Is vet school too expensive?

[jagger31]

Hello current veterinary students!

Do you regret going to vet school due to the tuition hikes and debt?

I want to work with exotics and wildlife and I honestly can't see how I can do that and pay back 250,000 in debt. This is my dream, but I'm seriously reconsidering applying. I've been looking into PhD programs in Wildlife instead. If you were in my shoes, knowing what you know, what would you do?

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[katryn]

Hello current veterinary students!

Do you regret going to vet school due to the tuition hikes and debt?

I want to work with exotics and wildlife and I honestly can't see how I can do that and pay back 250,000 in debt. This is my dream, but I'm seriously reconsidering applying. I've been looking into PhD programs in Wildlife instead. If you were in my shoes, knowing what you know, what would you do?

This question is very situational..... Do you have an instate school? Would you be living off of student loans, or are you already in the area and could live at home/with someone who doesn't care to put you up rent free? Have you honestly calculated what your student loans will be or did you pick 250k out of the air? And would you be able to achieve the same things with a PhD that draw you to a DVM?

If your loans would honestly be that high, even going instate, and you feel you'd get the same satisfaction from a PhD, it's a good consideration. Take the time to actually calculate tuition and the minimum cost of living for the school you would be applying to. Then grab a loan calculator and figure out what you would have to pay and the salary you'd have to make to pay it off in 10 years. (Also, take the salary needed from those calculators with a grain of salt, I know plenty of people who pay way more than the suggested percentage of their salaries to student loans.) Does the math work, or scare the pants off of you?

For me, going instate and having someone to financially support me/pay my living expenses meant that my student loans are not nearly that high, and will be realistic to pay off. Also, I couldn't find any career that I felt would be equally satisfying to what I will be getting with a DVM. Alternate degree paths weren't a good option for me.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Hello current veterinary students!

Do you regret going to vet school due to the tuition hikes and debt?

I want to work with exotics and wildlife and I honestly can't see how I can do that and pay back 250,000 in debt. This is my dream, but I'm seriously reconsidering applying. I've been looking into PhD programs in Wildlife instead. If you were in my shoes, knowing what you know, what would you do?

If you were thinking about going to a more lucrative field, I might say that it's a huge concern... but PhD in wildlife really isn't going to help you much financially either... so if you can go to a school with average debt or less (<$130k), it might not be as much of a financial suicide. What are your expectations in terms of job prospects and salaries as a wildlife PhD?

I have a sister who is in grad school for marine ecology/dolphin behavior type research, and I wonder if she or I will be hurting more in the long run.

 

[RadRadTerp]

I'm in-state, have some support from my parents, and I owe nothing on my undergrad education, so I don't regret it. If after a year of vet school I was looking at a <3.00 GPA, I'd be much more concerned. If I had not been used to this level of academic rigor and only got into very expensive programs, I would not have gone to veterinary school. I can't imagine what it's going to be like for the people who are going to owe more than twice what I will, but I wish them luck.

 

[GellaBella]

If you were thinking about going to a more lucrative field, I might say that it's a huge concern... but PhD in wildlife really isn't going to help you much financially either... so if you can go to a school with average debt or less (<$130k), it might not be as much of a financial suicide. What are your expectations in terms of job prospects and salaries as a wildlife PhD?

I have a sister who is in grad school for marine ecology/dolphin behavior type research, and I wonder if she or I will be hurting more in the long run.

I agree with this.

What do you think you will earn with a PhD?

I can tell you that I have a PhD in microbiology and molecular genetics...not too bad of a field in terms of getting funding. As a post-doc in academia (v. v. difficult right now to get a post doc in industry, and I'm not sure if those exist in your field) you start out at $38k/yr. You're expected to do at least a 3 year post doc with about a $2k/yr raise, so you'll be done with your post doc making about $44k/yr. Most people do a 2nd post doc because it's just so hard to find faculty positions. So repeat another 3 years, now you're up to $50k. Now you get to begin the fight for a faculty position and the whole "publish or perish" thing really starts to sink in as being way too real. You will be in charge of a lab and you will spend your days writing for grants and editing papers so that you can send updates on your grants and pray to the NIH for money.

It's not a pretty life.

I'm not saying that to discourage you, but rather because when I started my PhD I thought "damn, in 5 years, I'll be a Dr. I'll get a good job. I really love research, this will be great!" but I didn't know what being a PI really meant and I realized too far into my program that it was not at all for me. If you can read all that and say "yeah, but it would just be so cool" then by all means, go get a PhD. But personally, I'm switching from a PhD to vet med to hopefully MAKE money someday. If I can pay off these loans

 

[yetze]

Couldn't agree more with GellaBella

PhD stand for "permanantly head damaged", if you want you head to be damaged more, go for a PhD. I am a PhD in molecular biology and still struggling with Postdoc. I don't know where my pathetic life is going.

I agree with this.

What do you think you will earn with a PhD?

I can tell you that I have a PhD in microbiology and molecular genetics...not too bad of a field in terms of getting funding. As a post-doc in academia (v. v. difficult right now to get a post doc in industry, and I'm not sure if those exist in your field) you start out at $38k/yr. You're expected to do at least a 3 year post doc with about a $2k/yr raise, so you'll be done with your post doc making about $44k/yr. Most people do a 2nd post doc because it's just so hard to find faculty positions. So repeat another 3 years, now you're up to $50k. Now you get to begin the fight for a faculty position and the whole "publish or perish" thing really starts to sink in as being way too real. You will be in charge of a lab and you will spend your days writing for grants and editing papers so that you can send updates on your grants and pray to the NIH for money.

It's not a pretty life.

I'm not saying that to discourage you, but rather because when I started my PhD I thought "damn, in 5 years, I'll be a Dr. I'll get a good job. I really love research, this will be great!" but I didn't know what being a PI really meant and I realized too far into my program that it was not at all for me. If you can read all that and say "yeah, but it would just be so cool" then by all means, go get a PhD. But personally, I'm switching from a PhD to vet med to hopefully MAKE money someday. If I can pay off these loans

 

[libster06]

I would waitress the rest of my life before I would embark on a PhD.

 

[RadRadTerp]

I agree with this.

What do you think you will earn with a PhD?

I can tell you that I have a PhD in microbiology and molecular genetics...not too bad of a field in terms of getting funding. As a post-doc in academia (v. v. difficult right now to get a post doc in industry, and I'm not sure if those exist in your field) you start out at $38k/yr. You're expected to do at least a 3 year post doc with about a $2k/yr raise, so you'll be done with your post doc making about $44k/yr. Most people do a 2nd post doc because it's just so hard to find faculty positions. So repeat another 3 years, now you're up to $50k. Now you get to begin the fight for a faculty position and the whole "publish or perish" thing really starts to sink in as being way too real. You will be in charge of a lab and you will spend your days writing for grants and editing papers so that you can send updates on your grants and pray to the NIH for money.

It's not a pretty life.

Wow, you pretty much summed up why I quit my post-bac work at the NIH after doing research from late high school through college and on out for a total of 6 years in the trenches! It took me that long to get past my passion for molecular biology at the bench to see what the bureaucracy was all about.

 

[nyanko]

Well I mean the obvious factor that would make a difference would be the level of indebtedness between a DVM and a Ph.D.

I would agree with your assessments, Minnerbelle and GellaBella, if the indebtedness difference between obtaining the two degrees was even remotely in the same neighborhood as zero. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say that very, very rarely is.

If you're talking about opportunity cost, you'd have to do the math yourself, but I'm still not sure that the way tuition is going (up) and the way federal and state support for education is going (down) would really make up for the cost difference. $0 (or $only undergrad amount) in debt from a Ph.D. is still going to be significantly different from $six figures (or $undergrad amount + $six figures) from a veterinary education, I'd wager.

Even having been around and involved in academia and research for quite some time, to me "publish or perish" still sounds better than anything that occurs in private veterinary practice. So it's not all black and white, IMO.

 

[bbeventer]

I know I am not a vet student, but I work with tons of wildlife grad students and profs and I might be able to help with the financials in that area. I am currently doing work with parasites so my perspective is from that angle but I am sure its about the same across the board. What I have observed is if you are in wildlife and you do research on game animals (Deer, Elk, Turkey, etc.) then you can get a substantial amount of money for research, it seems that there is plenty of money for research in this field. There is even more money if you can tie in that research towards zoonotic diseases or disease that effect domesticated animals preferably food supply animals such as cattle.

There are schools that offer stipens for your schooling. I know my school completely pays for MS and PhD students tuition, except for about 1k of fees. Of course once you get a PhD good luck getting a job.

 

[flyhi]

Well I mean the obvious factor that would make a difference would be the level of indebtedness between a DVM and a Ph.D.

And, that is what i was thinking as i read the post. To make 55k-70k with zero debt a few years down the road, or make the same amount with over 100k in debt...... I'm not sure I get the math. And maybe your potential as a DVM will be that much greater with a PhD, but is it THAT much greater? I hope it is, but just curious.

 

[oldvet]

As a veterinarian that has been there and done that I would not advise you to go to vet school if your desire is exotics, wildlife and your tuition is $250000. The market for exotic, avian, zoo vets is saturated and extremely competitive. To be a paid zoo vet you essentially have to wait til one retires or dies to have a shot at a position. Same with academic or government positions.

If you are interested in small animal med then you will probably be fine as you could find a job in private practice and see exotics in that capacity. You will have a difficult time either way paying off your student loans. Unfortunately that is the reality of vet medicine today. Pay is low and cost for education is high. Good luck

 

[Electrophile]

I'm in-state, have some support from my parents, and I owe nothing on my undergrad education, so I don't regret it. If after a year of vet school I was looking at a <3.00 GPA, I'd be much more concerned. If I had not been used to this level of academic rigor and only got into very expensive programs, I would not have gone to veterinary school. I can't imagine what it's going to be like for the people who are going to owe more than twice what I will, but I wish them luck.

Wait...what?

 

[raineR]

mmm.,I've also wanted to go take up vet med.But never got the chance to.,It's not that expensive unless you go to an ivy league.

 

[Minnerbelle]

mmm.,I've also wanted to go take up vet med.But never got the chance to.,It's not that expensive unless you go to an ivy league.

And, that is what i was thinking as i read the post. To make 55k-70k with zero debt a few years down the road, or make the same amount with over 100k in debt...... I'm not sure I get the math. And maybe your potential as a DVM will be that much greater with a PhD, but is it THAT much greater? I hope it is, but just curious.

I don't think it's that simple, and specifically in this case, job satisfaction vs. availability is very important. I think it really matters what kind of research the OP would be happy doing and what kind of vet practice the OP would be happy with. In either discipline, I feel like the "money spot" jobs in terms of job satisfaction for the OP would be very hard to come by... and to find a decent paying one would be an added challenge. I mean yes, $100k is def not something to take on lightly. But 5-7 years of PhD and 3-6 yrs of postdoc is not trivial either. Unless there's a broad enough range of research that the OP would be happy doing to reasonably ensure a position, the OP could be totally f***ed 8-10+ years later without much to fall back on. If you can't get a decent wildlife research job with a PhD in wildlife... that degree isn't going to help you get jobs in most other fields. And this is just me, but I would never ever ever want to be stuck in academia studying something I wasn't passionate about.

Same goes with a DVM (fewer years I guess, but $100k poorer). If the OP would be unhappy with anything but zoo/exotics predominant practice... then he/she probably shouldn't even bother. But if they would be happy at a SA predominant practice that takes exotics cases (while maybe working on ABVP certification to keep things interesting), it might be worth it.

Or maybe neither is the answer... but I wouldn't suggest going for a PhD just because it might be more affordable than a DVM. Maybe the smartest thing to do is to really soul search and go into another career field with decent pay and not as much investment in education (time/money-wise). Then do wildlife rehab on the side?

 

[libster06]

mmm.,I've also wanted to go take up vet med.But never got the chance to.,It's not that expensive unless you go to an ivy league.

Do you have a money tree in your backyard, or could tell me where the inexpensive vet schools are?

Also, what is an "ivy-league vet school"?

 

[justavet]

There's a sticky over on the prevet forum with the 4 yr cumulative tuition and 4 yr cumulative cost of attendance for all the US, Canadian and Caribbean schools. Not sure that helps determine what an ivy league vet school is, but it will help you determine which ones are expensive and which ones are more expensive.
I made it so let me know if you see anything wrong. Thanks!

 

[StartingoverVet]

Cornell and University of Pennsylvania both have a vet school. They are not both as reputable as UC Davis, Colorado State or NC State, only Cornell is.

They're all expensive, not just those two.

wtf? How did you come to that conclusion? Patchy's vet school ranking service?

 

[libster06]

Cornell and University of Pennsylvania both have a vet school. They are not both as reputable as UC Davis, Colorado State or NC State, only Cornell is.

They're all expensive, not just those two.

Twas a joke.

There are no "ivy-league" vet schools. There are vet schools at Ivy League colleges, but given that there are only 28 schools in the whole country, in the vet profession/world they don't categorize them like that (as you understand since you pointed out a few, CSU, NC State, Davis)l.... and they are all expensive, whether you go to Cornell, Davis, LSU or Oregon. Prestige =/= $$$$

 

[Minnerbelle]

wtf? How did you come to that conclusion? Patchy's vet school ranking service?

LOL, I love how the cutoff for prestige arbitrarily ends just before Penn. Somehow, anything under #3 is not prestigious, which is esp funny considering how the rankings just changed this year and there was a lot of movement between schools.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I would think that Cornell and Penn are the only prestigious vet schools among the general public because of the name only.

Not really trying to pick on you or anything (more a rambling about a related topic), but the general public seems to think that vet school = 2 year programs at a community college. And the general public also thinks penn state = upenn. Even a huge slice of the vet student pool (and i've heard professors even say so) think that the vet school called upenn in PA is at penn state. Quite frankly, most clients don't think much at all about the diploma hanging on their vet's office wall. Those that do have an opinion generally think that the vet school nearest to them is a really really really good school, if not the best.

I do know what you mean though. I have a competitive "friend" who I swear was very relieved that I chose to go to csu over penn. To this day, I honestly still don't get why it mattered, but she felt that from an onlooker's point of view, her going to an md/phd program at a "mediocre" med school is superior to my going to vet school at a "no-name" state school. She would have felt very inferior had I gone to penn. Very sad and pathetic. But I guess that's just how some people operate

 

[libster06]

Not really trying to pick on you or anything (more a rambling about a related topic), but the general public seems to think that vet school = 2 year programs at a community college. And the general public also thinks penn state = upenn. Even a huge slice of the vet student pool (and i've heard professors even say so) think that the vet school called upenn in PA is at penn state. Quite frankly, most clients don't think much at all about the diploma hanging on their vet's office wall. Those that do have an opinion generally think that the vet school nearest to them is a really really really good school, if not the best.

Lol people think I'm in undergrad...

 

[RadRadTerp]

Wait...what?

What I meant was that if I was not doing as well as I am, then I'd be a lot more concerned about my decision to go to vet school. Of course, my grades will probably slip a bit once I get to the harder stuff, but I'm glad I ended first year strongly.

 

[alliecat44]

What I meant was that if I was not doing as well as I am, then I'd be a lot more concerned about my decision to go to vet school. Of course, my grades will probably slip a bit once I get to the harder stuff, but I'm glad I ended first year strongly.

What does this mean about your debt?? I'm confused, too.

 

[libster06]

What I meant was that if I was not doing as well as I am, then I'd be a lot more concerned about my decision to go to vet school. Of course, my grades will probably slip a bit once I get to the harder stuff, but I'm glad I ended first year strongly.

What does this mean about your debt?? I'm confused, too.

Debt repayment =/= based on 3.0 &#8804; GPA.... Congrats though.

 

[Ben and Me]

I would think that Cornell and Penn are the only prestigious vet schools among the general public because of the name only. I don't know which are good or reputable enough among veterinarians, but I wasn't suggesting that fewer than five are good or anything like that.

The general public thinks that the vet school in PA is at Penn State, not UPenn. Actually, so do a lot of the vets and vet students that I've met....

 

[RadRadTerp]

What does this mean about your debt?? I'm confused, too.

You're right. It has no direct effect on my debt, but I guess what I was trying to suggest was that I'd feel a lot worse about the debt with a poorer GPA since I have aspirations of specializing. Also, because of personal factors I mentioned in my first post in this thread, my debt level is not going to be as burdensome as it could be. I hope that clarifies all the questions.

 

[dvmsara]

I don't know who "ranks" vet schools or what the ranks are based on, but the fact of the matter is (virtually) no one gives a **** what school you went to. Certain schools may be better for certain things, but honestly you learn pretty much the same stuff no matter where you go (if not, you wouldn't pass the NAVLE). If a person has the choice to go to their in-state school or one of the more "prestigious" schools that will cost 2-3 times as much, I will tell them to go in-state 100% of the time.

 

[libster06]

I don't know who "ranks" vet schools or what the ranks are based on, but the fact of the matter is (virtually) no one gives a **** what school you went to. Certain schools may be better for certain things, but honestly you learn pretty much the same stuff no matter where you go (if not, you wouldn't pass the NAVLE). If a person has the choice to go to their in-state school or one of the more "prestigious" schools that will cost 2-3 times as much, I will tell them to go in-state 100% of the time.

Not to mention there are some pretty amazing and brilliant minds and all-around stand-up people at every school. LSU is in the bottom of the "ranks" but I can tell you there are many of my peers here who are absolutely mind-boggling intelligent. For whatever reason they went to LSU, but that doesn't make them any less of a vet student or diminish their chances of becoming a successful veterinarian. Likewise, every clinician I have worked with or have been taught by are the best I have come across. They are all extremely competent and are the best at what they do and how they do it.

Fact is, any person able to make it into and get through any vet school is a freaking winner.