ocwaveoc

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I know very little about foreign med schools. So, I thought I'd inquire. I'm aware of the high quality of SGU and AUC in the caribbean although SGU is quite expensive. What are your thoughts on SGU/AUC vs say Sackler and Ben Gurion in Israel? For this question, please disregard the Palestinian conflick issue. I'm simply wanting some info on education quality, residency comparisons and the "stigma" comparison.
Thanks.
 

McGillGrad

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Because I prefer not to be blown up walking to class and I do not want to hear people speaking languages that sound like they are clearing phlegm from their throats.

Plus, American clinicals are light years ahead of Israeli hospital clinicals.
 
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McGillGrad

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Oh really? And you base that information--offered as fact, I might add--- on what?

It is based on fact. American rotations eclipse anything in Israel.

That is actually not true. Also Ben Gurion students do most of their rotations at Columbia affiliated hospitals? Carib students do their's at Wykoff or the like.

It means absolutely nothing that it is an affiliated hospital besides the sharing of research fellows. Arab countries have Cornell affiliated hospitals (and medical schools), too. That does not mean I would even dream that Arab hospital rotations are even close to American rotations.

I'm not so sure you have researched this subject so well...

Yes, I have. Unlike you, who is emotionally invested and ignoring facts to suit your worldview.
 

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Because I prefer not to be blown up walking to class and I do not want to hear people speaking languages that sound like they are clearing phlegm from their throats.

Plus, American clinicals are light years ahead of Israeli hospital clinicals.

You should do your research before answering a question.


Students in the American programs in Israel ( i.e. Sackler, International Medical School in Ben Gurion, etc. ) do their clinical rotations in the US just like students in the Caribbean, unless they choose to stay in Israel. In addition, students at the BenGurion program have the option, which is integral to their program, of doing part of their clinicals in a third world country.
I have also asked US doctors about these programs. None could comment on Ben-Gurion since its a new program ( Touro now has a program with the Technion as well ) but all the doctors who worked with graduates, or themselves graduated, from Sackler had nothing but positive remarks.

( Disclaimer: I did not/am not, going to these programs due to personal circumstance, but they were options I seriously considered before the present circumstances so I did look into them)
 

McGillGrad

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You should work on your reading skills before making a fool of yourself.

I specifically mentioned that American rotations are far superior to Israeli hospital rotations. You proved my point by pointing out that Israeli have to come to the US to get great training because Israel is not up to snuff.




You should do your research before answering a question.


Students in the American programs in Israel ( i.e. Sackler, International Medical School in Ben Gurion, etc. ) do their clinical rotations in the US just like students in the Caribbean, unless they choose to stay in Israel. In addition, students at the BenGurion program have the option, which is integral to their program, of doing part of their clinicals in a third world country.
I have also asked US doctors about these programs. None could comment on Ben-Gurion since its a new program ( Touro now has a program with the Technion as well ) but all the doctors who worked with graduates, or themselves graduated, from Sackler had nothing but positive remarks.

( Disclaimer: I did not/am not, going to these programs due to personal circumstance, but they were options I seriously considered before the present circumstances so I did look into them)
 

McGillGrad

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Do you have a citation for that, or merely claiming an entitlement to not be challenged on your world view? It would appear the later.



You actually know nothing of my emotional investment. Instead, you are again claiming facts not into evidence. Support your position, retract it, or shout it..I don't really care.

Having done rotations in Israel and the US, I have seen otherwise.

And your experience with Israeli hospital rotations is?

Jackb

In the same post you claim that you do not have an emotional investment in Israeli medical training and then you say that you have done rotations in Israeli hospitals. That is a blatant contradiction in logic. Did you learn that mental wizardry in those Israeli rotations?
 

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[ I would start with post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Best wishes,

Jackb
 
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Jejton

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You should work on your reading skills before making a fool of yourself.

I specifically mentioned that American rotations are far superior to Israeli hospital rotations. You proved my point by pointing out that Israeli have to come to the US to get great training because Israel is not up to snuff.

My dear friend, you have to work on your reading comprehension skills. The OP asked about Israeli medical programs versus Caribbean ones. You answered that you would not go to an Israeli program because, among other things, American clinicals are far superior. Now here is where the logic escapes you. I did not argue that Israeli clinicals are better, but rather that it is a moot point because students in the American programs in Israel have the option of doing their clinicals in the US, and therefore your reason would not apply to the OP. Let me know if I simplified it enough for you.
 

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You should work on your reading skills before making a fool of yourself.

I specifically mentioned that American rotations are far superior to Israeli hospital rotations. You proved my point by pointing out that Israeli have to come to the US to get great training because Israel is not up to snuff.


The main reason why students have the option of doing the clinical rotations in the US is not because the US is better or worse than Israel but because most graduates of these programs will be working in the US and therefore it saves them from having to learn a different system of healthcare once they enter the workforce. They also take the US licensing exams so it would only make sense for them, even if the Israeli rotations were better, to get training in the US.

I do think that the argument is a silly one because the US does have better health care facilities and the training is better here than anywhere else, but doing rotations in Israel does have advantages that the US doesnt have ( as do many countries, which is why most US schools offer study/work abroad programs ). If you do attend an American program in Israel you will have the benefit of having opportunities to work in Israel and the US. That plus a higher academic standard place these programs above the Caribbean programs IMO.
 

Jejton

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In the same post you claim that you do not have an emotional investment in Israeli medical training and then you say that you have done rotations in Israeli hospitals. That is a blatant contradiction in logic. Did you learn that mental wizardry in those Israeli rotations?

I dont know if you are a premed, med student or what but I will ask you a question. Do you have an emotional investment in every single place you have studied and/or worked? You really should take some courses in logical thought.
 

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I've never studied in Israel myself, but I knew many ppl in U.S residencies who graduated from Sackler, and Ben Gurion. That was in 1990s when I worked at Beth Israel in NYC. Some of these guys were in super [email protected] competative residencies. Also, many doctors from leading European countries, U.S and Canada travel to Israel for all kinds of CME seminars, specialty training etc. Israel is known to have one of the best World-class medicine. Many things which are used in vascular surgery, and plastic / reconstructive surgery, and pharma field as well today, have been pioneered by Israili scientists. The info is out there, but it's up to the individuals to do (and more importantly wishing to do) the research before posting.

Hope it helps
 

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Ok, having experienced both the Israeli and American rotations, I think I am in a decent position to contrast the two. The teaching within the Israeli hospitals was for the most part above and beyond what I recieved in american hospitals. In fact, it was often to the point of torture. We were taught and supervised by professors/attendings who actually competed for our time between themselves and often added more time to our daily lectures. I would have rather been seeing sick people during many of these lectures (At least at the time. In retrospect, it was very beneficial and we were responsible for no scutwork). The downside was that I often needed someone to interpret for me during patient encounters as there were far more languages present than I could speak. Of course, this was the norm for a large part of the staff.

In the american hospitals, I was able to function more freely just because of language issues. Of course, I was also more responsible for scutwork and getting things done instead of having an academic experience. Although I recieved excellent teaching on many rotations, often I worked with residents instead of attendings. It was generally not a problem although some of my american counterparts occasionally lamented the fact (ie "All I do is scutwork and the resident won't teach me.").

The truth is, in the end, you will get what you want from whatever experience you choose. Most of medical school is self study. If you put the time in, you will ge the results you want. All students use the same books in the US, Israel ,and the Carribean. The stigma for Israeli schools seems to be less than the Carribean, and you work at major university hospitals with research opportunities and a large patient population. But, in the end, you are still considered an international medical graduate.

I am not certain what the admission criteria are for Carribean schools, but BGU is comparable to most state schools. You should not choose it as a default...you are not likely to be happy in an environment you are not used to with a class full of people interested in international health. Sackler is styled more after american schools and Tel Aviv is a great place to live.

Perhaps someone will post their informed opinions on SGU and AUC, I hear they are both good schools...

PS: The international rotation is not "optional" at BGU.
 

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When I was looking into applying ( about four or five years ago ) it was an option. Students had the option of going to a Third World country, US inner-city hospital or stay in Israel. I guess they have changed things.
 

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When I was looking into applying ( about four or five years ago ) it was an option. Students had the option of going to a Third World country, US inner-city hospital or stay in Israel. I guess they have changed things.


Well, technically you are correct. If students have objections to rotations in developing countries, ie small children, pregnancy, etc, they can request a native american reservation or work with Bedouin in remote areas in Israel. US hospitals are generally not an option.
 

ocwaveoc

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Hi a_ditchdoc,.
Thanks for the reply.
What was your reason for choosing Ben Gurion over the Caribbean schools. Also, did you apply to Sackler? And if so why did you choose BGU?
Thanks.
 

a_ditchdoc

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Ocwaveoc,

Actually, I did not apply to caribbean schools or Sackler. My choices were between american medical schools and BGU. My reasons had much to do with career plans and a strong interest in international health, which is the rimary focus of BGU. I had no real attachment to Israel, so going to an american style program in Israel, ie Sackler, just made no sense to me. Just go where you feel compelled to go. In the end you will learn all you need to learn despite the place. Just remember that choosing a place when they are a lesser alternative to what you want, although you have no real interest in the school, is really not good for you ar the school.

I wish you the best of luck...


ditch
 
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