Is this leadership experience...?
Started by wjs010
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The vast majority of pre-med leadership (leading a club) is complete bull****. Unless money or lives are on the line, leadership is absolutely meaningless because one's success or failure as a leader has absolutely no affect. Do what everyone else does and play the game.
it is a load of crap if you are just doing stuff to fill up your resume and i think this is probably easily apparent to adcoms
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There should be an "if" before this sentence. Believe it or not some people don't grudgingly do ECs just "to play the med school game". I only really have 2 major EC's (minus shadowing) but they are all things I actually care about and enjoy being a part of. Of course I know that they build my resume, but I genuinely do enjoy them and intend to play some role in similar groups in the future.
i believe you misunderstood me. isn't this was exactly what i was saying?
oh trust me I'm definitely playing the game. Pre med leadership makes no sense...I think its far more impressive to take a full load of school and pay bills while obtaining a B.S. than to do some other things that don't really show any real world experience...I mean, I wish all that was required was shadowing hours...because that actually does look good and relate to what you want to achieve, eventually. All of these other EC's have zero bearing on my future as a MS or physician. congrats to those who do enjoy what they do though.
wow, you sound incredibly snotty. look, they aren't all looking to see if you lead some life saving mission in africa or lead some state political party. they are just trying to see if you took some sort of initiative to start something or 'lead' a team for some kind of achievement. this is probably very important as your progress through your medical career or in fact any career. i am sure schools consider this attribute very important since it is always nice that a president of so and so organization was a graduate of so and so school. not only that, you learn a lot as a leader and all those achievement that you speak of such as working and going to school and getting into med school, guess what? majority of people on here have done that plus more. so try to get some solid experience and try to learn what you can from it instead of bitching
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Pretty interesting that the folks complaining about leadership experience are the people that need it the most. Both personally and professionally.
Snotty is a good start. I'd use words like liar, cheat, brat...if I said things like that. Which I don't.
Snotty is a good start. I'd use words like liar, cheat, brat...if I said things like that. Which I don't.
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Leadership is stupid. Deal with it.
If it is why are you even bother ing with this route? You don't think bring a doc is leading the patients? Without a developed leadership philosophy how are ypu going to lead the patients?
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I agree with zoners ideals on leading patients, we will also need to be competent leaders in order to effectively run our clinics and manage our staff. Having said that, there are some specialties where leadership will be less necessary. However, more often than not you will have someone working underneath you.
Staff leadership for those in clinics and private practice. Patient leadership and social skills for the highly confident (some say argumentative) baby-boomer population. Operating room leadership. Teaching and assisting rotation students as a resident.
The capabilities of a resident (and future attendings) directly applies to the quality of intern rotation quality, audition and interview specifics, and hence...match rates.
Osteopathy didn't raise it's standards to that of allo by accepting corner-cutters and people "playing the game". They know the difference. You can play the supplemental. You can play the essay and the surveys, things on paper. But studies have shown that student interviewers (and students leading the campus tours and lunches) quickly identify elevated egos and fakes.
Students just don't want those people around them. They don't help study groups. Create unnecessary drama. Don't help with scut work. Lower the school's board scores and reputation and match rates. Generally, lowering the quality of education.
Many schools, especially the older and more conservative places, actively seek a certain number of alpha leaders, for these reasons. Leadership (or at least the potential) is HUGE. And you can't fake it to make it.
It's why they like "quiet confidence" that everyone talks about. It shows you can lead by example and integrity, instead of cockiness and general idiocy like a schoolyard bully. It's not quantum physics -it's things we've known since kindergarten!
A quality leader knows when to stay in the background, when his/her skills aren't necessary. A cheat will simply stand behind everyone and complain when things don't benefit him directly. Case in point.
Hell, if you don't believe me...call them!
Ask them if they like students that publically complain about standard, proven admission qualities. Call THEM up and tell them your opinion. Hell, you're telling it to your future peers.
Personally, I don't want to find myself in the same room as someone that thinks they're better than 15,000 applicants simply because they've paid their phone bill.
In my opinion, a statement like "playing the game" should lead to a forum ban, with IP tracking to block reading threads and articles. Before such people use the forum data to educate themselves. Instead of rewarding cheats and liars.
The capabilities of a resident (and future attendings) directly applies to the quality of intern rotation quality, audition and interview specifics, and hence...match rates.
Osteopathy didn't raise it's standards to that of allo by accepting corner-cutters and people "playing the game". They know the difference. You can play the supplemental. You can play the essay and the surveys, things on paper. But studies have shown that student interviewers (and students leading the campus tours and lunches) quickly identify elevated egos and fakes.
Students just don't want those people around them. They don't help study groups. Create unnecessary drama. Don't help with scut work. Lower the school's board scores and reputation and match rates. Generally, lowering the quality of education.
Many schools, especially the older and more conservative places, actively seek a certain number of alpha leaders, for these reasons. Leadership (or at least the potential) is HUGE. And you can't fake it to make it.
It's why they like "quiet confidence" that everyone talks about. It shows you can lead by example and integrity, instead of cockiness and general idiocy like a schoolyard bully. It's not quantum physics -it's things we've known since kindergarten!
A quality leader knows when to stay in the background, when his/her skills aren't necessary. A cheat will simply stand behind everyone and complain when things don't benefit him directly. Case in point.
Hell, if you don't believe me...call them!
Ask them if they like students that publically complain about standard, proven admission qualities. Call THEM up and tell them your opinion. Hell, you're telling it to your future peers.
Personally, I don't want to find myself in the same room as someone that thinks they're better than 15,000 applicants simply because they've paid their phone bill.
In my opinion, a statement like "playing the game" should lead to a forum ban, with IP tracking to block reading threads and articles. Before such people use the forum data to educate themselves. Instead of rewarding cheats and liars.
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i think in the med school process leadership is looked at like marriage. marriage indicates that someone else can stand to be around you. leadership indicates you were able to convince some number of people you knew what you were doing and get them to follow you. i dont think either make or break you, but they say something about you.
Exactly.
But, it certainly can (and does) make or break you. Otherwise, why interview?
You don't marry someone without dating first.
And these admission committees aren't blithering idiots that you can gloss over, even if you've learned to with the normal populace. Med school is like the hot girl that everyone hits on. Thousands of applicants each season. They know, by now, what they like and how to spot it.
They're not infallible. They accept a number of poor applicants, who filter out when forced to live up to their words. But each one represents lost tuition, and a seat that could have gone to someone more deserving. They know it, and they HATE it. They take active steps to get better, like reading this forum and identifying member names.
A PCOM admissions director told me, verbatim, that their background check includes an IP address trace, at CIA level. They carry court orders to request phone log data, including text. And they actively pose as students here on the forum.
And if you "play the game" well enough, you get to face the student body.
But, it certainly can (and does) make or break you. Otherwise, why interview?
You don't marry someone without dating first.
And these admission committees aren't blithering idiots that you can gloss over, even if you've learned to with the normal populace. Med school is like the hot girl that everyone hits on. Thousands of applicants each season. They know, by now, what they like and how to spot it.
They're not infallible. They accept a number of poor applicants, who filter out when forced to live up to their words. But each one represents lost tuition, and a seat that could have gone to someone more deserving. They know it, and they HATE it. They take active steps to get better, like reading this forum and identifying member names.
A PCOM admissions director told me, verbatim, that their background check includes an IP address trace, at CIA level. They carry court orders to request phone log data, including text. And they actively pose as students here on the forum.
And if you "play the game" well enough, you get to face the student body.
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you are the one trying to make your application superior by claiming participation is some club is some form of leadership. others are just giving their opinions on why schools might like to see it
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You are not your brother.
By referencing him, you betray his leadership status in your family.
What quality made him decide to undertake something so difficult, while you were sitting around judging fat people? Perhaps he taught himself by leading YOU.
Perhaps people like me made him Chief, to make him learn some responsibility.
As far as "belly aching" and "playing the game"...
I was a leader in the front-line combat group that received a Presidential citation, in person. A U.S. President shook my hand and called me a living embodiment of leadership and integrity, along with my brothers that made it back.
I have led better men than myself to pick up landminds with their bare hands and smiles on their faces.
So, who exactly is belly aching? 😡
You've had your chance to prove yourself, just like everyone else. Don't cry because you wasted it. You could have gone to Africa for a summer with the Peace Corps. You could have helped in Haiti a few years ago. You could have taught CPR at the Red Cross. Own up to it and do something to improve yourself. You don't have to be Superman, just pick something and try to make the world a better place.
If you led an aerobics group, well then... what did you do with it? Besides sit around judging fat people that signed up for the class to better themselves.
AFA the background checks: they're pretty expensive.
A state driving record is only $15. Criminal checks are a little more. Higher level checks are significantly more, but pretty simple to order. The person alluded to it being standard, but it could be more of a special tool. No one really knows.
Its not always necessary if they just follow the forum and put together who you are. A lady in admissions said she was fairly proficient at it. Said she spends a large part of her day, this time of year, with a file in one hand and a keyboard in the other.
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Treating or counseling one patient is not being a leader, nor is coordinating the care of several patients at once.
I lead small teams at work. It sucks.
