Is this true of the fate of most MD/PhD candidates?

[Alakazam123]

I seriously was contemplating applying to MD/PhD programs. I understand the purpose is to produce physician-scientists, and that the 80/20 research split is hard to find in general. But what I noticed after doing a rough "headcount" of MSTP alumni from top universities (Stanford, Harvard, Yale, Duke, etc.) doing research, I found the following:

1. Only about 20% of alumni from each year's graduating class, despite being from the top universities in the country, ended up finding a research-heavy faculty position.
2. Out of those who ended up in a research position, a lot of them did not have active grants running.
3. 75-80% naturally ended up going to work in private practice or in a hospital system
4. A very small minority of them ended up getting some non-medically related posting in the government or private sector.

Is the MD/PhD losing its utility? Is it not worth applying these days?

Many people talk about a saturation in PhDs in academia. Is this also happening with MD/PhDs?

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[Med Ed]

Many people talk about a saturation in PhDs in academia. Is this also happening with MD/PhDs?

The issue is that research funding is fundamentally broken and the paylines have been in the dirt for years. If you've got an MD there is progressively diminishing incentive to attempt a serious research career when a more stable and lucrative option exists.

 

[Alakazam123]

The issue is that research funding is fundamentally broken and the paylines have been in the dirt for years. If you've got an MD there is progressively diminishing incentive to attempt a serious research career when a more stable and lucrative option exists.

Right, I was just shocked when, even from those top institutions, only very few people ended up getting a research heavy position. And even amongst them, even fewer had active grants running.

 

[Med Ed]

Right, I was just shocked when, even from those top institutions, only very few people ended up getting a research heavy position. And even amongst them, even fewer had active grants running.

This just shows you the scope of the problem. A disproportionate amount of R01 funding goes to labs that are highly productive. While this sounds logical, it also creates a self-reinforcing loop that generates a few extremely powerful kings and many, many paupers.

 

[Alakazam123]

What kind of lab were you hoping to work in during your PhD? 5-year research programs like Pitt’s PSTP or Cleveland Clinic might be a more efficient option if you’re interested in academic medicine.

Computational. But I'm just keeping my options open as of now, and trying to focus on my MCAT. I'll be honest when I say I've struggled with research in the past. But every time a professor has told me that I'm not cut out for his/her lab, I feel all the more motivated to get back in there. Therefore, I'm keeping my options open on the MD/PhD front.

I'm very interested in the biotech industry and contributing to the discovery of new drugs that directly improve patient health. After volunteering, I realized that I love the patient care aspect of things. I always looked forward to going to volunteer and talk to some of the patients on the floor, or to the nurses who were assigned to rotate there. But, I also was dissatisfied with just being stuck diagnosing things, without being able to find some sort of treatment.

A few med students at my med school co-founded biotech startups, and I became curious on the role of MD's in pharma. From what I've seen, without a PhD, it's VERY VERY hard to get an R&D role in pharma. Even those who enter as an Associate Medical Director, etc. usually were academics and oversaw many successful clinical trials.

Thus, I was considering the MD/PhD option as it'd open the most doors for my interests specifically. I understand that those who have no interest in research and only want to practice clinical medicine should not waste their time on going for the PhD. But since I'm interested in R&D, a PhD would be good for me I assumed.

 

[Alakazam123]

After reading this, some may say that a PhD is the worst decision possible at this point, but I just wanted to give everyone a thorough background.

 

[Med Ed]

After reading this, some may say that a PhD is the worst decision possible at this point, but I just wanted to give everyone a thorough background.

So you've been asked to leave 5 labs?

 

[Seihai]

OP, there's nothing wrong with this, but it just doesn't seem like you're either cut out for research or that you wouldn't like research that much, primarily because you didn't seem to mesh well in any of the labs you joined. Being asked to leave 4/5 labs is not a good sign, even if you maintained good relationships after. Unless you were the unluckiest person in the world, I'd seriously reconsider your decision to pursue an MD/PhD, much less a career with a strong research component.

 

[hailbate]

They would also give me career advice, and even engaged in casual conversation on more than one occasion.

I'm sorry, but I found this sentence hilarious

You're telling me that your research mentors were ACTUAL PEOPLE and not just robots designed to do research?!

 

[Alakazam123]

I'm sorry, but I found this sentence hilarious

You're telling me that your research mentors were ACTUAL PEOPLE and not just robots designed to do research?!

Sorry, I was just trying to say that they went out of their way to inquire about me on many occasions, indicating that there was no ill-will.

 

[Alakazam123]

OP, there's nothing wrong with this, but it just doesn't seem like you're either cut out for research or that you wouldn't like research that much, primarily because you didn't seem to mesh well in any of the labs you joined. Being asked to leave 4/5 labs is not a good sign, even if you maintained good relationships after. Unless you were the unluckiest person in the world, I'd seriously reconsider your decision to pursue an MD/PhD, much less a career with a strong research component.

You know, I think you're right. I will always feel the burn inside though, that I'll never be able to contribute to any original ideas. But I guess it's better than screwing up again.

 

[Alakazam123]

There's always that rush that you get, when an idea is yours and is novel, and something nobody's tried before, and it may be a pain to lose it.

 

[Alakazam123]

So you've been asked to leave 5 labs?

Yes (well technically the first 4; I did a literature review project for the 5th instead), for competency/learning curve reasons, and not personal reasons. The latter is why the professors still talk to me, and have offered me letters of recommendation. I know of cases where students had a falling out with the professor, and it was ugly. However, in my situation none of them have had any anger towards me and have offered to serve as references for jobs as well.

In fact, just recently, the first professor connected me with a bioinformatician, when I mentioned that I'd be interested in doing some computational work.

 

[Med Ed]

Yes (well technically the first 4; I did a literature review project for the 5th instead), for competency/learning curve reasons, and not personal reasons.

I've been at this academic medicine thing for awhile and have never heard of such a thing. Not even close. I suspect there is more to the story.

 

[Lawpy]

OP, there's nothing wrong with this, but it just doesn't seem like you're either cut out for research or that you wouldn't like research that much, primarily because you didn't seem to mesh well in any of the labs you joined. Being asked to leave 4/5 labs is not a good sign, even if you maintained good relationships after. Unless you were the unluckiest person in the world, I'd seriously reconsider your decision to pursue an MD/PhD, much less a career with a strong research component.

It doesn't look like basic science research works for OP which is fine. But OP can do other types of research and be successful.

 

[Kirby Smart]

This is a real strange story tbh... OP if you're not really close to applying yet, I suggest you focus heavily on every other aspect of your application and then you can consider whether MD/PhD is something you are competitive for and interested in. It's easy with so much information as a pre-med to get kind of stuck in the weeds, which it sounds like you may be.

Focus on crafting a killer medical school app if you want to become a doctor and then closer to app time to can think about how interested you are in pursuing research. I agree with others here that it seems pretty obvious that focusing 3-5 years of your life on research to obtain a PhD is likely not realistic for you, but tbh it's kind of a moot point right now imo.

 

[Alakazam123]

I've been at this academic medicine thing for awhile and have never heard of such a thing. Not even close. I suspect there is more to the story.

I am in an MA program in Biological Sciences at my University. This unique program allows for students exploring research to either do bench research, clinical research, or pursue a literature based project, wherein you read literature, generate an original idea, and then propose experimental design for it.
Then, you develop a project summary/proposal, or a presentation.

You may not have heard of it because it truly is a unique program. It has served as a post-bac program as well for many pre-med students. It is multifunctional, and is sort of in its own category.

This is not the same as an MS program or a PhD program.

The reason why I did the literature based project was because my bench experiments were not working out. Thus, my PI, who was aware of this program, opted to let me do the literature based project.

It is possible that I might be a socially awkward individual, and they just did not like having me around but tried to be polite, if that is any reconciliation. Maybe I just rubbed someone the wrong way and did not realize. All I know is that I've had positive interactions with all faculty afterward.

 

[Alakazam123]

For those who don't believe me, I assure you I am telling the truth. This is all I can say. It is possible that I rubbed some people the wrong way...perhaps. Truth be told, I don't know, and I probably will never know. I have given up on trying to find out. It is also possible that I am an utterly useless dunce who has no business going anywhere near the field of medicine, and am probably better off mopping floors.

But I just wanted to be honest about my experiences, and I have been. It appears that the verdict is that I am not cut out for research. Thank you all for your opinions.


I think we can close this thread now.