MD/PhD or PhD -> MD

[rivertalon123]

Hey friends,

New here, but not many of my mentors are in the medical field so I just thought I would post quickly to see if anyone has any advice.

I am currently a research-based, funded, Masters's student in BME, continuing in my undergraduate lab where I recently graduated with my bachelor's in Mechanical Engineering and Biophysics. Slated to graduate in Spring 2023/Fall 2024 depending on class availability.

For the past 4 years, I had planned on pursuing a career as a physician-scientist, but I am not sure what steps I should take next to achieve my goals.

I currently have two plans, but I am unsure of which one may be better suited.

Plan A: Apply next cycle for MSTP programs. This is the most direct pathway I can imagine, if I were to somehow get accepted for entry in Fall 2024, my tentative graduation would be around 2032. However, I don't know how good of an applicant I would be, my experience is much more research-heavy (100 hours of clinical research at a hospital, 20 shadowing, ~40 shadowing slated for spring). As such, I would need to gather more shadowing and prepare for the MCAT in the coming months.
Pros: MSTP programs are usually funded
Cons: Uncertainty in advisor, long commitment time, possible longer graduation date
Other Considerations: Different Living Environment away from my Undergraduate


Plan B: My PI suggested I apply to our PhD program for entry in 2023 and transfer my Master's credits toward it. I threw in an application because I love the work I do and my lab environment. Given the work, I have done since my undergraduate years, graduate years and pending publications in the future. My PI believes that I may be able to graduate in 3ish years from now as a PhD student. This would be a possible estimated graduation of 2026. Then afterward, I could apply directly to medical school. Depending on the program (for instance Columbia's 3 year PhD to MD program, NYU's or Vandy's) this could result in possible graduation around 2029-2030 (if a 4 year program).
Pros: I love the work my lab does, I get along very well with my PI, possibly faster graduation, I could live with my parents for a little while longer, flexibility in locations for two 3 year time frames, I could start now
Cons: to my knowledge, there is no way to fund this route to becoming a physician-scientist,
Other Considerations: Same living environment from undergraduate, more connections at my current university

I have reached out to the medical school at my university to see if there is any way I could transfer into our MD/PhD program as a PhD candidate. They mentioned there would not be since our health center is at a different campus than our main one. In order to be considered I would need to drop my program at our main campus, and forgo the opportunity of working with my current PI. This effectively would be the same as plan A to my understanding.

I have been pretty lost in what to do. I find clinical work extremely rewarding in my experience through shadowing and performing clinical research at the local hospital. But I love the research work I do.

I am aware if I were to take out loans I wouldn't be able to pay them off as fast as a normal physician, which is very daunting as well.

For further information, my current undergraduate GPA was 3.8, my current graduate GPA is 4.0 and I would have around 3500 hrs of research under my belt at the time of graduation from my masters.

If anyone has advice, it would be greatly appreciated.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

We do have our Research Scientists forum, so I leave it to the moderators to see if this warrants moving this thread over or not.

But you are right that you have many options to entertain. You seem to know about many of them so I won't belabor mentioning them again. The challenge is really figuring out what you see yourself doing. You don't necessarily need both degrees depending on what you really want to do, but you do need to decide your path.

There are some programs that like engineers (Carle and EnMed Texas A&M explicitly so), and your usual BME programs are connected with medical schools too.

Ultimately you need to weigh all the considerations regarding MD curriculum and flexibility with your background, costs of attendance, student support, and residency salary deferred with additional research years. It's good that you have many options, but you need to decide what best works for you over the next three years or so.

 

[Med Ed]

For further information, my current undergraduate GPA was 3.8, my current graduate GPA is 4.0 and I would have around 3500 hrs of research under my belt at the time of graduation from my masters.

If anyone has advice, it would be greatly appreciated.

You won't really know your options until you have an MCAT score.

In general, MSTP admissions are more accepting of people with backgrounds like yours (heavy research interest and productivity, maybe a little lighter on the soup kitchens). If you post a good MCAT score you may be broadly competitive.

The reception to PhDs who apply to MD programs is a bit more mixed. Plenty of people do it, but you will eventually have to generate an entirely new application with a compelling reason to get a second doctorate.

I'm probably biased because I have seen how persnickety MD admissions can be. If you have the opportunity to do a funded combined degree program with a unified admission process, I would advise you take it.

 

[Doctor-S]

We do have our Research Scientists forum, so I leave it to the moderators to see if this warrants moving this thread over or not.

The challenge is really figuring out what you see yourself doing. You don't necessarily need both degrees depending on what you really want to do, but you do need to decide your path.

You won't really know your options until you have an MCAT score.

In general, MSTP admissions are more accepting of people with backgrounds like yours (heavy research interest and productivity, maybe a little lighter on the soup kitchens). If you post a good MCAT score you may be broadly competitive.

Agree with these comments.

 

[rivertalon123]

We do have our Research Scientists forum, so I leave it to the moderators to see if this warrants moving this thread over or not.

But you are right that you have many options to entertain. You seem to know about many of them so I won't belabor mentioning them again. The challenge is really figuring out what you see yourself doing. You don't necessarily need both degrees depending on what you really want to do, but you do need to decide your path.

There are some programs that like engineers (Carle and EnMed Texas A&M explicitly so), and your usual BME programs are connected with medical schools too.

Ultimately you need to weigh all the considerations regarding MD curriculum and flexibility with your background, costs of attendance, student support, and residency salary deferred with additional research years. It's good that you have many options, but you need to decide what best works for you over the next three years or so.

Thank you for your reply, I will wait to see if this gets moved. I didn't realize there were so many different sub-forums!

That is a great point, it's a question I have been trying to figure out a lot about myself. Especially provided I have seen people in my field with an MD, a Ph.D., and an MD-PhD.

I think right now- I can see myself being a clinician that spends most of their time on research through collaborations with my computational background. The 80/20 split, however, I do not know if it's my goal to have my own lab, I would need to learn more about that. With that said, it makes the idea of pursuing just an MD appealing. However, given my research right now is engineering based, and non-clinical, I am eager and excited about what I am learning. I think a PhD in engineering is something I inherently want to pursue, and don't know if I could learn what I want from pursuing an MD alone. As such, I think I am left with thinking the two degrees might be my goal.

I was looking into programs like the NIH LRP, and NIH GPP which may allow me to do the PhD in my current lab. But it seems naive of me to disregard the funded 8-year programs that are out there. My MCAT date is in mid-April, so I don't know if I have enough time to pull it off and get more clinical experience to apply.

 

[rivertalon123]

You won't really know your options until you have an MCAT score.

In general, MSTP admissions are more accepting of people with backgrounds like yours (heavy research interest and productivity, maybe a little lighter on the soup kitchens). If you post a good MCAT score you may be broadly competitive.

The reception to PhDs who apply to MD programs is a bit more mixed. Plenty of people do it, but you will eventually have to generate an entirely new application with a compelling reason to get a second doctorate.

I'm probably biased because I have seen how persnickety MD admissions can be. If you have the opportunity to do a funded combined degree program with a unified admission process, I would advise you take it.

Thank you for your reply.

I currently have my MCAT date set for mid-April and am starting to implement my study schedule now.

I was hoping to figure out which path to pursue since, in the case of taking the MCAT this spring, I could use it for MSTP admissions in the 2023-2024 cycle, however, likely not the PhD -> MD timeline? Its only valid for 3 years, right? So if I were to follow the PhD -> MD timeline I would be a few months short of being able to use it.

That's really helpful to hear about the process of applying to MD programs with a PhD, especially if I have the intention of pursuing a career as a physician-scientist now.

My MCAT date is in mid-April, so I don't know if I have enough time to pull it off and get more clinical experience to apply.

 

[Med Ed]

Thank you for your reply.

I currently have my MCAT date set for mid-April and am starting to implement my study schedule now.

I was hoping to figure out which path to pursue since, in the case of taking the MCAT this spring, I could use it for MSTP admissions in the 2023-2024 cycle, however, likely not the PhD -> MD timeline? Its only valid for 3 years, right? So if I were to follow the PhD -> MD timeline I would be a few months short of being able to use it.

That's really helpful to hear about the process of applying to MD programs with a PhD, especially if I have the intention of pursuing a career as a physician-scientist now.

My MCAT date is in mid-April, so I don't know if I have enough time to pull it off and get more clinical experience to apply.

I can see the chicken-or-egg dilemma you are facing, but I think you're on the right path with an April MCAT. If you have a good score then you may be good to go. And if you end up doing the PhD to MD path then there are certainly worse things than retaking an expired MCAT.

Also bear in mind that not all medical schools will consider applicants who are currently enrolled in a graduate program, so that could constrict your options. Lastly, if the plan is to finish your PhD and matriculate into an MD program in 2026, then you'll probably need to defend by June of that year. It's a tight timeline and everything has go right, or you're looking at 2027 at the earliest to start medical school.