Is this the end of PSLF?

Discussion in 'Pharmacy' started by BMBiology, May 19, 2017.

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  1. BMBiology

    BMBiology temporarily banned~! 10+ Year Member

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  3. Digsbe

    Digsbe 5+ Year Member

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    Student loans are not credit card debt or bank debt, the gov sees them as a profit and likely isn't going to cut themselves at a loss. Student loans aren't as special as people who blew money on TV's or banks giving out bad loans.
     
  4. owlegrad

    owlegrad Uncontrollable Sarcasm Machine Staff Member SDN Administrator 7+ Year Member

    If that isn't a click bait title, I don't know what is. Besides didn't we already have a thread or two about this?

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  5. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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    Jesus jones not another "PSLF is dead" article. Obama tried to cap it, there's been like umpteen bills in the senate trying to get rid of it, just add this to the pile.

    Didn't Trump say he was going to repeal and replace Obamacare, too? :laugh:

    :yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn:

    (okay eventually they will scrap it and give EVERYONE loan forgiveness, one day...some day... at some point)
     
  6. BMBiology

    BMBiology temporarily banned~! 10+ Year Member

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    I think it is a mistake to underestimate this presidency and what they are willing to do.

    When Obama proposed capping forgiveness @ $59.5 k, why didn't the GOP accept it? Because they figure they would get a better deal under a republican presidency.

    Debt doesn't just disappear. It gets passed on. If you are not paying for it, then the general public will. Let's not forget 70% of Americans don't even have an undergraduate degree and you are expecting them to pay for your MD, PharmD, JD, MBA? It is not going to happen.


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    Last edited: May 20, 2017
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  7. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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    Yes. Why should I think otherwise? Tax payers subsidize mortgages, property tax, children, the roads I drive on, my education, my solar panels, my donations to churches and museums, etc... I'm taking advantage of a government subsidy no different than any other company.

    I'm a bit sanguine...Trump's proposal would cost a lot more over time. He's proposing 12.5% @ 20yrs/30yrs for EVERYONE. Public servants/non profit employers lose but it solves it for the rest of my peers. I can live with that.


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  8. GypsyHummus

    GypsyHummus 5+ Year Member

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    Trump is proposing 12.5% interest on government loans? That would be a lot.

    I have a question for every pharmacist, Why can't people outside of California and New York just live off of 20K/year and pay the rest to their student loans?

    If a pharmacist is making 120K/year, that is like 80K after taxes. If you are single, Take 20K/year to live and you can sock away 60K per year to the loans. If you graduated with 200K in loans, you would be done in 4 years time, even less if you have a spouse that works. Seems like a delayed gratification response to freak out and panic.
     
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  9. BMBiology

    BMBiology temporarily banned~! 10+ Year Member

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    When you started pharmacy school, PSLF didn't even exist. When your monthly payment got more generous from 15% (IBR) to 10% (PAYE), I am sure you didn't have a problem with that...did you? So why are you complaining now? You had your fun..now it is time for you to put some money back into the system.

    I get it. You want to take advantage of the system set up by the government to help teachers, police, fireman, etc. But that is the risk you decided to take. 12.5% for 30 years is fair right?


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  10. lord999

    lord999 Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    I'd beg to differ. Think about how the Servicemen's Readjustment Act (aka GI Bill) worked out. Part of it is to keep a bunch of soldiers from overloading the labor market too quickly, part of it is that former soldiers make good training risks (if they survived A school, university is a joke). The government could care less about the collective debt due to the way we collateralize it on everyone's future. (That wasn't meant to be comforting.)

    The real question for the government (and really the only meaningful one) is whether or not the policy objectives for loan forgiveness were achieved? Did the civil service and nonprofits get far better people than they would have otherwise had without the program? We all think so, but was it worth the cost? Could we have done better with just giving a bunch of tax breaks. Republicans like me would prefer tax breaks to forgiveness under usual circumstances.

    But no, they are not going to cut off for ones who are qualified already. It's a guaranteed lawsuit win for the plaintiffs. However, in terms of making it hard to qualify for or making the paperwork all screwy or charging you in back taxes, that's the way the benefit gets erased without actually erasing it.

    That said, the talk in DC right now is there's a low limit to how much public servants at the federal level can get screwed over, because if it went down like Reagan's reforms, the elected officials will have a recalcitrant civil service on their hands again that took them over 15 years and massive expenditures in contracting to overcome. We're still paying for the legacy of "New Government" through the nose.

    PAYE and REPAYE were not even options when I graduated and tuition was cheap enough that you could work it off in a summer fairly easily. The old financial advice of one never taking more debt than they can realistically pay off themselves without help still applies even with a government program.
     
  11. BMBiology

    BMBiology temporarily banned~! 10+ Year Member

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    I think it is 12.5% income for 15 years for undergraduates and for 30 years for graduates. I think that is fair. A pharmacist working at Cedars Sinai in Beverly Hills should not have his loans forgiven while a pharmacist slaving away at CVS gets to pay the full amount.



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  12. Charcoales

    Charcoales 5+ Year Member

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    Payment is only like ~300 a month instead of 1500 a month with IBR not too bad.
     
  13. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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    No 12.5% is the percent of income used to calculate repayment. Right now it's 10% (or 15% if you're on an older version and didn't switch).

    And to answer your question...leverage. Why should I buy a house now vs. just living off $20k a year and saving up to pay cash? Because the economic conditions, laws, and tax policy often favor leveraging. Same reason why taking out student loans is a better economic option than saving $120,000 cash to pay for tuition.


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  14. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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    PSLF existed in 2007, 1 year before I entered pharmacy school.

    Hey if tax rates go down, do people complain? Nope.

    And I'm not complaining, I'm stating that a change to a 12.5%/20 and 30 Trump program will take from me but give to all my indebted peers. I can stomach that, but when I say it'll "cost more" I say it will cost the government more...because CVS slaves will get forgiveness now, in addition to Kaiser employees.

    And yes, I made a calculated risk. The jury is still out, and I still think you'll owe me a beer after this.


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  15. pharmd2017yasssss

    pharmd2017yasssss

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    Pslf made no sense from a pharmacist standpoint. Kaiser pharmacists are one of the most highly paid and they qualify for plsf? Its not like the kaiser positioks are hurting to fill the positions. Its super competitive to get. But your cvs pharmacist? They work so much harder, work less and have to pay the entire loan through paye with a tax bomb.
     
  16. gwarm01

    gwarm01 7+ Year Member

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    That's true for Kaiser, but on the east coast I started out at 90k working for a non-profit hospital. 90k is definitely not struggle territory, but it was a 30k/yr reduction in starting salary just because I wanted to work in peds.
     
  17. npage148

    npage148 Senior Member 10+ Year Member

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    Seriously, how much debt are people graduating with to qualify for these adjusted repayment policies. I graduated with 80k and even as the only working body in a 3 person household I don't even come close. Standard repayment plan is not really a struggle
     
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  18. Zelda840

    Zelda840 2+ Year Member

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    I don't think 80k of debt for both undergrad and pharmacy school is realistic for most people.
     
  19. BMBiology

    BMBiology temporarily banned~! 10+ Year Member

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    A fix would be...require sites to apply for loan forgiveness like H1 visa program. So Kaiser, although it is a "non-profit" would not qualify for obvious reasons while pharmacists working at the Indian Health Services (IHS) would qualify.

    I don't think the vast majority of people are against loan forgiveness. However, they want to make sure their money is being spent wisely and fairly.

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  20. lord999

    lord999 Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    The deal's changed so much. This isn't our generation's problem. The current generation's average debt is $160k, with a high average at UCSF of $230k (and UMN not that much less). That's not terribly burdensome except for the spouse, 2.2 children, and the white picket fence, and then they see their average plumber and electrician be able to provide a higher standard of living then they themselves can provide without the life skills of our parents' generation. And if I remember correctly, npage did a PhD at poverty rates (certainly NIH pre-Doc stipends qualify you for food stamps in most states). @Zelda840 , @npage148 of all people could justify having higher debt than that, so it's not unrealistic to hold debt levels to <$100k if they really are living at poverty wages. But have you been in student housing lately? The rec center? I joke that my students have a better quality of life than we faculty do.

    @BMBiology, this fairness issue isn't viewed as a substantial problem internally in government and definitely the pharmacy market is irrelevant to them. It's a problem specifically for pharmacy as non-profit pay rates caught up with chain pharmacies, which really was not the case even a decade ago. Kaiser used to have major problems recruiting and retaining, so they've actually had to up their game to even get reasonable people to work for them although now that there's an overage, they're trying to screw everyone out of the benefits package.

    Most people think VA when they think about federal civil service, but I can assure you that the majority of pharmacists do not work for VA, they work for either the uniformed services (which pays astonishingly stingy rates even given their benefits package) or HHS with the General Schedule pay is about 20-30% less than the prevailing wage everywhere else. VA's pay had to go up substantially due to how bad the conditions were (and are) comparatively to a normal hospital. The majority of state civil service plans (including academic) pays beneath the General Schedule such that I can't understand at times why anyone would work for them besides an easy job.

    So, pay, fairness, and all that other philosophical crap aside, a benefits program should be taken advantage of for legitimate purposes. If it meant that one has to structure their life to take advantage of it, so be it. The risk of structuring a life for that program is always whether or not there is enough political will to see the program through to get the payoffs. We'll protect our own though. We are monitoring the situation, because in case DoE doesn't pay, Title 38 (VA) and Title 42 (HHS) will assume that responsibility for our own. It always has, and our stautory authority allows us to spend discretionary funds on this and we will.

    The curious question is whether benign neglect will see this program through, or the Boomers screw the Millenials again through the program being neutered for future attainments. Elections have consequences, and any dependence on the government for any reason, politics is the price you have to pay for that dependence. Otherwise, how many of us knowing how it's turned out wouldn't become TANF/LIHEAP/FS recipients? You wonder if the addicts have it right in the end, that it doesn't matter.
     
  21. npage148

    npage148 Senior Member 10+ Year Member

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    I guess I didn't realize how much the game has changed in 10 years. I figured that the people graduating with 150-250k were people doing 4 year BS and then going into one of those predatory new pharmacy schools. My 80k-ish was full tuition and room for 2 years pre-charm and then 4 years of pharmacy school (albeit at a state school). I did roll into a PhD program making 35k but I supplemented with weekend pharmacy work and my wife was working at that point so I probably had it off better than a bunch of the domestic grad students and my loans were deferred too. I never looked into any aid, i didn't need it to live a lifestyle I was comfortable with. Though I bailed on academia after a post-doc and some failed grants and went to retail and moved to vacationland (much to the chagrin of my advisor). Academia money even as faculty was depressing until you were 10+years in, tenured and at least an associate professor.

    I support free or heavily subsidized colleges, I'm a fan of new York's plan for free state school; and I have no issues with forgiving loans of people doing public service work, armed forces, high need job (mostly as a carrot to draw people because the salaries suck)

    But I have a tougher time swallowing these adjusted repayment plans for regular professionals who going in to "regular" jobs. I'm not sure I'm a fan of subsidizing preditory private school tuition to that extent. But in the end I'm not that concerned with continuing the program's becaue it's small potatoes and more education the better in general
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
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  22. lord999

    lord999 Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    In case you're wondering what a "deal" it is now. For 04 to 12, UNM (New Mexico) went from $6k to $18k. Purdue went from $6k to $20k, Kentucky from $8k to $22k since the time I graduated which still was an era where most did not have an undergraduate degree prior except for UCSF (too competitive) and UMN (by design). So, $70k tuition alone for pharmacy school + ~$40k tuition alone for undergrad makes for a lot of obligation to even be in the game. And this game isn't always a good one for most grads. It's certainly no longer the case where you can Mommy track a third of the graduates as they are in too much debt to leave.

    Oh, and it doesn't get any better when you tenure. That's why I joined the darkside and only use a IAA to work outside.
     
  23. npage148

    npage148 Senior Member 10+ Year Member

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    Yeah, that's bonkers. I never would have gone at those rates, probably would have done something engineering
     
  24. Gombrich12

    Gombrich12 2+ Year Member

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    PSLF being capped or eliminated will happen with certainty, I'm more interested in seeing if Lamar Alexander gets his way and GradPLUS loans are capped or completely eliminated.
     
  25. rxdawg21

    rxdawg21 2+ Year Member

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    My p1 year was 13.5 and p4 was 18k (really 24k including the extra summer semester) at a state school. Also my state changed the academic merit scholarship and didn't grandfather anyone in and that made me pay an extra year i hadn't planned. Ridiculous really and cost me about 20k in extra loans. Not to mention Obamacare axing subsidized loans for grad students
     
  26. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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  27. BenJammin

    BenJammin No Apologies 5+ Year Member

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    PSLF is garbage. Why can't you pay up like the rest of us?
     
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  28. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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    Renters say the same thing to home buyers.

    I seek out and adjust my behavior maximize the applicable tax codes & government laws to my benefit and reduce my financial liabilities accordingly. I'm not responsible, nor should I be responsible, for anyone else's displeasure with the statutes or financial position vis-a-vis these laws in effect.

    Like, I don't like the carried interest provision, but it's there. So to answer your question, why can't I pay up like the rest of you? Because I don't have to.
     
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  29. BenJammin

    BenJammin No Apologies 5+ Year Member

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    Well hopefully those promises are broken and the rules are changed. What do you say to that?
     
  30. BenJammin

    BenJammin No Apologies 5+ Year Member

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    It just really grinds my gears that other people didn't make the same financially sound decisions I made and they end up getting what is essentially a bailout while both of us work the same job and have the same salary.
     
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  31. pezdispenser

    pezdispenser 10+ Year Member

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    So will it increase to 12.5% of your income, even if you are on PSLF to get forgiven after 10 years, since Trump wants that to be the only repayment plan?
     
  32. msweph

    msweph 2+ Year Member

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    Totally agree dude
     
  33. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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    Is failure to account for and take advantage of an available program a sound financial decision?

    I mean, it's not a total loss. You get to feel better about yourself, not worry about legislative changes x 10 years, and claim moral superiority in this zero sum game.


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  34. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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    No, all loans originated after 7/1/2018 would be subject to the 12.5%/15 or 30 year forgiveness plan. The call with Ed Dept also threw in clarification about people completing their course of study...meaning (like the Rubio-Warner bill) if you took out your first loan before 7/1/2018, you have the option of picking which program you want.

    But this is the Trump budget proposal, which has about a zero percent chance of being enacted in whole (but these provisions might make it in).


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  35. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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  36. hurx

    hurx 2+ Year Member

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    Out of curiosity, are the people who are so angry about PSLF also angry about other forms of loan forgiveness (i.e. IHS loan forgiveness, loan forgiveness for teachers in low income areas, state specific loan forgiveness, etc)?


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  37. awval999

    awval999 New Member 10+ Year Member

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    The biggest risk for current PSLF borrowers is that the forgiveness becomes taxable.

    They really can't just "end" it for current borrowers. It's literally written into the MPNs.
     
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  38. Sine Cura

    Sine Cura 10 seconds or less 7+ Year Member

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    PSLF is a failure at meeting its policy objectives.
     
  39. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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    It's the exact same discussion regarding high income earners utilizing the mortgage interest tax deduction. The arguments for that (I'll post some extensive articles later) mirror PSLF in that a) high income people will buy houses regardless of tax policy, so you're giving people money for something they were going to do anyway and b) it encourages over-borrowing by subsidizing the cost of a mortgage, distorting the real estate market.

    Replace mortgage and real estate with student loans and pharmacy, and it's literally the exact same arguments and defense by those who use it.


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  40. Niosh

    Niosh 7+ Year Member

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    I think most PSLF pharmacists are capable of paying off their student loans given the average debt and salaries. But why should they not take advantage of programs that are available to them? Simply to please those who aren't eligible?
     
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  41. BenJammin

    BenJammin No Apologies 5+ Year Member

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    You're missing the point. It's not an upsetting thing that I am not eligible, it's upsetting that other people ARE eligible. Why are we rewarding financial ignorance? Debt doesn't magically disappear and I'm not sure why I should be subsidizing the poor choices of my colleagues. Why is a student with $280k in debt being treated differently from a student with $80k in debt? Why is the former getting these loans in the first place?
     
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  42. 68PGunner

    68PGunner 5+ Year Member

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    Loan forgiveness through PSLF is not taxable.
     
  43. BMBiology

    BMBiology temporarily banned~! 10+ Year Member

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    Not exactly. Mortgage interest rate deduction is open to everyone while PSLF is mainly for students who over borrowed vs. salary and place the responsibility of the loan to tax payers.


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  44. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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    Nope, mortgage interest deduction is only open to people who purchases houses with a mortgage to the extent that it exceeds their standard deduction.

    Because of this, it is argued that the mortgage interest deduction encourages over borrowing.

    The counter argument of "well then buy a house to take advantage" can be lumped together with "well then go to graduate school" in that both are functionally out of reach for many people.

    C'mon guys, tax and appropriations are rigged to take from one group and give to another. It's a zero sum game.

    Take away my PSLF and I'll get butt hurt, give me PSLF and you'll get butt hurt. It's just one big game of "pass the butt hurt."


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  45. BMBiology

    BMBiology temporarily banned~! 10+ Year Member

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    If someone over borrowed and his house got foreclosed then he would at least face some consequences.

    With PSLF, there is no consequence to the person who over borrowed. Regardless if he had borrowed 100 k vs. 200 k, he would pay the same amount and the rest will be forgiven at the expense of the tax payers.


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  46. stoichiometrist

    stoichiometrist 5+ Year Member

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    I see PSLF creating a moral hazard here. If you know that you can get away with borrowing $500k+ to go to USC, go on international vacations, and pay a mortgage on a McMansion with that loan money only to have it all forgiven after 10 years, then what is to stop anyone from doing so? I sure am not willing to pay for others' vacations and lavish lifestyles when I actually lived like a student.

    What about USC and other schools that know about this trick and thus jack up their tuitions even further when they know that students will still be willing to pay?
     
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  47. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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    I see your point, and that's fair, but you have to compare apples to apples.

    I'm assuming job loss here, or you find yourself suddenly working at McDonald's or unemployed.

    Defaulting on an over-borrowed mortgage is equivalent to defaulting on an over-borrowed student loan. A borrower gives up their benefits on both (foreclosure, you lose property and thus your deduction; student loan default, you don't get PSLF because you are literally making no payments, or payments that don't count).

    So the consequences are equivalent.


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  48. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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    You can only borrow up to the COA, which is typically very generous if you find cheaper housing and don't buy textbooks and things. So moral hazard followed. I used my intern money for travel and investments, so I graduated with some money already saved up in retirement. I also continue to minimize my income and defer as much as I can, as well as utilize tax return extensions to minimize the income that my REPAYE amount is based on. All technically legal to the letter of the law.
     
  49. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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  50. npage148

    npage148 Senior Member 10+ Year Member

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    Do people really factor in the mortgage deduction when planning on how much house to buy? It was always just a nice tax bonus for me to go into my pot
     

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