geniuses which sounds like what you're getting at. There could very well be people who know all the sciences in and out but don't have a lick of common sense, people skills, empathy, compassion, etc. Trust me, look around your classes and you'll see. So just chill and work through it
 
ZagDoc said:
Actually most recently I heard the average American IQ is down to 98.
Sweden its 112. A trip to find my smart wife might be in order.
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Or you could just start on the campus of any good American university. Let's not forget that we have the best universities in the world, even if our average person is not so smart. I bet the average IQ at MIT/Stanford or even at some larger public universities such as Berkeley/UVA/UNC is a lot higher than 112. The airfare is a lot cheaper to get there, too!

IQ is a touchy one though. Lot like BMI, most of the time it doesn't tell the whole or true story.
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I agree with this. Not to mention that any one person's IQ can appear to fluctuate widely depending on which IQ test is taken.
 
Or how they felt when they took the IQ test.

Or whether or not a butterfly flapped its wings in Belize that day.
 
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