I've decided to leave after intern year - when should I tell my program?

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David CD

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I'm an intern in a pretty good residency program, and I've decided I'm going to leave at the end of my intern year. Of course I want to pass step 3 and attain a license. The people are generally pretty good here – though I guess you can never be too sure – and I’m not the best intern, but I’m not the worst and they generally like me. This is not the right thing for me though but I would like to give them time to plan, which may include how they go about ranking for the match. I should be able to get a job because I have other qualifications which I’d like to do – but I decided it might be better to tell them now and not to leave everybody high and dry in August or something. I don’t want to leave that type of impression.


I’m just worried about them knowing so long in advance. Would they have any way of denying me finishing my contract or anything like that? I could be very diplomatic and be very honest and fair about it I would hope they would treat me the same in return. I’m planning on it but there are some well-informed people here that I thought might have some advice. Thank you so much –

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If your program is decent, they won't hold this against you. They will look for someone to replace you, and giving them the rest of the year is the best option. If you want them to use the match to do so, the quota change deadline is TODAY at midnight. So, basically, that's not going to happen. But regardless the more notice you give them, the better.

Just be 100% certain this is what you want to do. Your opportunites as a physician with only an intern year are likely to be very limited.
 
I would give extra consideration to the program only if you are relying on a letter from your PD for your next job. Otherwise, I would give them the notice that any other job would require, which is typically somewhere between 2 weeks to 90 days in most cases (read your contract). I suppose I'm cynical, but there are a lot of people who appear reasonable right up until the moment you do something unexpected. In the end, this is a business.
 
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Thanks very much for your replies. I'm interested in non-clinical positions, and I should have some opportunities. I would hope that when I left they would give me the letter to attain a license - the way I look at it, that gives a lot of credibility to the year, and I just hope they would agree to that. In the meantime I would do whatever I could to accommodate the upcoming adjustment. I dunno, I just think its better to do this, than leave them high and dry, as I said. I just don't know what incentive *they* would have to prevent me from finishing the year if I told them I was going to leave. I think they are decent, I think they would understand my decision, and I think its just too small a world to screw over an intern in a way that would greatly reduce my career opportunities, like finding a way to get rid of me sooner than July 1st, with nothing to show for it. Thats why I made this account and thread. Because that would be disastrous.
 
Thanks very much for your replies. I'm interested in non-clinical positions, and I should have some opportunities. I would hope that when I left they would give me the letter to attain a license - the way I look at it, that gives a lot of credibility to the year, and I just hope they would agree to that. In the meantime I would do whatever I could to accommodate the upcoming adjustment. I dunno, I just think its better to do this, than leave them high and dry, as I said. I just don't know what incentive *they* would have to prevent me from finishing the year if I told them I was going to leave. I think they are decent, I think they would understand my decision, and I think its just too small a world to screw over an intern in a way that would greatly reduce my career opportunities, like finding a way to get rid of me sooner than July 1st, with nothing to show for it. Thats why I made this account and thread. Because that would be disastrous.

You are reducing your own career opportunities. You will not likely find much of a job with only one year.
 
You are reducing your own career opportunities. You will not likely find much of a job with only one year.

Please, if you have input based on the question I asked I would appreciate it. That's why I posted the question.
 
Are you hoping to get out of residency because you're unhappy or have you used it as a "stepping stone" to further other career goals? Clinical opportunities will definitely be reduced. That said, its a general assumption unless residency is impacting your life in an awfully negative way that you should finish. Are you unhappy with residency? What's the back story?
 
... Otherwise, I would give them the notice that any other job would require, which is typically somewhere between 2 weeks to 90 days in most cases (read your contract)...

2 weeks is NEVER "typical" notice for a professional job. Maybe if you were quitting from a cashier job at a fast food restaurant this would be reasonable but not for a job where they have to actually review resumes and interview. Few contracts ever will say less than 30 days minimum, and most say 90. The last legal job I left I gave about 3 months notice and they still hadn't found a suitable replacement by the time I was out of there, but everyone thought the timing was fair. As a professional you really always ought to give notice measured in months, not weeks, if you want to leave in their good graces. Let them be the ones to shorten the time if they feel your presence would be disruptive. Never a good idea to unnecessarily burn bridges - it's a small world. This shouldn't really be a "take this job and shove it" kind of exit.

And once you do give notice, continue to do good work. This isn't the window of time to become a lame duck who just doesn't care anymore. If you do that they definitely will terminate you early. And you can still incur medmal liability after you give notice. So always leave on a high note.
 
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Please, if you have input based on the question I asked I would appreciate it. That's why I posted the question.

Not how SDN works. You can pose the initial question, but this is a discussion board and once the topic is out there you don't get to shut down other related lines of discussion. There may be other people contemplating leaving intern year who get value out of those comments that don't benefit you personally.
 
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2 weeks is NEVER "typical" notice for a professional job.

my wife is a physician, who works for an employer that employs thousands of physicians. her contract requires 2 weeks notice, so let's pump the brakes on tossing never around. the range i gave is reasonable, as is the advice to check the contract.
 
my wife is a physician, who works for an employer that employs thousands of physicians. her contract requires 2 weeks notice, so let's pump the brakes on tossing never around. the range i gave is reasonable, as is the advice to check the contract.
I also think it's fair to say that what is contractually required and what is professionally expected are not always the same thing. I've never held a professional level job (two completely different industries that weren't medical) in which at least 30 wasn't the culturally acceptable minimum notice but they would have had trouble writing that into a contract
 
2 weeks is NEVER "typical" notice for a professional job. Maybe if you were quitting from a cashier job at a fast food restaurant this would be reasonable but not for a job where they have to actually review resumes and interview. Few contracts ever will say less than 30 days minimum, and most say 90. The last legal job I left I gave about 3 months notice and they still hadn't found a suitable replacement by the time I was out of there, but everyone thought the timing was fair. As a professional you really always ought to give notice measured in months, not weeks, if you want to leave in their good graces. Let them be the ones to shorten the time if they feel your presence would be disruptive. Never a good idea to unnecessarily burn bridges - it's a small world. This shouldn't really be a "take this job and shove it" kind of exit.

And once you do give notice, continue to do good work. This isn't the window of time to become a lame duck who just doesn't care anymore. If you do that they definitely will terminate you early. And you can still incur medmal liability after you give notice. So always leave on a high note.

What a pile of nonsense. You always have these ridiculous "authority on high" posts which are figments of your own imagination. Who in corporate law gives 3 months notice? Who in corporate *anything* gives 3 months notice? I gave 1 month notice when I transitioned from 1 PhD lab to another. The tech gave 3 weeks notice when she left.

And the bosses give you 0 hrs notice. Suddenly, their professionalism is to fire you unceremoniously, wipe your laptop clean, practically strip search you, dispose of your office supplies/papers/whatever as if you were a terrorist or criminal plotting revenge, etc...

And we've all heard the stories (I've known 2 at least) where people were laid off from corporations after 17 years of work because at 18 years their retirement plans would vest.

OP, you have no obligation to give more than 1 month notice. And this is if you DON'T want anything to do with medicine anymore. If you want to do something medical (and will depend highly on your PD letter), it's best to give warning as early as possible so they can find a PGY2 replacement. Just make sure this is what you really want, because there's no going back.
 
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my wife is a physician, who works for an employer that employs thousands of physicians. her contract requires 2 weeks notice, so let's pump the brakes on tossing never around. the range i gave is reasonable, as is the advice to check the contract.

The expectation for a Professional is 30+ days. I'm telling you this as someone who has written and reviewed literally hundreds of employment contracts. That your wife's contract bucks the trend doesn't really mean you ought to be tossing two weeks around as "typical" or "reasonable". It's actually pretty unusual in this kind of setting.

I agree "never" was too extreme. I should have said except in very rare circumstance, where the parties explicitly contract otherwise.
 
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What a pile of nonsense. You always have these ridiculous "authority on high" posts which are figments of your own imagination. Who in corporate law gives 3 months notice? Who in corporate *anything* gives 3 months notice? I gave 1 month notice when I transitioned from 1 PhD lab to another. The tech gave 3 weeks notice when she left.

And the bosses give you 0 hrs notice. Suddenly, their professionalism is to fire you unceremoniously, wipe your laptop clean, practically strip search you, dispose of your office supplies/papers/whatever as if you were a terrorist or criminal plotting revenge, etc...

And we've all heard the stories (I've known 2 at least) where people were laid off from corporations after 17 years of work because at 18 years their retirement plans would vest.

OP, you have no obligation to give more than 1 month notice. And this is if you DON'T want anything to do with medicine anymore. If you want to do something medical (and will depend highly on your PD letter), it's best to give warning as early as possible so they can find a PGY2 replacement. Just make sure this is what you really want, because there's no going back.
Last couple jobs I've held, two weeks was the minimum, but if you didn't give at least a month, you were burning some serious bridges. What is allowed and what is acceptable are very different things.
 
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What a pile of nonsense. You always have these ridiculous "authority on high" posts which are figments of your own imagination. Who in corporate law gives 3 months notice? Who in corporate *anything* gives 3 months notice? I gave 1 month notice when I transitioned from 1 PhD lab to another. The tech gave 3 weeks notice when she left.

And the bosses give you 0 hrs notice. Suddenly, their professionalism is to fire you unceremoniously, wipe your laptop clean, practically strip search you, dispose of your office supplies/papers/whatever as if you were a terrorist or criminal plotting revenge, etc...

And we've all heard the stories (I've known 2 at least) where people were laid off from corporations after 17 years of work because at 18 years their retirement plans would vest.

OP, you have no obligation to give more than 1 month notice. And this is if you DON'T want anything to do with medicine anymore. If you want to do something medical (and will depend highly on your PD letter), it's best to give warning as early as possible so they can find a PGY2 replacement. Just make sure this is what you really want, because there's no going back.

First, working in a Lab is different than being a professional. Second, I used to write these contracts daily. Third most high ranking people in the corporate world actually do give long notice. Their employers might show them the door that day (but usually still have to pay them if the contract provided for 30 days etc) but often if you are parting on good terms, you might even be asked train your replacement. As mentioned I personally gave three months notice at my last law job. Wasn't a record. But they appreciated it and i left without burning a bridge. Could I have gotten away with 1 month? Probably. Two weeks? Fog without destroying the relationships and breaching my contract. Fourth, firing is not the same thing. You can be fired for cause without notice. Fifth, it's hard to "lay off" a professional without some sort of final months pay or severance. At will, non professional employees, sure. But if you are working under a contract the rules and expectations are different.
 
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Just for the record, as this could be a first, I basically agree with L2D related to attending level positions (not the OPs question, I realize). 60-90 days is becoming increasingly common and placed in contracts. Burning bridges with a departure time when you have clinically scheduled responsibilities that someone else must fill with < 60-90 days notice will get you remembered and folks have a long memory for things like that. If you are the office secretary then 2 weeks is fine, not if you are an attending on a call schedule.
 
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Just for the record, as this could be a first, I basically agree with L2D related to attending level positions (not the OPs question, I realize). 60-90 days is becoming increasingly common and placed in contracts. Burning bridges with a departure time when you have clinically scheduled responsibilities that someone else must fill with < 60-90 days notice will get you remembered and folks have a long memory for things like that. If you are the office secretary then 2 weeks is fine, not if you are an attending on a call schedule.

OP is an intern, not an attending.

Residency programs routinely treat us like fungible objects anyway. We are constantly "signing out" to random people who don't know our patients, filling in holiday weeks on services we were never on before, "cross covering" on people we know nothing about (and diseases we often know little about) because our job is not to be the big thinker who solves people's problems, but rather the cog who pushes the paperwork, clicks the EMR radio buttons, makes the phone calls, "coordinates care," if necessary does the chest compressions, and the like.

There is 0 comparison between an intern planning to leave and pursue non-medical work and an attending planning to leave to take a different attending position. An intern has NO obligation to give 60-90 days notice. From a practical standpoint, it matters even less if they are going to pursue non-medical work. I agree that 30-60 days would probably be ideal, certainly 2 weeks would be too few, but I am actually surprised that you and L2D are pushing this ridiculous analogy between internship and corporate law/attendinghood.
 
First, working in a Lab is different than being a professional. Second, I used to write these contracts daily. Third most high ranking people in the corporate world actually do give long notice. Their employers might show them the door that day (but usually still have to pay them if the contract provided for 30 days etc) but often if you are parting on good terms, you might even be asked train your replacement. As mentioned I personally gave three months notice at my last law job. Wasn't a record. But they appreciated it and i left without burning a bridge. Could I have gotten away with 1 month? Probably. Two weeks? Fog without destroying the relationships and breaching my contract. Fourth, firing is not the same thing. You can be fired for cause without notice. Fifth, it's hard to "lay off" a professional without some sort of final months pay or severance. At will, non professional employees, sure. But if you are working under a contract the rules and expectations are different.

People are routinely asked to train their replacements even when they had no intention of leaving, then are laid off because said replacements are paid half of what the original employee was paid. The cynicism is appalling. "Professional" organizations engage in all sorts of disgusting behaviors that you seem to have no problem with (as I alluded to, when you are laid off you are routinely treated as a criminal, your briefcase is ransacked, your thumb drives are hijacked by some IT guy who wipes them clean, your office materials - even personal belongings - are thrown in the trash, etc.). This is professional behavior? Your only problem is with the lack of professionalism evinced by someone who gives 30 days notice to their employer...

Why is our "professional" (and your tone makes it sound like a moral imperative) obligation to give 90 days notice more important than the employers apparent non-obligation to treat their employees with dignity (like, you know, not having you train your replacement to only then lay you off several months later)?
 
The expectation for a Professional is 30+ days. I'm telling you this as someone who has written and reviewed literally hundreds of employment contracts. That your wife's contract bucks the trend doesn't really mean you ought to be tossing two weeks around as "typical" or "reasonable". It's actually pretty unusual in this kind of setting.

I agree "never" was too extreme. I should have said except in very rare circumstance, where the parties explicitly contract otherwise.

Well, I didn't explicitly state this, but I was implying that her contract isn't unique and, as I mentioned, her employer is huge both in size and geographic footprint. Anyway, this is a stupid thing to argue about.

I also think it's fair to say that what is contractually required and what is professionally expected are not always the same thing. I've never held a professional level job (two completely different industries that weren't medical) in which at least 30 wasn't the culturally acceptable minimum notice but they would have had trouble writing that into a contract

I understand this sentiment. We all want to believe that we're dealing with reasonable people, but I've heard too many stories of things getting ugly. Ultimately, this is a business and people play hardball in business when they have to. Contractually required and professionaly expected become synonymous in these scearnios. If a company or group were downsizing, they wouldn't hesitate to do the bare minimum as outlined in the contract. The individual shouldn't be expected to do more than that. I'm not advocating that we be ruthless for the sake of being ruthless, but we shouldn't be naive either.
 
OP is an intern, not an attending.

Residency programs routinely treat us like fungible objects anyway. We are constantly "signing out" to random people who don't know our patients, filling in holiday weeks on services we were never on before, "cross covering" on people we know nothing about (and diseases we often know little about) because our job is not to be the big thinker who solves people's problems, but rather the cog who pushes the paperwork, clicks the EMR radio buttons, makes the phone calls, "coordinates care," if necessary does the chest compressions, and the like.

There is 0 comparison between an intern planning to leave and pursue non-medical work and an attending planning to leave to take a different attending position. An intern has NO obligation to give 60-90 days notice. From a practical standpoint, it matters even less if they are going to pursue non-medical work. I agree that 30-60 days would probably be ideal, certainly 2 weeks would be too few, but I am actually surprised that you and L2D are pushing this ridiculous analogy between internship and corporate law/attendinghood.

I would encourage you to actually read my post, which made it clear my response was not about residents or the OP. I do however, disagree with your point about interns and residents (and fellows). Barring an emergency, given that they are on a clinical call system and someone must cover for them, 60 days is not unreasonable. I'm sorry you see the training process so harshly, but that is your right as it is mine to see it differently.
 
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Well, I didn't explicitly state this, but I was implying that her contract isn't unique and, as I mentioned, her employer is huge both in size and geographic footprint. Anyway, this is a stupid thing to argue about.



I understand this sentiment. We all want to believe that we're dealing with reasonable people, but I've heard too many stories of things getting ugly. Ultimately, this is a business and people play hardball in business when they have to. Contractually required and professionaly expected become synonymous in these scearnios. If a company or group were downsizing, they wouldn't hesitate to do the bare minimum as outlined in the contract. The individual shouldn't be expected to do more than that. I'm not advocating that we be ruthless for the sake of being ruthless, but we shouldn't be naive either.
I'm not advocating longer than contractually required notice as a moral requirement.....but out of self preservation in case an unburned bridge is needed in the future
 
I'm not advocating longer than contractually required notice as a moral requirement.....but out of self preservation in case an unburned bridge is needed in the future

Gotcha. Yeah, there's no reason to burn a bridge if you don't have to. But, as long as the person is following their contract, I also would question why an employer would feel someone is burning a bridge.

I would also add that I'm definitely thinking about this from a post-training perspective. Residency is a different animal because of the relative difficulty of hiring a replacement and the power that the program holds over the resident, even after he/she moves on.
 
Well, I'm really glad to see that a lot of people had thoughts on this. I think the question I'm left with is this -

Telling them I would be leaving after intern year at this point would give them like 150 days notice (!). If they are decent people and I continue to do good work, should I be concerned that they would for any reason try to terminate me before then and deny me completing intern year and being eligible for a license? I'm not sure if anyone has heard of any situation like this –

Thanks
 
Well, I'm really glad to see that a lot of people had thoughts on this. I think the question I'm left with is this -

Telling them I would be leaving after intern year at this point would give them like 150 days notice (!). If they are decent people and I continue to do good work, should I be concerned that they would for any reason try to terminate me before then and deny me completing intern year and being eligible for a license? I'm not sure if anyone has heard of any situation like this –

Thanks

You know the people better than we do. As long as you think it likely they will let you finish the year and get licensed, you can give them a nice window.
 
You know the people better than we do. As long as you think it likely they will let you finish the year and get licensed, you can give them a nice window.
I appreciate your input greatly. I think that's what it comes down to. I don't know in any situation that would be better for them to even consider trying to terminate me earlier then let me finish my contract and get a license. What I've read here tells me that telling them early is probably the best decision considering the long-term relationship that I would want to have the chance to maintain.
 
IMO They have no motive to fire you. You are, if nothing else, a warm body in the call pool.

Usually when a resident decides to leave, the first thing the program director wants to know is whether they are quitting immediately or whether you are willing to stick out the rest of the year.

Losing a resident mid-year causes a lot of shuffling of call schedules around and more work for everyone else.

So unless it is a malignant program, or you are particularly incompetent - then the sooner you give the notice the better. It allows the program to start looking for your replacement sooner and line up a decent candidate rather than whatever scraps are left at the last moment.
I hear you – my alternative was to wait till the summer when I have everything squared away and then give them like a month. But that would really suck for my colleagues who would have to adjust to that and I don't want to put the rest of my intern class (who are great people and I really enjoy working with) through that.
 
I appreciate your input greatly. I think that's what it comes down to. I don't know in any situation that would be better for them to even consider trying to terminate me earlier then let me finish my contract and get a license. What I've read here tells me that telling them early is probably the best decision considering the long-term relationship that I would want to have the chance to maintain.

no, the best decision is to finish your residency...the second best is to give them ample notice and maintain a good relationship
 
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Please, if you have input based on the question I asked I would appreciate it. That's why I posted the question.

Have you considered what type of nonclinical job you would be trying for? As people have mentioned on this forum time and time again, many of these jobs still want board-certified physicians. Not all of them do, but enough do. And if you ever decided you wanted to get back into medicine, you could do it fairly easily if you are certified. Finding a training program several years out from your intern year will be much harder. If you are in a three year training program, two more years is not the end of the world and then you can always go do non-clinical jobs if you'd like. Just something to consider.
 
I'm not advocating longer than contractually required notice as a moral requirement.....but out of self preservation in case an unburned bridge is needed in the future
Agree with this. Medicine is a small community. It's one thing if you have some emergency come up and have to make a sudden departure from your job. That's clearly not the case here. (For the record, my contract asks for 90 days notice, but people can and do give anywhere from 1-3 months. However, I'm in an academic position, and three months is probably on the long side for people to give notice in PP.)

OP, if you're 100% sure you want to leave, yeah, go ahead and give notice. Can they hurt you if they want to retaliate? Yes. But they can do that whether you give notice now or not. And I think most PDs would appreciate having as much lead time to replace you as possible.
 
I appreciate your input greatly. I think that's what it comes down to. I don't know in any situation that would be better for them to even consider trying to terminate me earlier then let me finish my contract and get a license. What I've read here tells me that telling them early is probably the best decision considering the long-term relationship that I would want to have the chance to maintain.

Sounds like you haven't thought this through very well. Even if you give adequate notice, there will be 'no long-term relationship to maintain' here - once you're out, you're out and the program is extremely unlikely to ever let you back in (or even give you the time of day, for that matter). This isn't like Michael Jordan going off to play baseball - you absolutely will not be able to leave, dabble around in something for a year and show up afterwards with your tail between your legs and say 'aw shucks, can y'all let me back in?' That's *not* how this works, and it doesn't really sound like you grasp that.

You really need to sit down and think through your priorities. It seems like you don't want to talk about the back story here, which is ok - but you need to talk to friends, family, an advisor, a therapist, somebody who you can bounce ideas off of and see if this is reasonable.

Residency is a solid metal door that locks shut on the way out. Don't forget it.
 
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first of all, it's very likely in your best long-term interest to finish residency. That's your choice of course.

Second, whatever you do, don't tell your PD you're leaving 2 weeks before July 1!! that will likely end whatever good will you have at your program. Don't forget you'll need references to get a medical license and every job you'll ever apply for will need references.

Typically residents sign additional contracts each year. In March of each year we sign contract extensions for the next year. So if your program does this you definitely will need to tell them before you sign your contract.

You should tell your PD now if you plan on leaving.

And I agree with L2D, 2 wks notice is unacceptable in most areas of medicine. That would leave my partners working extra shifts for ~3 months until an additional hire was made.
 
Sounds like you haven't thought this through very well. Even if you give adequate notice, there will be 'no long-term relationship to maintain' here - once you're out, you're out and the program is extremely unlikely to ever let you back in (or even give you the time of day, for that matter). This isn't like Michael Jordan going off to play baseball - you absolutely will not be able to leave, dabble around in something for a year and show up afterwards with your tail between your legs and say 'aw shucks, can y'all let me back in?' That's *not* how this works, and it doesn't really sound like you grasp that.

You really need to sit down and think through your priorities. It seems like you don't want to talk about the back story here, which is ok - but you need to talk to friends, family, an advisor, a therapist, somebody who you can bounce ideas off of and see if this is reasonable.

Residency is a solid metal door that locks shut on the way out. Don't forget it.

I'm not sure if you misunderstood me – I don't intend on returning to the residency program or to day today clinical medicine in general. Several posts above I had asked somebody to focus on the question I had asked rather than get into the subject of my other opportunities. Law2doc had made a good point that other questions can come up in a thread that deserves discussion. I agree but I'm not going to address that here except to say: I have talked about this confidentially with many hopefully impartial and qualified people and I believe it's the right decision for me. Is there some unknown in this? Is there some risk? I think so. I'm happy to face it. The people that know me know I've faced much much worse and succeeded (and I'm not talking about just getting in and making through med school). That's for sure!

I'm very satisfied with the answers to my original question and anyone else who would like to give input can do so for the benefit of others. Thanks so much -
 
If you really aren't headed to another program anytime soon, I'd tell no one until the last. That will give you the maximum amount of time to change your mind (particularly if you only have 2 years left).
 
If you really aren't headed to another program anytime soon, I'd tell no one until the last. That will give you the maximum amount of time to change your mind (particularly if you only have 2 years left).

He will likely have to tell them when he's up for re-signing for next year's contract. He'll still need the program to fill out his paperwork in a timely manner for a medical license...
 
Have you signed your contract for next year? My residency had the residents sign their contract early spring. If you do not plan to continue, do not sign the contract for 2nd year. People decide clinical medicine is not for them. Talk with your PD. They are likely making the schedule now and it will save them a lot of time and frustration having to re do it. Unlikely they will fire you immediately because then they would have to get your calls and rotations covered.
 
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