Is this the right track?

[Cloudy Mind]

Hello! I am a 32 year old student trying desperately to find the right program and path for myself. I live in Arizona currently. I just graduated from my online bachelors degree program in psychology and I am currently looking for the right fit for my masters. I know a masters is not a necessity for a PsyD program, but I need/want it to get my GPA up and strong. After that I am planning on going into a PsyD Program that is accredited by the APA, hoping this leads to a successful career as a clinical psychologist.

Here is my delimma - since I am an older student I currently have a full time job Monday-Friday. I have always planned on working at this job during my masters online and then going into the psyche field before/during my doctoral program. The issue is I cannot seem to find an online program that would be sufficient for entry into a PsyD program. Am I looking at these wrong or do they simply not exist? I was enrolled in University of Arizona - Global Campus when I started noticing maybe this was not a suitable program, I then looked into Arizona State University's Online Masters program, but noticed right there in the details it states it does not meet the requirements for clinical psychology or a doctoral program. I am now faced with the realization that I might have to drop everything to go back to an in person program for my masters.

I guess I am mostly looking for guidance or validation that an online program could work or could not. Has anyone graduated from an online masters that did work? I have spoken to everyone I can think of at the institutions listed above and it seems to have led to even more confusion on my side and spiraling down a hole of "what ifs". I appreciate any responses and thank you for reading!

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[psycho1391]

Why a PsyD?

Choosing a Program

Online education: Graduate programs
Good websites to consider.

If you are to be licensed at a master's level (should you not go for your PsyD), you will likely need face-to-face contact hours. Online programs make this VERY difficult if not impossible. Some states require that your university be regionally accredited in order to apply for licensure. So you want to make sure of that if you do choose to do an online program.

 

[quickpsych]

Would recommend researching and exploring reputable, APA accredited in person (or at least offers reliable in person practicum and internship opportunities and at least some in person coursework) Masters degree program. It's going to be quite difficult to maintain a full time job while going through a reputable APA accredited doctoral program.

Another question to ask yourself is why a doctorate? If you primarily want to do psychotherapy and counseling, a masters degree is sufficient, and given managed care, some might argue a masters leading to a licensed clinical social worker credential might even be a better path. Certainly don't need a doctorate to do counseling although you'll likely have fuller and better developed theoretical and applied training at the doctoral level vs masters level. If you are dead set on a doctoral program, avoid online programs, see if you can develop a timeline to save money to live off of (or if can get a stipend while in school) and take a few years off the work force full time to focus on your studies - not often practical although I know a few people who did it. That's a real case by case situation and depends a lot on your situation and finances.

Most doctoral programs will discourage, and some even prohibit, working more than X hours a week while in the program. It's like a full time job in and of itself at the doctoral level.

 

[summerbabe]

Very much second the advice to really examine why a doctorate is a good fit, especially if the end goal is to become a therapist, which can be achieved with a license eligible MA/MS.

99% of PhD and PsyD programs only require a BA/BS (with the other 1% requiring a clinical MA/MS likely because they offer an accelerated program). If I had to wager, I think a majority of PhD/PsyD graduates don't complete an independent MA/MS prior to grad school.

Instead, many people do independent research (e.g., volunteer or paid RA position with a research lab). Some people attend a research focused MA program in psychology and add to their research CV. Some people attend a license eligible MS program that may include a research component. But there is no 'guaranteed' path for successful doctoral admission.

All doctoral study, including PsyDs that bill themselves as clinically oriented, assumes preparation for a career in academia (even though most don't go that route) and that is demonstrated through engagement with original research. And why students who got this experience in undergrad or as a postbacc are admitted every year to competitive programs without completing an MA/MS. If you're wanting to get into a quality doctoral program, you'll need this experience and a CV that reflects this.

It sounds like the online programs you're looking may be general psychology MA programs, which are basically extensions of undergrad psych content and likely won't engage with original research or be license eligible so that probably won't move the needle much, except for diploma mill accredited PsyD programs which might admit you anyways if you're undergrad GPA is decent enough and you're willing to pay their tuition.

 

[PsychSupreme]

This may be helpful to you.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

I love these threads...every time someone comes on here asking about Psy.D. the very first response from someone else is usually "why a Psy.D. and not a Ph.D.? Just answer the OP's question.

 

[WisNeuro]

I love these threads...every time someone comes on here asking about Psy.D. the very first response from someone else is usually "why a Psy.D. and not a Ph.D.? Just answer the OP's question.

Because 95% of the time, the OP has been wildly misinformed, and by expanding their options to both legitimate PsyDs and PhDs, it greatly increases their chances of success. I have numerous PMs over the years of posters writing after they did just that and thankful for the information as they are now in a fully funded program and getting solid training. If we steer even a few people away from diploma mills and absurd levels of debt, it's clearly worth it.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

Because 95% of the time, the OP has been wildly misinformed, and by expanding their options to both legitimate PsyDs and PhDs, it greatly increases their chances of success. I have numerous PMs over the years of posters writing after they did just that and thankful for the information as they are now in a fully funded program and getting solid training. If we steer even a few people away from diploma mills and absurd levels of debt, it's clearly worth it.

Are all Psy.D. programs bad?

 

[WisNeuro]

Are all Psy.D. programs bad?

Can you show me where I state that?

 

[Sanman]

Are all Psy.D. programs bad?

Define bad. Back in the day? No. Currently, the cost of most PsyD programs far outstrips median earnings in the field. It makes no financial sense. Academic quality varies.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Back in the day (early to late 90s) you could go from undergrad straight to some psyd programs and graduate with your doctorate in 4 years (3 years plus internship), without having to get a masters (not saying this was acceptable, just was what it was). And it was cheaper. And the training was still better then and more comprehensive than what many are getting today at these fsps.

 

[Sanman]

Back in the day (early to late 90s) you could go from undergrad straight to some psyd programs and graduate with your doctorate in 4 years (3 years plus internship), without having to get a masters (not saying this was acceptable, just was what it was). And it was cheaper. And the training was still better then and more comprehensive than what many are getting today at these fsps.

You could get a masters en route in some programs and this was true in the early 2000s as well. Pretty much up to the internship crisis.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

It's been addressed above, but as others have said, I'm not sure that an online masters degree will be more than marginally beneficial to you. GPA is important, but research experience is exponentially more so, and is one of the big application boosters obtained from attending a masters program. If you're able to attend an online masters program while simultaneously getting in-person research experience, that may be one option, but is going to involve a lot more moving parts than just attending a non-terminal, in-person masters program that affords research experience as part of its training.

 

[summerbabe]

I love these threads...every time someone comes on here asking about Psy.D. the very first response from someone else is usually "why a Psy.D. and not a Ph.D.? Just answer the OP's question.

A lot of prospective students might not be asking the right questions based on what they've been exposed to so hopefully these responses can help them to more broadly consider their options and then appropriately evaluate the right path for what is a very important and financially impactful life decision.

The most 'marketing' that I've ever seen my PhD program do is post on their dept Facebook page about maintaining a 100% EPPP pass rate whereas non-university based PsyDs are very invested in marketing, including pushing myths such as the PhD being an academic/research degree and that aspiring clinicians would be better served with a PsyD.

If you've ever peeped the med student boards, those posters are even more blunt when they answer prospective student questions ("You're wasting your money if you apply to MDs", "Why are you applying to DOs instead of MDs with those stats?).

 

[ClinicalABA]

I love these threads...every time someone comes on here asking about Psy.D. the very first response from someone else is usually "why a Psy.D. and not a Ph.D.? Just answer the OP's question.

There is a VERY common misconception- often promoted by some of the more common, big cohort PsyD programs through their websites and other marketing efforts- that Ph.D.s are for researchers and Psy.D.s are for clinicians. They often go even further to say that PsyD programs offer more clinical training and experience and earlier in the program than Ph.D. programs. These marketing efforts are often some of the first and only info about graduate programs that prospective students encounter. The stated purpose of this forum is to provide information and support for current and prospective doctoral students in psychology. Failing to at least ask the "why not a Ph.D. program" question would- imho- be a failure to meet that purpose, and thus be a disservice to the OP.

I would certainly welcome a differing perspective on why prospective students should limit themselves to PsyD program. Of hand, I imagine competitiveness/ease of admission is one reason. However, if better/free training is an option, should we not at least ask posters why they aren't considering it? Time and again, posters reply that they are only considering PysD programs because they just want to do clinical work. This is evidence of their being misinformed.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Are all Psy.D. programs bad?

My experience is not that "all" PsyD programs are bad (or that all Ph.D. programs are good), but rather that- in regards to the handful of free-standing professional school (FSPS) PsyD programs with which I have had personal experiences- the abilities (clinical; professional; interpersonal) of their students/graduates is highly variable and quite unpredictable. Also, attrition and licensure rates from many of the big name large cohort FSPS's is abysmal, representing the loss of HUGE amounts of money and acquisition of life-altering (in a negative way) amounts of debt (which many of these programs- covertly if not overtly- suggest will be much more easy to discharge through government programs than is actually the case).

 

[psyduckies]

Thoughts on a PsyD program who has a smaller cohort model (13 max, typically 7-9) , is not part of a professional school, and is part of a bigger university? Is it mostly PsyD programs that are professional schools you see issues with- or is it PsyDs as a whole? (Trying to see whether I should be rethinking life choices)

 

[WisNeuro]

Thoughts on a PsyD program who has a smaller cohort model (13 max, typically 7-9) , is not part of a professional school, and is part of a bigger university? Is it mostly PsyD programs that are professional schools you see issues with- or is it PsyDs as a whole? (Trying to see whether I should be rethinking life choices)

There are definitely some smaller cohort, funded PsyD programs of very high quality. Definitely look into those. However, I would expand into also looking at funded clinically-focused and balanced PhD programs as well. All will have similar entry requirements and competitiveness. As for your life choices, no idea, depends on your career goals.

 

[PsychPhDone]

Thoughts on a PsyD program who has a smaller cohort model (13 max, typically 7-9) , is not part of a professional school, and is part of a bigger university? Is it mostly PsyD programs that are professional schools you see issues with- or is it PsyDs as a whole? (Trying to see whether I should be rethinking life choices)

Smaller cohort likely more legit but need to assess their internship match rate, licensure rate, and not important to us but possibly important to you: cost to attend

 

[Sanman]

Thoughts on a PsyD program who has a smaller cohort model (13 max, typically 7-9) , is not part of a professional school, and is part of a bigger university? Is it mostly PsyD programs that are professional schools you see issues with- or is it PsyDs as a whole? (Trying to see whether I should be rethinking life choices)

In general, smaller cohort programs usually do a better job of training as they are investing more resources into each student. Cost is a separate factor but equally relevant, IMO. It used to be the professional schools were the main concern. However, it recent years some university based PsyD programs that were mid tier have increased enrollment to fill the monetary hole left by EDMC bankruptcy. I recall threads here from students complaining about Long Island U and Nova Southeastern following increased enrollment.

 

[summerbabe]

Thoughts on a PsyD program who has a smaller cohort model (13 max, typically 7-9) , is not part of a professional school, and is part of a bigger university? Is it mostly PsyD programs that are professional schools you see issues with- or is it PsyDs as a whole? (Trying to see whether I should be rethinking life choices)

PsyDs that offer funding (including partial) would be more likely to offer similar quality training as funded PhD since they are literally investing in their students, versus the other way around.

For example, Baylor fits this mold of having small cohorts, full funding and having a heavy research emphasis and you shouldn’t find any meaningful differences in their student experiences or outcomes compared to PhD programs.

For programs that don’t offer any funding, I wouldn’t rule them out automatically but would do more digging.

From reviewing internship applications, I’ll see applications from self-pay PsyD programs which suggest students have too much autonomy that is then detrimental to their training (near zero assessment experience because they just want to be a therapist, lit review dissertation because they don’t like research, etc).

You wouldn’t be able to get away with those preferences in a solid PhD or PsyD but some PsyDs will allow it to happen and those are the ones that are watering down quality in our field IMO.