Is this unethical?

[mariposas905]

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Is it unethical to take a patient's vital signs and write patient chart notes during a shadowing experience if the doctor taught you how to and asked you to do so? This was at a private clinic.

 

[getdown]

No. Nothing you did is unethical. You took some vitals for goodness sake, not do a digital rectal exam. The whole patient chart notes needs further clarification. Is this formal charting or did you just take notes on a notepad for the doc that he'll use to enter notes himself later? Did he tell you what to write or were you just writing things you thought important? Ultimately even this is not an ethical dilemma, it's a liability issue for the doctor. If those notes ever got audited and you had put a bunch of nonsense he's exposing himself to some trouble. Unethical would be him telling you to write obviously wrong information in a formal document.

 

[sunshinefl]

Sounds like they are making use of the free labor lol. I guess it’s not if you were taught and felt competent. No different that OTJ training of a medical assistant I guess.

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

You’re not putting this on your application are you?

 

[mariposas905]

You’re not putting this on your application are you?

I did, which is why I'm worried about it. Since it's shadowing, I wasn't sure if student observers are typically allowed to do things like this

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

I did, which is why I'm worried about it. Since it's shadowing, I wasn't sure if student observers are typically allowed to do things like this

You’re not supposed to do anything but watch. That’s why it’s.... shadowing. You are not supposed to touch patients.

 

[mariposas905]

You’re not supposed to do anything but watch. That’s why it’s.... shadowing. You are not supposed to touch patients.

Does it matter if it was a teaching clinic? The physician in charge was asking me to learn everything that the 3rd year med students were doing and to follow them. The physician showed me how to do basic vital signs and asked me to perform a few

 

[mariposas905]

Also, on my AMCAS I wrote it like this: Learned how to take vital signs. That doesn't really show anything about touching patients right? I'm guessing I should be okay..?

 

[CAFFEINE!]

No, it is not unethical. Physicians have the legal authority to delegate patient care duties to any licensed or unlicensed person as they see fit. If, however, that person harms the patient then the physician will be the one who gets in legal trouble.

 

[getdown]

Does it matter if it was a teaching clinic? The physician in charge was asking me to learn everything that the 3rd year med students were doing and to follow them. The physician showed me how to do basic vital signs and asked me to perform a few

Also, on my AMCAS I wrote it like this: Learned how to take vital signs. That doesn't really show anything about touching patients right? I'm guessing I should be okay..?

Take a deep breath. Nothing you did would make any adcom question your ethics. In all honesty, this being June and all, the level of competency between you and the MS3s that just started in terms of taking vitals is probably the same. And the whole idea that since you're shadowing you can't do anything but look is just plain stupid. If the doctor asks you and the patient is fine with it then it's ok ... the whole idea behind consent. I'd go so far as to think it stupid for you NOT to want to learn how to do these things if offered. And again ... it's VITAL SIGNS not open heart surgery. The most you do in "touching" a patient is to feel their pulse and count or put a blood pressure cuff, inflate and listen. Jesus, most clinics these days have automated vital sign machines that all you do is put on the cuff and stick a pulse ox on and it literally spits out a number. Anyone who somehow sees this as an issue needs to take the stick out their butts.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

You’re not supposed to do anything but watch. That’s why it’s.... shadowing. You are not supposed to touch patients.

Lol no. Doctors can have their student shadows do whatever, as it’s their license on the line. I’ve known pre-meds to actually scrub when they have a close connection with the doc they are shadowing

And no OP, this is a non-issue.

 

[21Rush12]

You’re not supposed to do anything but watch. That’s why it’s.... shadowing. You are not supposed to touch patients.

No need for alarm. Supervised activities like this are completely fine. If your only shadowing experience was literally standing there doing nothing, I feel bad for you.

Some doctors I shadowed I interviewed the patients and reported my findings, which I’m now finding out is what third year Med students do. If the patient agrees there’s nothing wrong with it whatsoever and it’s often a rewarding experience.

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

No need for alarm. Supervised activities like this are completely fine. If your only shadowing experience was literally standing there doing nothing, I feel bad for you.

Some doctors I shadowed I interviewed the patients and reported my findings, which I’m now finding out is what third year Med students do. If the patient agrees there’s nothing wrong with it whatsoever and it’s often a rewarding experience.

I have a job in healthcare where I work with patients. Yes it most definitely is a rewarding experience. In shadowing the most I’ve done is call patients back to the room and talk with them before the doctor came in. It’s it’s not just standing around. They went in depth about what they were doing and what the patients conditions were.

You reported your findings? Thats cute. Then the doctor came in and did the actual talking with patients. But at least you got to feel a sense of achievement in that. What you described doesn’t compare to doing what OP did. I’ve done what you did with a couple doctors while shadowing. Everywhere I’ve shadowed I’ve signed a waiver on the terms and conditions. No treating patients or touching them.

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

Lol no. Doctors can have their student shadows do whatever, as it’s their license on the line. I’ve known pre-meds to actually scrub when they have a close connection with the doc they are shadowing

And no OP, this is a non-issue.

I’ve scrubbed in on surgeries with a doctor. When you say scrub do you mean actually helping out with the surgery or being in the OR watching?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I’ve scrubbed in on surgeries with a doctor. When you say scrub do you mean actually helping out with the surgery or being in the OR watching?

Lol you realize that there is only one meaning of “scrubbed in” right?

 

[RNtoMD87]

I actually participate when I shadowing. Seems like it would be kind of awkward to stand there and not help out at all.

 

[21Rush12]

I have a job in healthcare where I work with patients. Yes it most definitely is a rewarding experience. In shadowing the most I’ve done is call patients back to the room and talk with them before the doctor came in. It’s it’s not just standing around. They went in depth about what they were doing and what the patients conditions were.

You reported your findings? Thats cute. Then the doctor came in and did the actual talking with patients. But at least you got to feel a sense of achievement in that. What you described doesn’t compare to doing what OP did. I’ve done what you did with a couple doctors while shadowing. Everywhere I’ve shadowed I’ve signed a waiver on the terms and conditions. No treating patients or touching them.

I can’t tell if you’re serious — medical assistants take vitals and a basic history all the time. Do they not count? What OP described is basically this, and what I’ve described about my own shadowing experiences is exactly that. Vital signs, chief complaint, HPI, PMH, Meds, Allergies, OPQRSTI etc. then present the patient and give my (admittedly very basic at the time) differential and plan. Other settings (non-primary care) were less conducive to this for time constraints, but it was certainly not unethical, harmful, or in any way beyond the ability of a competent premed. I don’t feel it’s productive to raise the alarm because you are not personally comfortable with what OP did, because their experience is not at all out of the ordinary.

I don’t appreciate the attitude either. At least take the MCAT before you condescend to someone with >7 years of clinical experience about what it’s like to work with patients.

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

Lol you realize that there is only one meaning of “scrubbed in” right?

I was hoping you didn’t actually mean scrubbing in. It’s alarming a doctor would have you do that.

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

I can’t tell if you’re serious — medical assistants take vitals and a basic history all the time. Do they not count? What OP described is basically this, and what I’ve described about my own shadowing experiences is exactly that. Vital signs, chief complaint, HPI, PMH, Meds, Allergies, OPQRSTI etc. then present the patient and give my (admittedly very basic at the time) differential and plan. Other settings (non-primary care) were less conducive to this for time constraints, but it was certainly not unethical, harmful, or in any way beyond the ability of a competent premed. I don’t feel it’s productive to raise the alarm because you are not personally comfortable with what OP did, because their experience is not at all out of the ordinary.

I don’t appreciate the attitude either. At least take the MCAT before you condescend to someone with >7 years of clinical experience about what it’s like to work with patients.

The attitude? You’re the one that came in here with an attitude. Yeah I expect a medical assistant to do those things. They are trained and employed by the hospital. Duh. Thanks for clearing up what a medical assistant does.

What does the MCAT have to do with patient experience? I’ve worked in healthcare for 5 years. You don’t need the MCAT for that. Is this what you tell the nurses, medical assistants, PAs anytime you get in a spat with them?

Go take the MCAT then come talk to me. Lmao. Sorry man didn’t know I was supposed to kiss the ground you walk on. But now I know better. You’re the cool guy.

You guys are right. My bad. Premeds should be able to treat patients and scrub in on surgeries. Lmao! Right. Carry on then.

 

[DrRiker]

The attitude? You’re the one that came in here with an attitude. Yeah I expect a medical assistant to do those things. They are trained and employed by the hospital. Duh. Thanks for clearing up what a medical assistant does. In your original post to me you said you interviewed patients and reported your findings. You didn’t mention vitals or anything else.

What does the MCAT have to do with patient experience? I’ve worked in healthcare for 5 years. You don’t need the MCAT for that. Is this what you tell the nurses, medical assistants, PAs anytime you get in a spat with them?

Go take the MCAT then come talk to me. Lmao. Sorry man didn’t know I was supposed to kiss the ground you walk on. But now I know better. You’re the cool guy.

You guys are right. My bad. Premeds should be able to treat patients and scrub in on surgeries. Lmao! Right. Carry on then.

This insignificant matter is becoming entertaining

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I was hoping you didn’t actually mean scrubbing in. It’s alarming a doctor would have you do that.

Lol who ever said anything about me? I said I’ve seen it, multiple times. You live in a bit of a fantasy land if you seriously think holding a retractor is “alarming.” The OR is not some mythical place.

 

[Goro]

I have a job in healthcare where I work with patients. Yes it most definitely is a rewarding experience. In shadowing the most I’ve done is call patients back to the room and talk with them before the doctor came in. It’s it’s not just standing around. They went in depth about what they were doing and what the patients conditions were.

You reported your findings? Thats cute. Then the doctor came in and did the actual talking with patients. But at least you got to feel a sense of achievement in that. What you described doesn’t compare to doing what OP did. I’ve done what you did with a couple doctors while shadowing. Everywhere I’ve shadowed I’ve signed a waiver on the terms and conditions. No treating patients or touching them.

As you can see from the responses of others with shadowing experience (and more importantly, from medical students and attendings), you are engaging in the sin of solipsism.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Lol who ever said anything about me? I said I’ve seen it, multiple times. You live in a bit of a fantasy land if you seriously think holding a retractor is “alarming.” The OR is not some mythical place.

I honestly don't see the point in shadowing a surgeon if you can't at least scrub in and stay the hell out of the way.

 

[sunshinefl]

Lol who ever said anything about me? I said I’ve seen it, multiple times. You live in a bit of a fantasy land if you seriously think holding a retractor is “alarming.” The OR is not some mythical place.

In my CNA clinicals (yes, we actually had that! It was a really good CNA program I took before I started my RN program so I could work in the field on the weekends), I had some OR shadowing time. They had me help with positioning and other minor things.

 

[DrRiker]

I honestly don't see the point in shadowing a surgeon if you can't at least scrub in and stay the hell out of the way.

I've shadowed a vascular surgeon before. Stood looking over his shoulder while he made a bicep AV fistula. After he closed, he invited me over to feel the thrill (fluid dynamics, not emotion) of the fistula through the skin. Absolutely nothing unethical, except maybe for him telling me after the fact that the patient was HepC+ and I should wash my hands.