Isn't not voting better than casting an ignorant vote?

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SusGob711

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Just thought I'd change the topic from medicine to politics for a bit, lol. I've debated this issue with several people and it seems the general consensus is that since voting is a right, and you should vote whether you're educated and aware of the issues or not. Isn't that irresponsible? Some of my friends/family are kind of upset with me for not voting this election year but I've been so busy I haven't followed the news/debates, etc. like I usually do so I decided to not vote. I'd like to hear everyone's opinions...
 
Just thought I'd change the topic from medicine to politics for a bit, lol. I've debated this issue with several people and it seems the general consensus is that since voting is a right, and you should vote whether you're educated and aware of the issues or not. Isn't that irresponsible? Some of my friends/family are kind of upset with me for not voting this election year but I've been so busy I haven't followed the news/debates, etc. like I usually do so I decided to not vote. I'd like to hear everyone's opinions...

I agree with you. Unfortunately, this isn't really a popular position to take, though... I've joked that I wish we could take a 10-question REALLY EASY test (administered by the polling station computer) to get to the screen where you pick candidates. It would include 10 randomly chosen ridiculously easy questions about the candidates and/or general meaning of some of a new law/referendum/whatever being voted upon (which would be given in passage form). To continue voting, a 6/10 would be required. Unlimited attempts would be allowed w/ a minimum window between attempts of 15 min. This way we could ensure that people realize they're voting on major issues prior to randomly placing dots on a screen! Of course, this would never pass and be ruled unconstitutional if it ever did, but don't you think decisions like this should be made, you know...with some intelligent thought behind them?
 
The logical end of meritocracy is aristocracy, not some fancy version of democracy. I haven't voted since I realized this.

Why must everything be taken to its "end." Sure, there are tendencies toward selfishness in human beings; however, could not measures be taken to avoid the taking of such a "meritocracy" to an aristocracy? As-is, we probably see an Under-representation of high achieving individuals (e.g., those in medicine, business, etc.) than expected due to the busyness of their lives.
 
I agree with you. I hate the campaigns everywhere around election season that encourage people to go vote, especially the ones on campus. They should be encouraging people to become informed and aware about politics instead. Voting will come naturally once people aren't apathetic.
 
Why must everything be taken to its "end." Sure, there are tendencies toward selfishness in human beings; however, could not measures be taken to avoid the taking of such a "meritocracy" to an aristocracy? As-is, we probably see an Under-representation of high achieving individuals (e.g., those in medicine, business, etc.) than expected due to the busyness of their lives.

I agree 100%--not that I feel the upper class is best suited to make the decisions in our communities. That said, I always joke that there probably isn't a single doctor/nurse/etc. on the committee for health care reform. I think the good intentions are there but I don't think anyone of those guys have spent significant time in an ER or in a pediatrician's office, etc.--and they're going to do what to fix health care!?!?!?!? I think most of our politician's don't know the issues well nor how to fix them--how can we expect the average 40-something cracker jack American to be educated if our leaders aren't either? A $160,000 law degree and an expensive campaign does NOT make them educated...
 
I agree with you. I hate the campaigns everywhere around election season that encourage people to go vote, especially the ones on campus. They should be encouraging people to become informed and aware about politics instead. Voting will come naturally once people aren't apathetic.

Why would they encourage people to be informed? Liberal groups prey on college students who will ignorantly vote democrat, and more conservative groups will do the same in a conservative area.

Encouraging people to become "informed and aware" would be counterproductive to them.

End cynical post.
 
Encouraging people to become "informed and aware" would be counterproductive to them.

And that, my friends, just summed up American politics in a single sentence.
 
Why would they encourage people to be informed? Liberal groups prey on college students who will ignorantly vote democrat, and more conservative groups will do the same in a conservative area.

Encouraging people to become "informed and aware" would be counterproductive to them.

End cynical post.

WAiiiit, we're saying we need more educated people to vote, however the educated voter populous ( people in college) you are saying are ignorant, and this is the reason they vote democratic. Not maybe that they are better educated and realize that it's smarter to vote democratic.😕
 
I don't vote anymore because I'm pretty sure that the American Democratic System is a sham due to it still being largely run by America's power elite. It's not votes that matter, it's the people with money who control all the information that in turn, influences the majority of votes that are made, which just so happen to be ignorant.

I agree 100% that no vote is better than an ignorant vote. To paraphrase Winston Churchill, "The best argument against a Democracy can be found in a five minute conversation with the average voter."
 
Not meaning to open up a can of worms (I will anyways), but ignorant votes are a big part of what put Obama in office. Most people were caught up in the hype of it or just excited about making history to prove something. I was called racist for not supporting him, which is far from the truth. I have yet to be impressed by anything he has done. So yes, I think that ignorant votes are worse than not voting. Everyone should exercise their amazing right to vote, but be smart please.
 
In retrospect, believing that a single political candidate could enact any type of real change to Washington may have been ignorant(though I'd say naive is a better word), but that doesn't mean that ignorance didn't also play a large part of the success behind McCain and Palin(or 100% of the entire modern Republican party).

When it comes down to it, our politicians are reflections of the voter populous. If voters weren't easily fooled and distracted by arbitrary nonsense, then the politicians wouldn't peddle it so much.
 
WAiiiit, we're saying we need more educated people to vote, however the educated voter populous ( people in college) you are saying are ignorant, and this is the reason they vote democratic. Not maybe that they are better educated and realize that it's smarter to vote democratic.😕

The college student population is NOT a representation of an educated voter. Sure it's a stereotype but the average college student is NOT aware of the issues, politicians, levies, etc. and is in fact part of the ignorant population. The point being made is that college students are the future educated voters and economy stimulators. It's ludicrous to assume they should be contributing ideas and opinions to politics. In reality, the average college sophomore will believe what his/her peers believe and what is the popular opinion, not what they think is best or right. I know a lot of intelligent, well-educated (much more than me in fact) college students but they are the exception, not the rule.
 
WAiiiit, we're saying we need more educated people to vote, however the educated voter populous ( people in college) you are saying are ignorant, and this is the reason they vote democratic. Not maybe that they are better educated and realize that it's smarter to vote democratic.😕

Smarter in which way?

I went to school in a liberal mecca (where in Colorado could that be...) and smarter, more educated people are just as ignorant and close-minded as uneducated people. They just push different issues.

Educated =/= informed. It just makes them think they are, so they are arrogant.

And people in college are easy to sway. They're young and optimistic. Why can't we have universal healthcare? Why do we need oil? Worthy goals I would admit, but they certainly come at great costs that we have yet to figure out how to overcome.

You made me make another cynical post. Dang, I was trying to stay optimistic, at least on Election Day.
 
It drives me crazy when people don't vote. And it's more than just voting for president, voting for congressman. There are dozens of choices to be made, all of which can impact your life in some small way - add them up and it's soemthing big. Yes, it's better to abstain than to vote for someone you haven't really researched, but the BEST situation is to actually do your homework, decide where you stand, and vote. A lot of the times, your vote is meaningless, but you never know when you might end up in a Bush vs. Gore or Coleman vs. Franken situation where every single individual vote is being fought over and counted carefully.
 
It drives me crazy when people don't vote. And it's more than just voting for president, voting for congressman. There are dozens of choices to be made, all of which can impact your life in some small way - add them up and it's soemthing big. Yes, it's better to abstain than to vote for someone you haven't really researched, but the BEST situation is to actually do your homework, decide where you stand, and vote. A lot of the times, your vote is meaningless, but you never know when you might end up in a Bush vs. Gore or Coleman vs. Franken situation where every single individual vote is being fought over and counted carefully.

Can we leave the thread at this?
 
Not meaning to open up a can of worms (I will anyways), but ignorant votes are a big part of what put Obama in office. Most people were caught up in the hype of it or just excited about making history to prove something. I was called racist for not supporting him, which is far from the truth. I have yet to be impressed by anything he has done. So yes, I think that ignorant votes are worse than not voting. Everyone should exercise their amazing right to vote, but be smart please.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm1KOBMg1Y8

lol
 
1. I doubt any dictator could manage as badly as the masses. Democracy was created because it was supposed to be ethical, not efficient.

2. Pluralism is bad. All ideas should be tested against reality. Crappy ideas do not deserve representation.

3. The ability to reach a high degree of occupational qualification doesn't have much to do with how to govern a society.

I dunno. I've met many intelligent, well-meaning people, but i've met very few people i would trust to run society - including myself. If you handed the reigns of society over to me tomorrow, it would crumble and i would be rapidly usurped in a machiavellian fashion. The same is unfortunately true of you too, and probably everybody else on this forum, no matter how smart and well-meaning we all might be. Having tried my hand at it, i know for certain that effective leadership is so difficult that i don't think we the people are qualified to do it, even as a collective. To me, it makes much more sense to seek out a statistical anomaly who is uncannily gifted in leadership and societal organization and elect him lord and tyrant. When you apply this concept to the idea of an aristocracy, i personally believe that somebody who is literally born to rule with an even hand will do so much more effectively than ten million clods like myself running around like chickens with our heads cut off, arguing about abortion and marijuana and religion and taxes in a never-ending, never-progressing cycle for decades on end.

The only real downside to the idea is the possibility of corruption, but the more one knows about the realities of the current lobby system, election system and socioeconomic pecking order, the less they fear the idea of corruption in alternative systems.

god help me if i ever expect my idea to be put to practice in a million years, but now you know how i think and why i don't vote.

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A lot of the times, your vote is meaningless
You hit the nail on the head, except replace "a lot of the times" with "all the time."

Regardless of who's in office, things don't really change in the long run. Voters can't change things in the long run. Lobbyists, corporations, judges, sometimes protesters, and some politicians, perhaps. But voters cannot. Not in this country.
 
You hit the nail on the head, except replace "a lot of the times" with "all the time."

Regardless of who's in office, things don't really change in the long run. Voters can't change things in the long run. Lobbyists, corporations, judges, sometimes protesters, and some politicians, perhaps. But voters cannot. Not in this country.

Meaningless???? If it isn't enough motivation watching these BAT**** crazy republican teabaggers...then I don't know what is. They want to privatize SS, abolish the department of education, repeal obamacare as they like to call it, and god knows what else; Its funny how quickly the electorate forgets about the past, just 2 years ago we inherited a record deficit, which came from a record surplus under clinton.

Oh, and then there were the 2 asinine wars we didn't need to start (pentagon papers leaked showed we've killed more than 15,000 innocent civilians in iraq, which is equal to FIVE 9/11's); they deregulated wall-street, and now they are talking about getting rid of the EPA after the most catastrophic environmental disaster in american history just occurred. I cannot vote, as I am a permanent citizen, but watching these elections is really demoralizing, and quite frightening, when potential senators include the likes of Rand Paul ,Sharron Angel, and Christine Odonnel....

.
 
It drives me crazy when people don't vote. And it's more than just voting for president, voting for congressman. There are dozens of choices to be made, all of which can impact your life in some small way - add them up and it's soemthing big. Yes, it's better to abstain than to vote for someone you haven't really researched, but the BEST situation is to actually do your homework, decide where you stand, and vote. A lot of the times, your vote is meaningless, but you never know when you might end up in a Bush vs. Gore or Coleman vs. Franken situation where every single individual vote is being fought over and counted carefully.

Basically I agree with this. But each person's vote is just as meaningful as everyone else's, and yes, even in presidential elections where one is voting against the habitual will of his state.

IMHO, I feel like you have less of a moral right to criticize your leaders if you don't even take part in the process of selecting them. Voting for candidates doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing proposition; choose the least destructive, if anything.
 
Oh, and then there were the 2 asinine wars we didn't need to start (pentagon papers leaked showed we've killed more than 15,000 innocent civilians in iraq, which is equal to FIVE 9/11's)...

Dude--try 150,000--as in ONE HUNDRED FIFTY THOUSAND and you'd be wayy closer to the accurate number...You'll never have the slightest idea as to how truly f**ked up our government is. That said--the grass isn't greener on the other side.
 
Meaningless???? If it isn't enough motivation watching these BAT**** crazy republican teabaggers...then I don't know what is. They want to privatize SS, abolish the department of education, repeal obamacare as they like to call it, and god knows what else; Its funny how quickly the electorate forgets about the past, just 2 years ago we inherited a record deficit, which came from a record surplus under clinton.

Oh, and then there were the 2 asinine wars we didn't need to start (pentagon papers leaked showed we've killed more than 15,000 innocent civilians in iraq, which is equal to FIVE 9/11's); they deregulated wall-street, and now they are talking about getting rid of the EPA after the most catastrophic environmental disaster in american history just occurred. I cannot vote, as I am a permanent citizen, but watching these elections is really demoralizing, and quite frightening, when potential senators include the likes of Rand Paul ,Sharron Angel, and Christine Odonnel....
The sooner you resign yourself to it, the sooner you can move on and life life peacefully. Seriously.

People are stupid. Simple as that. People also vote. Even if you are not stupid, people are. That is why your vote, or my vote, will never matter. Will of the people is what matters, and that's something that has remained constantly stupid, throughout history. It doesn't matter what's right or wrong or good or bad or what you and I believe. Fact is, there always have been dumb, vitriolic, immoral politicians in office. There have also been a few good ones. In the end, it all averages out to mediocrity. No single election or series of elections is going to change that. Progress will be made in some areas, and new problems will arise in others. It's the way things have always worked.

Unless you go on to be a big part of a lobbying group or a multimillion/billion dollar corporation or some high position in government or the justice system, you won't change anything.
 
The sooner you resign yourself to it, the sooner you can move on and life life peacefully. Seriously.

People are stupid. Simple as that. People also vote. Even if you are not stupid, people are. That is why your vote, or my vote, will never matter. Will of the people is what matters, and that's something that has remained constantly stupid, throughout history. It doesn't matter what's right or wrong or good or bad or what you and I believe. Fact is, there always have been dumb, vitriolic, immoral politicians in office. There have also been a few good ones. In the end, it all averages out to mediocrity. No single election or series of elections is going to change that. Progress will be made in some areas, and new problems will arise in others. It's the way things have always worked.

Unless you go on to be a big part of a lobbying group or a multimillion/billion dollar corporation or some high position in government or the justice system, you won't change anything.

That is EXACTLY what my dad said to me about a month ago. He said, the sooner you can move on and live with it then sooner you will be happy and live peacefully. And i COMPLETELY agree with that the general consensus is dumb and easily manipulated by our politicians/fox news/coroporations
 
Just thought I'd change the topic from medicine to politics for a bit, lol. I've debated this issue with several people and it seems the general consensus is that since voting is a right, and you should vote whether you're educated and aware of the issues or not. Isn't that irresponsible? Some of my friends/family are kind of upset with me for not voting this election year but I've been so busy I haven't followed the news/debates, etc. like I usually do so I decided to not vote. I'd like to hear everyone's opinions...

Excuse me, we live in the USA, there is no such thing as an ignorant vote…..clearly we take our time and make an educated decision about who wears the nicest suit AND tie on t.v. before casting the vote. So I don't know what your talking about.
 
Just thought I'd change the topic from medicine to politics for a bit, lol. I've debated this issue with several people and it seems the general consensus is that since voting is a right, and you should vote whether you're educated and aware of the issues or not. Isn't that irresponsible? Some of my friends/family are kind of upset with me for not voting this election year but I've been so busy I haven't followed the news/debates, etc. like I usually do so I decided to not vote. I'd like to hear everyone's opinions...
I don't vote, but not only for that reason.

I also don't vote because;

It is an explicit agreement to the process used.
I dislike both of the candidates available and, even with the "none of the above" option, my vote won't actually change anything.
I don't like the way the state or federal government are run.
Voting is the use of force to violently impose your opinion on someone else.
 
I don't vote, but not only for that reason.

I also don't vote because;

It is an explicit agreement to the process used.
I dislike both of the candidates available and, even with the "none of the above" option, my vote won't actually change anything.
I don't like the way the state or federal government are run.
Voting is the use of force to violently impose your opinion on someone else.

No one is forcing you to vote, you have a choice not too. Violently imposing your opinion would be to beat them till they bled. Then beat them some more.

If you don't like the way the country is run either run for president and change it, or just move to Canada.
 
No one is forcing you to vote, you have a choice not too. Violently imposing your opinion would be to beat them till they bled. Then beat them some more.

If you don't like the way the country is run either run for president and change it, or just move to Canada.
Voting is forcing someone else to abide by your opinion, by penalty of violence.
 
That is EXACTLY what my dad said to me about a month ago. He said, the sooner you can move on and live with it then sooner you will be happy and live peacefully. And i COMPLETELY agree with that the general consensus is dumb and easily manipulated by our politicians/fox news/coroporations
For the record, I agreed with all the issues you brought up in your previous post (about teabaggers and the wars and deaths and all that)... but in my experience there's no use getting worked up over them. I just take them for what they are and keep living my own life.
 
I absolutely agree. Voting is a right but also a responsibility, and if you don't take the time to research the issues then I believe you have a responsibility to not cast an uninformed vote. For example, I can't tell you how much it ticked me off hearing about students at my undergrad who voted for Obama because "it's the cool thing to do" or "he's sexy" (seriously heard that one several times). Those are not reasons to vote.
 
The sooner you resign yourself to it, the sooner you can move on and life life peacefully. Seriously.

People are stupid. Simple as that. People also vote. Even if you are not stupid, people are. That is why your vote, or my vote, will never matter. Will of the people is what matters, and that's something that has remained constantly stupid, throughout history. It doesn't matter what's right or wrong or good or bad or what you and I believe. Fact is, there always have been dumb, vitriolic, immoral politicians in office. There have also been a few good ones. In the end, it all averages out to mediocrity. No single election or series of elections is going to change that. Progress will be made in some areas, and new problems will arise in others. It's the way things have always worked.

Unless you go on to be a big part of a lobbying group or a multimillion/billion dollar corporation or some high position in government or the justice system, you won't change anything.

P.S. I completely disagree. In the early 90's one of Michigan's house seats was won by 7 votes.
 
Voting is forcing someone else to abide by your opinion, by penalty of violence.

You aren't voting on your opinion of them, your voting on how you perceive their opinions in relation to certain issues. You vote because you agree with them. When you vote, you don't force their opinions to become yours, you just agree with what their opinions and policies are.

If you argue that the act imposing something on someone else is violent, then a mother forcing her baby to eat food when its refusing is violent. A doctor giving a patient treatment is violent. You aren't saying that "this is my opinion, ill vote for you, but you will succumb to my will." Your saying that "this is your opinion, I agree with you, thus I vote for you."
 
Voting is forcing someone else to abide by your opinion, by penalty of violence.

Nope. Each vote is equal so you aren't forcing anyone to do anything. If it comes to the point that the majority feel a certain way, then you act as a body representing a whole.
 
Nope. Each vote is equal so you aren't forcing anyone to do anything. If it comes to the point that the majority feel a certain way, then you act as a body representing a whole.

One could argue that the majority acting in a certain way itself is violent because it forces the minority to conform to it, which is why voting itself isn't imposing your opinion. Its the act of agreeing or disagreeing with an idea, or not partaking in it. You have the choice to refuse to vote, therefore it nullifies any "violent" notions of it insofar as I cant force my violence on you. Those who do vote, do it on their own free will.
 
WAiiiit, we're saying we need more educated people to vote, however the educated voter populous ( people in college) you are saying are ignorant, and this is the reason they vote democratic. Not maybe that they are better educated and realize that it's smarter to vote democratic.😕

Hardly educated in politics. most ugrads and grad students and even med students I talk to don't pay attn to the news or care to even vote.

The ones that do vote for a party because of their religious beliefs. i had a girl tell me I should vote for bush which i didn't years ago and it was cuz she was very christian she wanted him to win.

There's an old saying that the older you grow the more you vote conservative but the younger you are you vote democratic because liberals favor the issues that affect younger people like education, healthcare reform, etc. but conservatives favor the issues that favor the elder like keeping money in the pockets of elders through reduction of taxes.

Also, the other group of people that love republicans tend to be very highly religious christian types who believe that this is a christian nation rather then a free multi religious nation and that freedom of religion really only applies to freedom of ability to choose what sect of christianity they choose rather then freedom to choose any religion.

I know most republicans fall into one of the categories or more of that of the above which I described. Same with the democrats.
 
Why must everything be taken to its "end." Sure, there are tendencies toward selfishness in human beings; however, could not measures be taken to avoid the taking of such a "meritocracy" to an aristocracy? As-is, we probably see an Under-representation of high achieving individuals (e.g., those in medicine, business, etc.) than expected due to the busyness of their lives.

Are you serious!?

Democracy is doomed for mediocrity; the checks and balances of the system protect us for outrageous injustices, but prevent us from actually getting anything done. Those with the real power in this day and age tend to be Supreme Court Justices setting "precedent" on various cases. Roe v. Wade anyone?

All the members of congress that I have met left me with the strong impression they are conniving jerks.

Meaningless???? If it isn't enough motivation watching these BAT**** crazy republican teabaggers...then I don't know what is. They want to privatize SS, abolish the department of education, repeal obamacare as they like to call it, and god knows what else; Its funny how quickly the electorate forgets about the past, just 2 years ago we inherited a record deficit, which came from a record surplus under clinton.

Oh, and then there were the 2 asinine wars we didn't need to start (pentagon papers leaked showed we've killed more than 15,000 innocent civilians in iraq, which is equal to FIVE 9/11's); they deregulated wall-street, and now they are talking about getting rid of the EPA after the most catastrophic environmental disaster in american history just occurred. I cannot vote, as I am a permanent citizen, but watching these elections is really demoralizing, and quite frightening, when potential senators include the likes of Rand Paul ,Sharron Angel, and Christine Odonnel....

.

Your hero clinton was a great guy. He wanted everyone to have a nice house, so what did he do? he made Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac lower their standards for loan approval. Didn't that pan out well?
 
I hate the filibuster rule. Republicans won't take back the Senate yesterday but they might in 2012. Whether it's democrats or republicans, they deserve to pass legislation they were elected to do. The gridlock is killing the government. Filibuster was almost never used, and now it's the standard on every piece of legislation.
 
Nope. Each vote is equal so you aren't forcing anyone to do anything. If it comes to the point that the majority feel a certain way, then you act as a body representing a whole.
Nope. I didn't agree to be represented by these people; the voters or the politicians. Nor do I want their ideas to be the arbitrary rules by which I am forced to abide on penalty of violence. By voting, you are saying "if we win and you don't agree, too bad, because we will kill you if you don't do what we say."
 
Hi, I'm SDN and I think sociology is a stupid discipline. I know nothing of Marx, Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau, J.S Mill, etc beyond possibly their names, let alone anything about modern political economy or sociology, psychology. I know even less of specific policies and the difficulties of their implementation with regard to current socioeconomic structure and human behavior. Now let me tell you about how government and the economy work.
 
Nope. I didn't agree to be represented by these people; the voters or the politicians. Nor do I want their ideas to be the arbitrary rules by which I am forced to abide on penalty of violence. By voting, you are saying "if we win and you don't agree, too bad, because we will kill you if you don't do what we say."

You have a choice to vote or not, and you basically accept that consequence if you do, therefore its not violent if you have a choice. As to conforming itself, there needs to be a certain level of compromise in order to maintain a functioning society. This may take away some of your rights and privileges, but the exchange is that you get to live in society. Thats the idea of the social contract, voting is just a means of perpetuating that contract.
 
What's the social contract, precious? Also, let's all complain about the available candidates, but do nothing to foster the development of viable third parties in the off years.
 
To continue voting, a 6/10 would be required. Unlimited attempts would be allowed w/ a minimum window between attempts of 15 min. This way we could ensure that people realize they're voting on major issues prior to randomly placing dots on a screen! Of course, this would never pass and be ruled unconstitutional if it ever did, but don't you think decisions like this should be made, you know...with some intelligent thought behind them?

Just to say, with the exception of unlimited attempts, this existed in the past. African Americans had to take insanely hard tests in order to vote. So, you want to make racism a law?


I kid of course (imagine me saying this as Stephen Colbert)
 
What's the social contract, precious? Also, let's all complain about the available candidates, but do nothing to foster the development of viable third parties in the off years.

You have a choice to vote or not, and you basically accept that consequence if you do, therefore its not violent if you have a choice. As to conforming itself, there needs to be a certain level of compromise in order to maintain a functioning society. This may take away some of your rights and privileges, but the exchange is that you get to live in society. Thats the idea of the social contract, voting is just a means of perpetuating that contract.

1. When did I sign this social contract? How do I get out of the social contract? What happens if I get out of the social contract?

2. I am not saying that you are forced to vote, I'm saying that people who vote are forcing me to abide by THEIR opinions, regardless of whether I vote or not.

3. Rights should not be lost to "maintain a functioning society."

"Those who sacrifice Liberty for security deserve neither."

4. Third party candidates that I would vote for cannot affect the change I desire from within the system itself.
 
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