Is Vet School Debt manageable? Does Specializing in the long run help?

[pp9]

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I guess it was the clinic I worked in that put me off of GP. I have always wanted to work with Zoo animals. My goal was to be a vet for Disney's Animal Kingdom. Since I found out in order to be boarded in Zoological medicine you need to be an author in a journal, I felt I needed to find another outlet. I am not very good at writing nor have I ever cared for research.

Have you looked into their internship? I did it last year and would highly recommend it! That's actually the same career goal I have now, but I'd also love to work in my home zoo as well. I just wouldn't get free admission to Epcot....

In order to qualify to take the boarding exam, you need at least 5 peer reviewed and published articles (basically what you said). You also need to continue to publish to maintain your boarded status. I don't think you should disqualify yourself based off of a dislike for writing, but it is part of the job.

LIS said it well....you will be thoroughly discouraged on SDN and in your school/summer jobs when you mention you want to pursue zoo. Most people who discourage you don't always know the stats/process that well themselves, but that's not always the case. All you can do is get really good grades (yes, you have to do very well in vet school), letters of rec/connections, and preferably some research experience and publications before you apply to a residency. The boarding exam is easily one of the hardest boarding exams out there (I've only heard pathology as being as impossibly difficult as zoo), and you will have to work hard to find a job. For both residencies and jobs, you must be prepared to move (cross-country, even). You won't make much when you consider the ~10 years you put into post-bac education, but if it's what you want, then go for it. Just remember to be realistic along the way, and be prepared for subtle cutthroat competition throughout vet school.

 

[dyachei]

Meanwhile in Florida...

yeah...I learned a ton about blasto at UTK...people here are like "yeah I've heard that happens in other places"

 

[Minnerbelle]

yeah...I learned a ton about blasto at UTK...people here are like "yeah I've heard that happens in other places"

Fungal in general is pretty rare in the northeast. We get occasional heartworm, mostly from dogs that come from elsewhere. Even parvo's fairly uncommon. We're pretty tame here in terms of infectious diseases.

Except for Lyme and Anaplasma galore with the occasional erlichia thrown in. Every dog and their mothers is positive for something. I hate 4dx on asymptomatic patients. It's the bain of my existence.

 

[dyachei]

Fungal in general is pretty rare in the northeast. We get occasional heartworm, mostly from dogs that come from elsewhere. Even parvo's fairly uncommon. We're pretty tame here in terms of infectious diseases.

Except for Lyme and Anaplasma galore with the occasional erlichia thrown in. Every dog and their mothers is positive for something. I hate 4dx on asymptomatic patients. It's the bain of my existence.

I actually recommend all my northern patients (especially those snowbirds from the northeast) get 4dx. We've caught a few Lyme cases where the owners thought they were asymptomatic until we talked about symptoms and...yeah. they were symptomatic

 

[DVMDream]

Even parvo's fairly uncommon.

I wish. AZ is like a giant pot of parvo virus, we'd see multiple cases every day during the summer and again at the end of fall and into winter. I hate, hate, hate parvo. Same goes for distemper. It isn't quite as common as parvo, but way more common than anyone would like.

And if I hear one more professor or clinician tell students that they will "never see distemper". I might have to smack them upside the head with a pool noodle.

 

[WildZoo]

I wish. AZ is like a giant pot of parvo virus, we'd see multiple cases every day during the summer and again at the end of fall and into winter. I hate, hate, hate parvo. Same goes for distemper. It isn't quite as common as parvo, but way more common than anyone would like.

And if I hear one more professor or clinician tell students that they will "never see distemper". I might have to smack them upside the head with a pool noodle.

That sucks 🙁 I've never seen a distemper case and have only seen one parvo.

 

[DVMDream]

That sucks 🙁 I've never seen a distemper case and have only seen one parvo.

I spent 3 weeks at the humane society 2 years ago and we saw around 7-10 puppies with distemper that came in as strays off the street.


Parvo was a constant battle... and many people couldn't afford hospitalization, so we'd often send home with fluids to give SQ, pain meds to give SQ, anti-nausea meds SQ, and antibiotics SQ and then just cross our fingers that was enough. Then we'd have the ones that would come in already knocking on death's door, pale white and taking agonal breaths. Then you get the ones that you do hospitalize and you spend a week cleaning up bloody diarrhea but then that is compounded by the fact that so many of them are coming in that you'd be cleaning up bloody diarrhea basically every day for months. And the poor things just look and feel like ****, plus at some point you need them to start eating, so often we'd be force feeding them at a time that they really don't want food... it was just... ugh. I hate parvo.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I actually recommend all my northern patients (especially those snowbirds from the northeast) get 4dx. We've caught a few Lyme cases where the owners thought they were asymptomatic until we talked about symptoms and...yeah. they were symptomatic

Well scale that to every single one of your patients, and it is truly just a pain in the ass. As a clinic we recommend 4dx yearly. Almost all my wellness patients are positive for something if they aren't very very diligent about tick control. It's very exhausting going through these discussions day in and day out as a vast majority are not clinically ill. Especially year after year of positives switching between Lyme and Anaplasma or a combo of both. There are for sure arguments for it being beneficial (particularly in convincing owners their tick control regimen is not good enough as I had already told them but they wouldn't listen!), but it is still a huge pain in the butt. I do know people in academia who advocate HW Ag for yearlies in endemic areas though, and I see their point too.

 

[katashark]

It is mostly in the southwest US... Arizona and California and some in New Mexico/Texas/Colorado. When I was working as a tech in Arizona, we saw it quite frequently. We actually had a full drawer of fluconazole because of it... and we would even run out sometimes.

Yup. That's how the clinic is where I work as a tech. Lots of valley fever, incredible range of symptoms.

 

[dyachei]

And if I hear one more professor or clinician tell students that they will "never see distemper"

I've had 2 distemper cases (confirmed) since opening my clinic less than 18 months ago....That's private practice, not shelter work. so yeah. I remember that, too

 

[hazelmoo]

I wish I didn't live in Florida. But at least it's finally nice outside 😀

I want to end up in Florida one day 🙂 born and raised there. I like the weather, but I will miss having seasons...

There is a s***ton of parvo where I live too. I HATE it. During the summer, we were seeing 2-3 cases a week, sometimes more. And the majority of people choose in home treatment because they can't afford hospitalization 🙁 it's the worst.

 

[Riscatto]

Now I'm worried about moving to Florida. Although I was already scared in tech school, but I mostly want to move there since its warm and rains a lot. It doesn't rain enough in AZ.

 

[Riscatto]

Have you looked into their internship? I did it last year and would highly recommend it! That's actually the same career goal I have now, but I'd also love to work in my home zoo as well. I just wouldn't get free admission to Epcot....

I have looked into their internship. I started working on the prereqs, but wound up realizing I didn't enjoy conservation at all. Given that it is such a difficult field and you must really love it to do it. I think I would be more satisfied with learning about it and having chances here and there to work on wildlife in some way. I'm hoping someday to at least treat a bear in some way.

Quick question where can I get more info on internship vs. residency vs. fellowship. I understand the terms in medical, but not so much in vet med unless there the same thing.

 

[WildZoo]

I want to end up in Florida one day 🙂 born and raised there. I like the weather, but I will miss having seasons...

I was raised here but born in Philly and spent the last 4 school years in Pittsburgh. I am not a fan of the weather here most of the time. Definitely miss the burgh.

 

[pp9]

I have looked into their internship. I started working on the prereqs, but wound up realizing I didn't enjoy conservation at all. Given that it is such a difficult field and you must really love it to do it. I think I would be more satisfied with learning about it and having chances here and there to work on wildlife in some way. I'm hoping someday to at least treat a bear in some way.

Quick question where can I get more info on internship vs. residency vs. fellowship. I understand the terms in medical, but not so much in vet med unless there the same thing.

Long story short: An internship is generally a 1 year post-DVM program that provides you with additional training under the supervision of clinicians. A residency is a 3+ year program specifically designed to prepare a resident for the exam/field in which they hope to be boarded. A resident can be less supervised than interns and often are responsible for teaching, seeing their own appointments, etc. I believe fellows are significantly more researched based.

 

[DVMDream]

I will never miss scraping snow/ice off of my car, I will never miss having to have two different wardrobes, I will never miss -15F temperatures, I will never miss the threat of slipping onto my ass due to ice, I will never miss the horrible road conditions

I will thoroughly enjoy that in the middle of January I can roll out of bed at the time I always do, I don't have to worry about going outside 30 minutes early to warm up the car and scrape off ice and snow, I also don't have to worry about bundling up in 3-4 layers of clothing. I won't even have to own that much clothing. I will thoroughly enjoy these things.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Long story short: An internship is generally a 1 year post-DVM program that provides you with additional training under the supervision of clinicians. A residency is a 3+ year program specifically designed to prepare a resident for the exam/field in which they hope to be boarded. A resident can be less supervised than interns and often are responsible for teaching, seeing their own appointments, etc. I believe fellows are significantly more researched based.

Fellowships in veterinary medicine are odd ducks because they are usually postdoc type positions that culminate in a research degree, usually PhD (which confuses people at first because traditionally a post-doc is what you do after a PhD, but because we already have a doctoral degree - i.e. the DVM - we are pretty much considered postdocs). They aren't even always referred to as "fellowships" per se. Most of them are NIH-funded like mine, and some are combined with residencies (kind of like a DVM/PhD program except residency/PhD) depending on the specialty. There are also a few one to two year "fellowships" in very, verrry specific areas that are usually subdivisions of larger specialties, but those tend to be quite rare (and usually don't pay very much, unfortunately).

 

[Starry-chan]

LIS said it well....you will be thoroughly discouraged on SDN and in your school/summer jobs when you mention you want to pursue zoo. Most people who discourage you don't always know the stats/process that well themselves, but that's not always the case. All you can do is get really good grades (yes, you have to do very well in vet school), letters of rec/connections, and preferably some research experience and publications before you apply to a residency. The boarding exam is easily one of the hardest boarding exams out there (I've only heard pathology as being as impossibly difficult as zoo), and you will have to work hard to find a job. For both residencies and jobs, you must be prepared to move (cross-country, even). You won't make much when you consider the ~10 years you put into post-bac education, but if it's what you want, then go for it. Just remember to be realistic along the way, and be prepared for subtle cutthroat competition throughout vet school.

Whoa. That makes vet school look tame 😱😱😱😱😱

I wish. AZ is like a giant pot of parvo virus, we'd see multiple cases every day during the summer and again at the end of fall and into winter. I hate, hate, hate parvo. Same goes for distemper. It isn't quite as common as parvo, but way more common than anyone would like.

And if I hear one more professor or clinician tell students that they will "never see distemper". I might have to smack them upside the head with a pool noodle.

I live in the southwest and I freaking HATE parvo. I hate how those maternal antibodies make it so you don't know if the vaccinations have given your puppy immunity until it is four months old. The puppy still has to get socialized. So, you have to gamble with it's life every time you take it off your property. Of course, there are things you can do to minimize the risk (e.g. don't let them walk on the floor at PetsMart), but it still worries the crud outta me.

 

[missdarjeeling]

Fungal in general is pretty rare in the northeast. We get occasional heartworm, mostly from dogs that come from elsewhere. Even parvo's fairly uncommon. We're pretty tame here in terms of infectious diseases.

Except for Lyme and Anaplasma galore with the occasional erlichia thrown in. Every dog and their mothers is positive for something. I hate 4dx on asymptomatic patients. It's the bain of my existence.

That's interesting. In western NY, we'd see maybe 20ish cases or a little more throughout spring and summer. So not really uncommon but not that common, either. I never saw a HW positive dog up there and have only seen one down here in Virginia that wasn't brought in from the South.

Interesting about Anaplasma, too. Back in NY, Lyme was uncommon enough that my old vet never even offered the vaccine to me, and even though they did a 4dx, the doctor never discussed anything other than HW. Lyme is fairly common down here, though, and Ehrlichia is spreading to the point where we're seeing more Ehrlichia positives than Lyme. I've never seen an Anaplasma positive, but I wonder if it'll spread the way Lyme has been spreading. And, yeah, the doctors get tired of having to talk about it over and over again, so I can't imagine how much time you have to put into those talks with a million more positives than we have. Luckily for our doctors, if a patient was previously positive and is still positive but asymptomatic, they can pawn off the follow up phone calls on us assistants.

 

[Starry-chan]

Fellowships in veterinary medicine are odd ducks because they are usually postdoc type positions that culminate in a research degree, usually PhD (which confuses people at first because traditionally a post-doc is what you do after a PhD, but because we already have a doctoral degree - i.e. the DVM - we are pretty much considered postdocs). They aren't even always referred to as "fellowships" per se. Most of them are NIH-funded like mine, and some are combined with residencies (kind of like a DVM/PhD program except residency/PhD) depending on the specialty. There are also a few one to two year "fellowships" in very, verrry specific areas that are usually subdivisions of larger specialties, but those tend to be quite rare (and usually don't pay very much, unfortunately).

How did you get into your pathology residency? Were you near the top of your class when you were in vet school? Did you know a lot of people in pathology? I was always curious about this because it seems like you got into something that's extreeeeemely hard to get into, but I didn't really think to ask ya until now 😛

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

How did you get into your pathology residency? Were you near the top of your class when you were in vet school? Did you know a lot of people in pathology? I was always curious about this because it seems like you got into something that's extreeeeemely hard to get into, but I didn't really think to ask ya until now 😛

Ahahah - nowhere near the top. I was in the bottom quartile with a B- average. And this was definitely a problem because the top path programs (not all, but a lot) can be very grade -focused due to competitiveness. However, I had tons of path experience - every summer, every winter break, I was off doing externships or doing research or something of the sort. I worked as lab animal tech and then an emergency clin path tech during school itself for three years. I rocked all my path electives. My LORs were awesome (I was flat out told in my interviews that this was the biggest reason they were interested in me - I had a researcher/prof at a med school, a double-boarded (anatomic and clinical) vet pathologist, and the associate dean of research for the vet school writing them). It was the dedication I showed to the field that got me in and overcame the grades. People want to see that you're serious about wanting to go into whatever specialty it is.

However, the grades definitely hurt me. I have never been a "classroom" person, plus in third year I had some personal issues that made my grades tank. Then, our fourth year (where I actually really came into my own) was pass/fail so too bad, so sad, your GPA was set after the three classroom years. I had several programs pass over me simply because of that. Grades are not the be all and end all, things CAN make up for them (I am living proof of that) but you cannot just assume that everything else will make up for it.

My program took a chance on me in some ways (they usually have at least 40 applicants per spot and they are one of the best in the country, I still don't know why they chose me - I had mad imposter syndrome for a while), and thankfully I did them proud.

 

[Starry-chan]

Ahahah - nowhere near the top. I was in the bottom quartile with a B- average. And this was definitely a problem because the top path programs (not all, but a lot) can be very grade -focused due to competitiveness. However, I had tons of path experience - every summer, every winter break, I was off doing externships or doing research or something of the sort. I worked as lab animal tech and then an emergency clin path tech during school itself for three years. I rocked all my path electives. My LORs were awesome (I was flat out told in my interviews that this was the biggest reason they were interested in me - I had a researcher/prof at a med school, a double-boarded (anatomic and clinical) vet pathologist, and the associate dean of research for the vet school writing them). It was the dedication I showed to the field that got me in and overcame the grades. People want to see that you're serious about wanting to go into whatever specialty it is.

However, the grades definitely hurt me. I have never been a "classroom" person, plus in third year I had some personal issues that made my grades tank. Then, our fourth year (where I actually really came into my own) was pass/fail so too bad, so sad, your GPA was set after the three classroom years. I had several programs pass over me simply because of that. Grades are not the be all and end all, things CAN make up for them (I am living proof of that) but you cannot just assume that everything else will make up for it.

My program took a chance on me in some ways (they usually have at least 40 applicants per spot and they are one of the best in the country, I still don't know why they chose me - I had mad imposter syndrome for a while), and thankfully I did them proud.

Yeah, I can understand the imposter syndrome, I would have probably felt the same way. I'm glad you were able to do a good job! I hope you have those feelings under control now and can get maximum enjoyment out of your job...phD study....whatever the heck you're doing 😀

Off topic but the more I hear about pre-vet and vet school grades, the more they sound like a roll of the dice. I see how they can be partially controlled by learning study skills and trying hard, but I also see that so much outside of one's control affects them too like how well suited one is for a learning environment, life issues, how a professor grades, etc. It seems like when somebody is able to rock out lots of A's it's as much luck as it is skill.

What do you guys think about this? Would you say it's so? Or are some students so skilled (or mentally suited to this kind of learning) that they could get A's despite almost anything? @Minnerbelle I especially wanna hear from you on this one 😉

 

[CalliopeDVM]

...the more I hear about pre-vet and vet school grades, the more they sound like a roll of the dice. I see how they can be partially controlled by learning study skills and trying hard, but I also see that so much outside of one's control affects them too like how well suited one is for a learning environment, life issues, how a professor grades, etc. It seems like when somebody is able to rock out lots of A's it's as much luck as it is skill.

What do you guys think about this? Would you say it's so? Or are some students so skilled (or mentally suited to this kind of learning) that they could get A's despite almost anything? @Minnerbelle I especially wanna hear from you on this one 😉

Of course. Isn't that always true about all testing and evaluation, all throughout life? I don't think they're as variable as a roll of the dice, but they are certainly reliant on external circumstances and internal variations - at least beyond how much we can control those things. We can try to exert some control over the variables in order to minimize their effect when possible, but it's never a totally equal playing field. I hope nobody thinks it is, or ever could be. I don't think much of it is "luck", but it's not just skill either - it's also a talent in learning to get the most (of what you need) out of an imperfect situation. That's more an art than a skill, I think. I have dyslexia, but have learned over the years that there are ways of minimizing the effect of it on what I do. Someone else might not learn well in a lecture-hall type of situation, so has figured out a way of learning the material in a different way (yea) or not (boo).

 

[Starry-chan]

Of course. Isn't that always true about all testing and evaluation, all throughout life? I don't think they're as variable as a roll of the dice, but they are certainly reliant on external circumstances and internal variations - at least beyond how much we can control those things. We can try to exert some control over the variables in order to minimize their effect when possible, but it's never a totally equal playing field. I hope nobody thinks it is, or ever could be. I don't think much of it is "luck", but it's not just skill either - it's also a talent in learning to get the most (of what you need) out of an imperfect situation. That's more an art than a skill, I think. I have dyslexia, but have learned over the years that there are ways of minimizing the effect of it on what I do. Someone else might not learn well in a lecture-hall type of situation, so has figured out a way of learning the material in a different way (yea) or not (boo).

Speaking of dyslexia, I watched a series that followed some students through their clinical year at the royal veterinary college, and one of the students had dyslexia. I was impressed by her ability to graduate despite having a disability. If you don't mind me asking, what were the ways your dyslexia made vet school more challenging and what were your strategies for defeating it? I'm curious to know 🙂

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Speaking of dyslexia, I watched a series that followed some students through their clinical year at the royal veterinary college, and one of the students had dyslexia. I was impressed by her ability to graduate despite having a disability. If you don't mind me asking, what were the ways your dyslexia made vet school more challenging and what were your strategies for defeating it? I'm curious to know 🙂

My dyslexia had been identified about 25 years earlier when I was in grade school (I was a non-trad vet student, graduating when I was 38 years old). I'd managed over the intervening years to improve my reading comprehension and numeracy so well that I had almost forgotten I was dyslexic at all.......it was only when the increased volume (and therefore speed and stress) of vet school arrived that I found myself making dyslexic errors again, mostly in writing rather than in reading. (I think my reading was helped by context and didn't always rely on the specific spelling, though I still have trouble with words like "abdomen".) Like most mental abilities and disabilities, there are variations in scope and amplitude. My dyslexia now seems to be primarily in the writing rather than the reading side of things, and now (unlike when I was in grade school in the late 60s), I have spell check to help me. Even if the words aren't in the spell check dictionary, the highlighted word alerts me to double check my spelling/typing. Handwriting at work is still occasionally a problem, but less commonly than when I was under the stress of vet school......I would occasionally re-read some notes and discover that I'd written "lived" instead of "liver", for instance.....Again, context was always there to help me sort out my errors. Numbers and calculations were always double checked, and as I began doing things more frequently, I got used to what to expect (I know the dose of drug X for a patient of approximately 4kg should visually be about Y volume). Still, I double and sometimes triple check my drug calculations, because a mistake can sometimes be fatal. I still have difficulty with left and right (though that's not limited to dyslexics, of course), but so far I've never splinted the wrong leg.

I guess my strategies were mostly around taking the time to proofread and recheck my calculations, and to understand the big picture and context to help my understanding, so I don't rely as much on the specific word.

 

[PrincessButterCup]

Fellowships in veterinary medicine are odd ducks because they are usually postdoc type positions that culminate in a research degree, usually PhD (which confuses people at first because traditionally a post-doc is what you do after a PhD, but because we already have a doctoral degree - i.e. the DVM - we are pretty much considered postdocs). They aren't even always referred to as "fellowships" per se. Most of them are NIH-funded like mine, and some are combined with residencies (kind of like a DVM/PhD program except residency/PhD) depending on the specialty. There are also a few one to two year "fellowships" in very, verrry specific areas that are usually subdivisions of larger specialties, but those tend to be quite rare (and usually don't pay very much, unfortunately).

WTF, what research are you doing for your PhD? If you want to work as a pathologist at a university, do you have to have a PhD in x, y, or z, or does any biological research "count"?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

WTF, what research are you doing for your PhD? If you want to work as a pathologist at a university, do you have to have a PhD in x, y, or z, or does any biological research "count"?

Biomedical Science dept - specifically inflammatory bowel disease and colorectal cancer, both mouse models and human pts. Most of the time you just do your PhD under whatever department the vet grad school or path department is in, although I do know a few people that have branched out a little bit into stuff like Biomed Engineering. The actual title of the PhD is usually Biomedical Science, Veterinary Science, Pathobiology, etc - stuff like that.

 

[Starry-chan]

Biomedical Science dept - specifically inflammatory bowel disease and colorectal cancer, both mouse models and human pts. Most of the time you just do your PhD under whatever department the vet grad school or path department is in, although I do know a few people that have branched out a little bit into stuff like Biomed Engineering. The actual title of the PhD is usually Biomedical Science, Veterinary Science, Pathobiology, etc - stuff like that.

Oh, wow. So, the results of your research could end up advancing human medicine too?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Oh, wow. So, the results of your research could end up advancing human medicine too?

Well, the goal of my research is advancing human health as the primary objective. I doubt anything I am researching could help animals, at least not in the near future. Veterinary-focused research doesn't get much funding $$ - NIH pays my salary so it's all human disease/animal models for me. So among my slew of other side projects, I'm working with biopsy samples (for gene expression, proteomics, the works) from actual patients in order to hopefully correlate some of the stuff we have found in mice relating to an understudied pathway in IBD (potential biomarkers and all that fun stuff).

 

[Starry-chan]

I doubt anything I am researching could help animals, at least not in the near future. Veterinary-focused research doesn't get much funding $$

Yeah, I hear ya. I'm huge into the coat color genetics of dogs and I want to one day learn the genetics for every color and every pattern! ....but I'm stuck with what I already know because little, if any, research is going on. The funding situation is probably why 🙁

Some colors/patterns are well understood (e.g. brindle and it's variations) while others we basically know nothing about (e.g. what causes the symmetrical white patterns in northern breeds like Siberian Huskies.)

 

[lilylilac]

Veterinary-focused research doesn't get much funding $$ - NIH pays my salary so it's all human disease/animal models for me.

What's awesome is taking an NIH-funded research project with an underlying veterinary focus and spinning it to also be applicable to humans. I studied the effects of endocrine disruptors on the development of uterine disorders, specifically pyometra and equine endometrosis. Twisted that into the possibility that endocrine disruptors can also impact the etiology and progression of human immune-related and fibrotic uterine diseases. But everyone I ever talked to couldn't get past the idea that I was studying two (mainly) veterinary diseases at a human-centric university.

 

[OtterMayhem]

What about specializing in internal medicine? Can you still work with a GP? I didn't want to work in a full on internal medicine practice where I would be referred patients. I'd like to work in a GP but be specialized. My bf says I probably wouldn't make the same money. I read on some website that probably isn't accurate that for internal medicine the salary is 120,000. Is this correct? Thanks!

 

[DVMDream]

What about specializing in internal medicine? Can you still work with a GP? I didn't want to work in a full on internal medicine practice where I would be referred patients. I'd like to work in a GP but be specialized. My bf says I probably wouldn't make the same money. I read on some website that probably isn't accurate that for internal medicine the salary is 120,000. Is this correct? Thanks!

Are you looking to do GP work and internal medicine work?

I'm not sure what your goals are here... do you want to do GP work or internal medicine work? The point of internal medicine is that you are referred patients to you from GP's.

Also a general practice is unlikely to be able to provide all of the tools/equipment that you need to effectively practice internal medicine. You will need that internal medicine practice with access to all of the diagnostic tools.

And your boyfriend is probably right... you aren't going to be able to make similar money as an internal medicine specialist working out of a GP office. Not sure that is even a thing nor do I really see how it is possible.

 

[twelvetigers]

What about specializing in internal medicine? Can you still work with a GP? I didn't want to work in a full on internal medicine practice where I would be referred patients. I'd like to work in a GP but be specialized. My bf says I probably wouldn't make the same money. I read on some website that probably isn't accurate that for internal medicine the salary is 120,000. Is this correct? Thanks!

If you want GP pay, work for a GP. If you want IM pay (your above number may be a little generous, but that depends on where in the country you are) then you should work for a clinic that specifically hires board certified folks. That's gonna be some type of specialty hospital, or like a Blue Pearl. You will see specialty cases - the more in depth sort - and you will have more tools to work with, like scope and ultrasound and probably advanced imaging, as well as other specialists on site (radiologists, cardiologists maybe, some surgeons).

A GP can do some IM type things. We have a scope at my small practice. But you won't get paid as well, and you'll see plenty of itchy dogs and vaccines and diarrhea and whatnot. A GP won't be able to pay you that increased salary because they only need a GP vet. Maybe you could get more based on experience, but to be enough to warrant those extra four years of training? Probably not.

 

[Minnerbelle]

What about specializing in internal medicine? Can you still work with a GP? I didn't want to work in a full on internal medicine practice where I would be referred patients. I'd like to work in a GP but be specialized. My bf says I probably wouldn't make the same money. I read on some website that probably isn't accurate that for internal medicine the salary is 120,000. Is this correct? Thanks!

Why would you want to go through the extra years of training with poor pay to continue being a GP? It might make the 1- 5% of your own caseload that would benefit from an IM consult more fun, but that's about it.

As a GP you're probably going to be looking at primarily internal referrals from your own hospital. Depending on hospital size, that may mean different things. At let's say the 4-5 doc practice where I work, it may be kind of nice to have an internist in house because you won't have to refer out for scopes and ultrasounds, and it would be nice to have an internist to round with on tough cases. If let's say you do 1 scoping procedure ($2000) a month and 2 ultrasounds per week ($300). These are just numbers I'm throwing out there which may or may not reflect pricing in your area. That's $4000 in extra revenue per month, which will get you $800 in income per month. Honestly, that would so not be worth it for the years of residency training (even if you doubled that). If you're operating as a GP then you're not charging internal medicine consult fees, and you're likely not poaching your co-workers difficult IM cases, just providing the diagnostics. That's just not how you make money as an IM specialist.

As for salary, it's going to be wildly different depending on where you work (both geographic location and the specific hospital you work at). I earned $100k+ as a GP last year one year after graduating. Let's say I'm lucky and I continue earning that for the next few years. To go back and do an internship/residency, I would be giving up $70k per year for 4 years!!! I can't justify that kind of money (and the extra interest I would accrue on my student loans due to low payments) unless I was planning on at least making up for it later. And that just won't happen if I go back to working as a GP with some extra toys. I would need to be working on a referral basis on very sick patients that need more than just a scan here or there. Outpatient ultrasounds can be lucrative if you do enough of it, just not if you're doing a few for your own hospital's patients. And as a GP I can tell you I certainly would not choose to refer my own patient to another GP even if they are boarded internists.

 

[jmo1012]

What about specializing in internal medicine? Can you still work with a GP? I didn't want to work in a full on internal medicine practice where I would be referred patients. I'd like to work in a GP but be specialized. My bf says I probably wouldn't make the same money. I read on some website that probably isn't accurate that for internal medicine the salary is 120,000. Is this correct? Thanks!

If you are looking to be a specialist but general practitioner, you might look into ABVP canine/feline certification.

 

[dyachei]

If you are looking to be a specialist but general practitioner, you might look into ABVP canine/feline certification.

which doesn't generally increase your earning potential. But still something to look into

 

[OtterMayhem]

Thank you all for your answers, I'm still in undergrad but I'm just thinking about the future and I know that could all change when I get to vet school. I wasn't really sure if it was possible for an IM to work in a GP, from your answers it seems not really, or at least it wouldn't be worth it. As of now, I'd like to work in a small animal GP, I just wanted more knowledge on diseases. My kitty died of FIP and I went to my family vet and I just wished he had knew more. What exactly is ABVP canine/feline certification? What can that get me in the terms of knowledge and maybe pay?

 

[jmo1012]

which doesn't generally increase your earning potential. But still something to look into

i've heard varying things about increased earning potential for those who have taken the time to complete the certification. i'm sure it greatly varies on the community's ability to support/want this sort of practitioner though

 

[dyachei]

i've heard varying things about increased earning potential for those who have taken the time to complete the certification. i'm sure it greatly varies on the community's ability to support/want this sort of practitioner though

yeah and how long you've been practicing in the area. There are multiple vets I think would gain no benefit from this. Because they already have a reputation in the community for being able to handle the difficult cases.

 

[epivetlove]

. What exactly is ABVP canine/feline certification? What can that get me in the terms of knowledge and maybe pay?

http://www.abvp.com/

As mentioned, there may or may not be an any additional benefits as far as salary goes.

 

[OtterMayhem]

http://www.abvp.com/

As mentioned, there may or may not be an any additional benefits as far as salary goes.

What is the difference between this or board certification? Why would someone pick one over the other?

 

[epivetlove]

What is the difference between this or board certification? Why would someone pick one over the other?

This certification is based on practice experience. You'll have to read about what is required to sit for the boards, but I believe it's something like 5 years6 years of practice seeing X amount of cases that have to do with whatever specialization (Bovine, Canine/Feline, Avian, Shelter, etc.) you're interested in and there is likely a publication requirement or maybe something to do with writing case reports. You do not have to complete an internship and residency to be qualified, but you can do so in order to sit for boards earlier.

Edit: Why someone would pick one over the other? I'm not sure. I would likely go this route over the internship/residency route due to financial reasons, i.e. you would theoretically make a better salary going the practice route vs. the internship/residency route, but whether or not it would change your income potential after becoming boarded, who knows?

 

[DVMDream]

I have heard some "rumors/opinions" going around that ABVP is really nothing important or worthwhile. How "correct" those opinions are, I am not sure. But I can see why they are being stated.

 

[Caia]

I asked some faculty about it when we were discussing internships/externships/specialties/etc. and they had said that people will often do it more for themselves out of interest than anything else. I.e. not expecting to increase their salary.

 

[epivetlove]

I was just reading on VIN about ABVP certification and of the doctors who were boarded, they commented that they felt it was worth it because it a) pushed them to practice better medicine and b) they were able to treat more patients in-house instead of referring them which generated more income for their practice. So, there is the potential for more money, but I don't think it's what most practitioners that go this route are aiming for.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I asked some faculty about it when we were discussing internships/externships/specialties/etc. and they had said that people will often do it more for themselves out of interest than anything else. I.e. not expecting to increase their salary.

I think this is true particularly for the feline/canine certifications. I think it may be beneficial for something like Avian, where bird owners really should be looking for someone who is good with birds. It's a way to get letters behind your name for quick identification that you know something about birds. Unless going by word of mouth, I know a lot of parrot owners who are quite drawn by vets with avian certifications.

 

[JJ1019]

I've heard similar stories. I had a friend that said he knew a guy who was working at Starbucks, despite having graduated from law school.

I shadowed an equine vet who told me she'd rather have a job at starbucks. When you mess up someone's coffee no one dies, and even though it might get boring, there's really no stress and decent hours. I thought it was kinda sad...but true.

 

[pirateyoho]

Why would you want to go through the extra years of training with poor pay to continue being a GP? It might make the 1- 5% of your own caseload that would benefit from an IM consult more fun, but that's about it.

As a GP you're probably going to be looking at primarily internal referrals from your own hospital. Depending on hospital size, that may mean different things. At let's say the 4-5 doc practice where I work, it may be kind of nice to have an internist in house because you won't have to refer out for scopes and ultrasounds, and it would be nice to have an internist to round with on tough cases. If let's say you do 1 scoping procedure ($2000) a month and 2 ultrasounds per week ($300). These are just numbers I'm throwing out there which may or may not reflect pricing in your area. That's $4000 in extra revenue per month, which will get you $800 in income per month. Honestly, that would so not be worth it for the years of residency training (even if you doubled that). If you're operating as a GP then you're not charging internal medicine consult fees, and you're likely not poaching your co-workers difficult IM cases, just providing the diagnostics. That's just not how you make money as an IM specialist.

As for salary, it's going to be wildly different depending on where you work (both geographic location and the specific hospital you work at). I earned $100k+ as a GP last year one year after graduating. Let's say I'm lucky and I continue earning that for the next few years. To go back and do an internship/residency, I would be giving up $70k per year for 4 years!!! I can't justify that kind of money (and the extra interest I would accrue on my student loans due to low payments) unless I was planning on at least making up for it later. And that just won't happen if I go back to working as a GP with some extra toys. I would need to be working on a referral basis on very sick patients that need more than just a scan here or there. Outpatient ultrasounds can be lucrative if you do enough of it, just not if you're doing a few for your own hospital's patients. And as a GP I can tell you I certainly would not choose to refer my own patient to another GP even if they are boarded internists.

I'm curious. I worked at a practice that had its own scope and ultrasound and I know we frequently got referrals from other GPs, but I'm 99% sure the vet wasn't board certified in anything. He also did a lot of orthopedic surgeries that I normally wouldn't expect from a GP. So I'm wondering, how much does it vary by individual what you can do as an un-specialized GP? Is there ever a point where you're basically obligated to refer a patient to a specialist, or is it just a subjective call when you've reached the limits of your expertise/equipment?

 

[Minnerbelle]

As a veterinarian you can do just about anything if you really wanted to. It's just a matter of whether or not you are trained properly in it (easier for some procedures than others), and how likely it's going to bite you in the ass if something goes wrong. There are plenty of people who don't know what they're doing offering services they shouldn't be. You can do whatever you want so long as you can do it properly. But if it's a procedure that most other general practitioner won't touch, and you DIDN'T at least offer referral, and the case has an adverse outcome, you're opening yourself to a lawsuit and board complaint.

I worked at a practice with both ultrasound and scope. I used the ultrasound often for flash ultrasounds, cystos, confirm pyometras, and to look at palpable masses, etc... . But I can assure you that I made my clients understand fully that my ultrasound exams should NOT be considered full ultrasound exams. That essentially I have the equipment and may be able to find obvious things that would change my current recommendations. And that is why I charged a tiny fee for it. It is NOT the same thing as an ultrasound exam performed by an internist or radiologist.

It also depends quite a bit on location. If you're the only hospital with an ultrasound in 100 miles, and the nearest specialist was 4 hours away, then yeah, you may really have no choice but to either learn some of these procedures or go without it. So it's not uncommon with especially many of the old timer GPs to build a reputation for a procedure that they've really honed, and get referrals from other GPs. Sometimes even when there are some boarded folks around, there's "dr x at practice y who is not boarded but can do cruciate surgery (lateral suture) for $900 if you can't afford the $2000+ TPLO with a boarded surgeon" that a lot of clients find attractive.

At least in the area I work, I can't imagine ever referring to another GP for something like an ultrasound when there are so many quality options around. There are some internists in the area even whose ultrasound skills I don't trust based on some cases, that I give all owners the option of seeing a radiologist for the ultrasound. It sucks when you have the vaguely sick pet for whom bloodwork, urine, etc... are inconclusive so an ultrasound is recommended as a next step, and you can't trust the ultrasound report.

I will say, I personally get skeptical of vets who are "really good" at multiple major modalities that take quite a bit of extra training. You can't be great at everything. You can't be one doctor stretched thin on multiple expensive pieces of equipment and be up to date with all of them, AND keep up with the rest of the ever evolving world of medicine and surgery and dentistry. I interviewed at one clinic that had all the toys in the world. I thought maybe there were multiple doctors with each one being good at one or two things. Nope. One old geezer whose protocols for common things made my skin crawl. Like it was beyond being a little old school. It wasn't about practice style. It was WRONG. And I could easily site literature to back me up on that. He sure liked having all the new technology around as if he were a referral hospital. I would not have subjected my pets to any of it even if he had paid me money to do it.