Ivy League Undergrads where were you Accepted?

[bingy95]

Okay so my younger brother is trying to decide if he should attend an Ivy League undergrad or a smaller LAC like Kenyon or Oberlin.

I told him that gpa and MCAT determine med school school admission but I'm curious, did graduating from an Ivy League help people get into the upper tier med schools?

Which schools did the Ivy Leaguers out there get into this cycle?

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[md-2020]

Okay so my younger brother is trying to decide if he should attend an Ivy League undergrad or a smaller LAC like Kenyon or Oberlin.

What are the financial packages? Which Ivy (this matters)?

I told him that gpa and MCAT determine med school school admission but I'm curious, did graduating from an Ivy League help people get into the upper tier med schools?

You're correct, GPA and MCAT (and ECs, writing skills, LORs, etc) are most important. Pedigree is nice, but no more than icing on the cake. So it probably matters a tad, but not too much.

Which schools did the Ivy Leaguers out there get into this cycle?

This will not be at all representative or useful, really.

 

[lalarubies]

Is your brother 100% on becoming a doctor? If so, I think he should go to the smaller cheaper LAC, IF that ivy league school is known to be harder to get a good gpa. Going to an ivy league doesn't make a difference. With that being said, your brother could just do an easier major at the ivy league school and still get a high gpa if money isn't an issue. Also your brother would likely have more research and general opportunities at the ivy league.

If he isn't 100% on being a doctor, he should go to the ivy. Just opens up way more doors.

I'm a HYPS grad, LizzyM 77 (low gpa, high mcat). Didn't get into any upper midtier schools & likely going to my state school.

 

[throk]

According to AAMC survey, "Selectivity of undergraduate institution" is up there with GPA and MCAT among highest importance academic factors, though only for private medical schools. Then again, most top med schools are private.

I'm a HYPS grad, LizzyM 77. Didn't get into any upper midtier schools & likely going to my state school.

Really, no love from top 20s with a 77? Interviews at least?

 

[lalarubies]

According to AAMC survey, "Selectivity of undergraduate institution" is up there with GPA and MCAT among highest importance academic factors, though only for private medical schools. Then again, most top med schools are private.

Really, no love from top 20s with a 77? Interviews at least?

Interesting stuff here.
Got 3 top 20 interviews. 1 rej, 1 waitlist, 1 still waiting on.

 

[Mansamusa]

Brown would be the best bet.

I would always say go ivy (unless you go over $35K in debt for the 4yrs. Then go to the school with lots of merit aid). There are benefits in applying to med school from an ivy and there are huuuge benefits in fields outside of medicine, which will help if he decides not to be a premed (which the vast majority do)

 

[lalarubies]

Will parents be paying for his undergrad? If money isn't an issue, tell him to go ivy. There are so many people that go into college thinking 100% they want to be a doc, and they switch after the 1st year. He should do some research into those 3 schools and find out what their gpa reputation (deflate or inflate) is, specifically for the majors he's interested in. Best bet is take the easy major for high gpa. I did a more challenging major that resulted me in getting a gpa lower than I could've in an easier major. I don't regret my decision, but I do think me taking an easier major and having a higher gpa would have helped me in the med application cycle

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

The top feeds the top...schools name will carry weight at other top schools.

In my personal opinion, if the goal is to become a physician, it is better to go to the school with the best chance to have a great GPA.

As people have said above, an Ivy name is invaluable if he chooses a different career

 

[ridethecliche]

I doubt that going to Cornell or Dartmouth over a place like Swathmore, Williams, or Amherst will have any bearing on one's career or life trajectory.

 

[throk]

He is waiting to hear from Dartmouth, Brown and Cornell. No aid because of high parental tax bracket. Already has multiple merit aid packages from in state private schools and some east coast LACs.

He is 100% intent on becoming a doctor but is worried his gpa will be sub par at Ivy League school so he is really conflicted.

Same old " is it better to be a big fish in a small pond...." question I guess.

Do you mean he has yet to actually get accepted to an Ivy?

If he does get into Brown, that's his best bet. It (along with Harvard) is notorious for inflation, plus Brown has incredibly happy and relaxed vibe to it (lots of pass/fail classes, failed classes are not recorded on the transcript, no general graduation requirements so everyone in every class elected to be there). Cornell on the other hand has a reputation for being quite tough and deflated in the sciences/premed track. Dartmouth does not have much of a reputation in either direction, though living in a frigid town of population 10,000 is something to think carefully about!

 

[SurgeonOfLife]

People here are mistakenly under the impression name does not carry that much weight. Just get a good gpa/mcat they say. That's true, but unfortunately your institution matters a lot too. Simple as that. It is not 'just icing on the cake.' You'll realize most that say this come from Ivies or other institutions like Emory, Duke, MIT, etc., so they don't think it has that much weight, but ohhhhhhhhh, it does -- If you want to get into another high-tier private med school.

Still have to get a good gpa & mcat, I'm not de-stressing that part. So I'd pick Brown over Cornell.

 

[terra330]

People here are mistakenly under the impression name does not carry that much weight. Just get a good gpa/mcat they say. That's true, but unfortunately your institution matters a lot too. Simple as that. It is not 'just icing on the cake.' You'll realize most that say this come from Ivies or other institutions like Emory, Duke, MIT, etc., so they don't think it has that much weight, but ohhhhhhhhh, it does -- If you want to get into another high-tier private med school.

Still have to get a good gpa & mcat, I'm not de-stressing that part.

Actually I think most who say this are those who didn't go to Ivies. It's a defense mechanism, I'm sure we've all said similar things to reassure ourselves - I know I have. Just like how it's often emphasized that you can get into a great residency from and medical school. Technically true, but your odds are much higher from top schools.

With that said, it is also important to remember that an Ivy League education is in no way a guarantee. Every year there are Ivy League students who only get into low tier medical schools or fail to get in at all.

 

[SurgeonOfLife]

Actually I think most who say this are those who didn't go to Ivies. It's a defense mechanism

Yes, there's bias on both sides, I won't deny that, except it's explicitly written supporting the fact that UG institution is weighted as 'highest importance' up there with gpa/mcat:

According to AAMC survey, "Selectivity of undergraduate institution" is up there with GPA and MCAT among highest importance academic factors, though only for private medical schools. Then again, most top med schools are private.

You can't deny that. It's not that 'it doesn't hurt coming from a top institution', it actually helps. A lot. And of course there's going to be people that still fail.

 

[SurgeonOfLife]

I'll add finally, I really wish it wasn't true.

I'm still a proponent of 'go with your heart. Go where you'll be happy and do your best, regardless of name. Go where it'll help set you up in the best position possible'

But in terms of what a name can and cannot do for you, it does help. It does help put you in the best position possible.

So unless there's glaring evidence you won't do well at a particular institution (you absolutely can't deal with the cold, known for grade deflation, too far away from home if that's important to you, etc.), pick the school with higher selectivity.

One last piece of advice: make a pro/con list. Pick the school with the optimal balance of higher pros and fewer cons (and one pro at one particular school will be ' higher selectivity/name' because it does matter for med school apps. One con will be $$$. Pros/cons can also be weighted). If an Ivy has significantly more cons and fewer pros than your state school, well the choice is now obvious.

 

[MaxPlancker]

It is definitely beneficial to go to a name brand school. If not for the bonus that the name itself brings (whatever amount that may be), you have exposure to more opportunities and resources (better research, being able to work with field leaders, mentorship, etc) that are difficult to match at other places. Most state schools (excluding the likes of UCLA, etc) will send a few kids to the tip top med schools every now or then, but it is certainly not as easy to break into the pedigree system (IMO) particularly with lesser resources and connections. Harvard in particular seems to pad their students with honors and stuff, not only in terms of how many they offer but also the way they name stuff. I believe if you make the dean's list at other schools, that equivalent list is called the John Harvard Scholar or something--which if you aren't familiar with, sounds like an actual award lol.

However, merely going to a brand name school doesn't mean much if you don't utilize everything offered there. I have friends that went to the Ivies, including Harvard, that applied this cycle. They landed nice interviews and acceptances but I far outdid them by going to a full ride state school and working my butt off more than they did. The difference almost seemed like a good bit of students who went to Ivies relaxed thinking that by virtue of going to an elite school, they were set. I would say that it was beneficial that my state university did have a good range of resources, probably above average for a state university although it is not a well known one like UCLA. The quality of the state uni is definitely something to consider. Tell us the exact schools and we can give you a better assessment.

At my interviews, it was common for me to be 1 of the only, if not only, non-name brand school student(s). This can be a plus or minus. Don't let yourself feel intimidated. However, I think some schools do take school and geography as a small hint of diversity. My friend that went to Harvard really relaxed and barely did the minimum pre-med requirements and still landed top notch interviews. But he didn't get the acceptances. I'm not sure if some schools extend interviews to Ivy applicants a bit more freely out of courtesy, but it seems that acceptances are on a level field.

tl;dr If you have two people who are equally capable and work equally hard, the one from the ivy will probably be further ahead. However, if you go to a decent state uni and work your butt off, you will likely come out ahead of the ivy applicant who doesn't work at the same level. If two applicants have the same stats and ECs, the one from the Ivy would be ahead as some schools assume that state unis are easier academically and thus you should have more time for ECs. Also, if you want to go to a particular med school, going to their undergrad gives you a slight bonus (large bonus in the case of Brown).

 

[SurgeonOfLife]

^Agree Interesting perspective, especially with your friend and the Harvard award naming haha. Even if he did the minimum and got top-notch interviews, I'm still envious he got those IIs. Some at my institution would killlllll for that chance because that still means a non-zero chance at acceptance. I was honored just to step on Harvard's campus.

I would say that it was beneficial that my state university did have a good range of resources, probably above average for a state university although it is not a well known one like UCLA. The quality of the state uni is definitely something to consider.

Coming from the flip side where my state uni didn't have a good range of resources, I'd also highly recommend considering the quality of pre-med advising, mentorship, and other opportunities at your expected matriculating institution.

My state uni is overrun by pre-meds with 802 applications this year alone (these are just the ones that make it to the application round and is the third largest supplier of applicants, behind UCLA-961 and Berkeley-819). Extrapolate to the the number of flunked-out pre-meds across 4-5 class years (many can take 5 years to graduate here), we have a few thousand pre-meds. Our % pre-med population might not be as high as places like Hopkins where 25% can be pre-med (as we have ~30k undergrads), but the sheer volume of pre-meds in my small college town overloads the hospital system and every other system relating to being a good med school applicant. It is very hard to get good volunteering, shadowing, research, advising, and mentorship opportunities. It's craaaazzzyy. Idk how UCLA, Berkely, or UMich are with handling the sheer volume of pre-meds, but being pre-med at my uni is quite difficult for many. Many get lost and/or discouraged. I did.

For instance, during my freshman year for one of the volunteering opportunities at my uni's hospital, you had to call in on a specific day of the semester to schedule an appointment/interview. There are a limited number of spots available and you better believe students were already calling before the lines opened up at 8am. Had an early class or an exam and couldn't call till 9am? Sorry, everything is full. Including pre-dent, pre-pharm, pre-vet or anything pre-health related. Better luck next semester.
The sign up recently moved online, and I can totally believe people are refreshing the page to sign up before it opens.

You might get eaten alive by the highly concentrated number of other smart student at the Ivys, but you can definitely get eaten alive in other ways at state-schools without the resources.

 

[jagster92]

Just my anecdotal opinion, but when I interviewed at top 10 schools (x4 interviews) nearly everyone there was from an ivy league or really high-powered undergrad. I know everyone says it's more about MCAT/GPA/activities, but I thought I had the stats and the non-academic things to compete there and ended up getting into 1/4. I ended up getting into pretty much every other school i interviewed at. I'm not from a top-level undergrad. So ya I'm sure this could be partially due to the fact that I might have hit my ceiling in terms of competition in the top 10, but I was clearly an outlier based on my undergrad school in the top 10 interviews. Heck, i was an outlier based on my high school and not going to a private prep school haha.

 

[Smoove]

Same opinion as Jagster. When I went to my top 10 interviews (x3), only about 10% of the interviewees on my day weren't from really high powered institutions.

While I was unhappy that my school had grade deflation, I was happy in the long run because I pretty much had unlimited resources in terms of research opportunities, shadowing, volunteering, organizations, etc.

Pick the best school, if they extended an acceptance in the first place then you can most likely succeed with the proper work ethic IMO

 

[jsquared91]

I doubt that going to Cornell or Dartmouth over a place like Swathmore, Williams, or Amherst will have any bearing on one's career or life trajectory.

Gotta agree with this. I think it's about fit, I went the LAC route because I didn't think I'd do well in a hypercompetitive environment. Most of the top LAC have research opportunities, albeit fewer and often less prestigious than an Ivy. But I never competed with a grad student for lab space, etc.

I do think where you go to UG matters for med school admissions, but when it comes to Ivy vs top 20 LAC, the gap is so small I think the fit matters more. If you're happier where you are, you'll probably have better grades, etc. There's a huge difference between a student that fits in at Oberlin vs Cornell, but we have members of our med school class from both.

 

[Bumblenest]

Harvard in particular seems to pad their students with honors and stuff, not only in terms of how many they offer but also the way they name stuff. I believe if you make the dean's list at other schools, that equivalent list is called the John Harvard Scholar or something--which if you aren't familiar with, sounds like an actual award lol.

Just to note, the most of the academic awards are extremely difficult to achieve at Harvard. The Deans list at most schools has a cutoff of around 3.5 or 3.6. The John Harvard Scholar is only awarded to the top 5% of gpa in first few years, which ends up being somewhere around 3.96+ish, AND you're competing with people from all majors.

 

[Nietzschelover]

I doubt there is any significant difference in terms of a boost between Ivies/top 10-15 universities and top 10 LACs. I think the question is to what degree that category is an advantage over the next tier, which could be loosely defined and universities in the 20-35 range (Emory, Tufts, Wake, BC, Rochester, NYU, etc) and LACs in the 15-30ish range (Hamilton, Colby, Oberlin, Kenyon, Holy Cross, etc). The latter may not provide any boost for like the Wedgedawg formulation but surely those are all names that adcoms will recognize as very good or "good enough" schools if the numbers of the applicant and accompanying story are up to snuff. Who wants a class with only Ivy or similar schools anyway? I would think having some kids from still somewhat prestigious and interesting LACs would be desirable. In other words, the 3.8+/518+ kid from Oberlin should fare well. And of course as some of the posts above suggest I would think most top schools would want some percentage of their class filled by applicants from large state universities who have excelled and whose stats demonstrate they are competitive with the applicants from the usual most prestigious suspects.

 

[MaxPlancker]

Just to note, the most of the academic awards are extremely difficult to achieve at Harvard. The Deans list at most schools has a cutoff of around 3.5 or 3.6. The John Harvard Scholar is only awarded to the top 5% of gpa in first few years, which ends up being somewhere around 3.96+ish, AND you're competing with people from all majors.

Ah, did not know that. Good point. However, I'm aware that most students that apply for their summer research funding (called fellowships) receive them.

 

[throk]

It is definitely beneficial to go to a name brand school. If not for the bonus that the name itself brings (whatever amount that may be), you have exposure to more opportunities and resources (better research, being able to work with field leaders, mentorship, etc) that are difficult to match at other places. Most state schools (excluding the likes of UCLA, etc) will send a few kids to the tip top med schools every now or then, but it is certainly not as easy to break into the pedigree system (IMO) particularly with lesser resources and connections. Harvard in particular seems to pad their students with honors and stuff, not only in terms of how many they offer but also the way they name stuff. I believe if you make the dean's list at other schools, that equivalent list is called the John Harvard Scholar or something--which if you aren't familiar with, sounds like an actual award lol.

However, merely going to a brand name school doesn't mean much if you don't utilize everything offered there. I have friends that went to the Ivies, including Harvard, that applied this cycle. They landed nice interviews and acceptances but I far outdid them by going to a full ride state school and working my butt off more than they did. The difference almost seemed like a good bit of students who went to Ivies relaxed thinking that by virtue of going to an elite school, they were set. I would say that it was beneficial that my state university did have a good range of resources, probably above average for a state university although it is not a well known one like UCLA. The quality of the state uni is definitely something to consider. Tell us the exact schools and we can give you a better assessment.

At my interviews, it was common for me to be 1 of the only, if not only, non-name brand school student(s). This can be a plus or minus. Don't let yourself feel intimidated. However, I think some schools do take school and geography as a small hint of diversity. My friend that went to Harvard really relaxed and barely did the minimum pre-med requirements and still landed top notch interviews. But he didn't get the acceptances. I'm not sure if some schools extend interviews to Ivy applicants a bit more freely out of courtesy, but it seems that acceptances are on a level field.

tl;dr If you have two people who are equally capable and work equally hard, the one from the ivy will probably be further ahead. However, if you go to a decent state uni and work your butt off, you will likely come out ahead of the ivy applicant who doesn't work at the same level. If two applicants have the same stats and ECs, the one from the Ivy would be ahead as some schools assume that state unis are easier academically and thus you should have more time for ECs. Also, if you want to go to a particular med school, going to their undergrad gives you a slight bonus (large bonus in the case of Brown).

Great post! I would add to this that it can be hard to find opportunities at LACs that are remote and have few premeds. My sibling is at a decent but rural LAC that is mostly arts and business, and without a car they say it is essentially impossible to get to a hospital or clinic to volunteer/shadow. The advising is also terrible (they said to take prereq Physics while abroad...) and the premed classes are pretty barren, only a couple dozen in Ochem.

So name can matter, but be careful to make sure fit comes first.

 

[Lucca]

aaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnd...... @efle

 

[efle]

Which Ivy (this matters)?

Do you think it really does though? I know in the insane world of college confidential there are such things as upper vs mid Ivy, but do you think anybody in admissions has ever said oh, he only went to Dartmouth, I'd have given him an interview if only he'd come from Yale?

 

[Flashfan]

It isn't as if adcoms don't know Kenyon or Oberlin. Both are top LACs and have a lot of graduates that end up going to grad schools. Did he specifically look at the resources for premeds?

 

[Swish16]

Go Ivy. I chose a pre-med powerhouse school over an Ivy for undergrad and I have some regrets just because Ivies have the prestige and grade inflation.

 

[jsquared91]

Great post! I would add to this that it can be hard to find opportunities at LACs that are remote and have few premeds. My sibling is at a decent but rural LAC that is mostly arts and business, and without a car they say it is essentially impossible to get to a hospital or clinic to volunteer/shadow. The advising is also terrible (they said to take prereq Physics while abroad...) and the premed classes are pretty barren, only a couple dozen in Ochem.

So name can matter, but be careful to make sure fit comes first.

This is a pretty good point. There's way more variation in LACs. My small UG had multiple Ochem sections that were all at capacity at a school with +/-2000 total students. And a premed advisor that set up shadowing and volunteering.

I'd guess the premed opportunities are much more consistent at Ivies.

 

[Nietzschelover]

It isn't as if adcoms don't know Kenyon or Oberlin. Both are top LACs and have a lot of graduates that end up going to grad schools. Did he specifically look at the resources for premeds?

I am very familiar with both of those schools. One caveat. Yes, I am sure virtually all adcoms know these are very fine schools, BUT, they don't seem to provide a boost the way Ivies or Amherst/Williams/Swat do, AND (this is the caveat part) it might be a mistake to think going to one of these "lesser" prestigious schools will translate into a higher GPA. In other words, the top 3-4 premed students at Kenyon and Oberlin are likely brilliant and on huge merit scholarships and they are the ones likely getting the As in Ochem as well as Philosophy/History/English Lit. The next 12-20 premeds at those schools may have to fight like crazy to get a 3.7+ and certainly a 3.85+.

 

[Lucca]

Do you think it really does though? I know in the insane world of college confidential there are such things as upper vs mid Ivy, but do you think anybody in admissions has ever said oh, he only went to Dartmouth, I'd have given him an interview if only he'd come from Yale?

I don't buy into the mid-ivy crap or anything like that but if I was going to put my money somewhere I would say that applicants from HYPSM and Duke do better than other applicants with similar stats and applications across the board when applying to private medical schools.

 

[Lucca]

At least for MD/PhD I think the statement "undergrad prestige matters" definitely holds water for the more competitive programs and ESPECIALLY at private MSTPs associated with equally prestigious undergrads. HMS is a huge outlier too. Not only do 74% of their students come from the top 10 undergrads, but most of those 74% come from just 5 schools -- HYPSM -- and 25% of all of their students from Harvard alone.

Bolding is mine for emphasis.

Here's data on where the students come from.
Legend: Total number of reported MD-PhD matriculants from 2000 to 2014
Percentage of matriculants from USNWR Rankings of Top 10 Universities (U 10), 11-20 (U 20), and 21-30 (U 30); Top 10 LA Colleges (C 10), 11-20 (C 20), and 21-30 (C30); and all Other schools.

Program................................ Total...............U 10..........U 20 ......... U 30 ............C 10............C 20................ C 30 .....................Other
AECOM ...................................66 ................11% ............9% .............12% .............2% .............2% ...................2%....................... 64%
Arizona .....................................5 .................0% ............0%.............. 0% .............0% .............0% ...................0% .....................100%
Arkansas ..................................12 ................0%............ 0%............... 0% ............0%............. 0% ...................0%..................... 100%
Baylor ......................................49 ...............22% ..........16%.............. 6% .............6% .............0% ...................0% .......................49%
Boston U .................................33 ................15% ...........9% ...............9% ............9% ..............3%................... 0% ......................55%
Buffalo ....................................18 ................11% ............0% ..............17% ............0% .............0% ...................0% ......................72%
Case Western ..........................65 ................17% ..........20% .............11%............ 0% ..............0% ...................2% .......................51%
Chicago ..................................40 ................45% ..........13% .............18% .............3%............. 0% ..................0% .......................23%
Cincinnati.............................. 36 ................28% ..........3% ................3% .............0% .............6% ...................0%....................... 61%
Colorado................................ 46 ..................9% ..........11% ...............7% ..............2%............ 0% ....................2% .......................70%
Columbia ...............................78 .................55% ........15% ...............4% ...............5% .............3% ...................1% ........................17%
Connecticut ...........................20 .................15% ........10% ...............5% ..............0% ............10% ...................0% ......................60%
Cornell ...................................75................. 36% .........17% ..............5% ..............7% ..............0% ...................1% .......................33%
Dartmouth ............................15 ..................13%......... 13% ..............13% .............7% ............13% ...................0% ......................40%
Drexel ..................................20 ..................10% ...........5% ...............5% ..............5% ............0% ....................0% ......................75%
Duke ....................................48 ..................25% ..........13% ..............15% ............0% .............2% ....................0% .....................46%
Emory ...................................54 .................35% ...........4% ..............24% ............2% .............2% .....................0% ....................33%
Florida ..................................25 ...................4% ............8% ..............8% .............0%............ 0% ....................0% ......................80%
Georgetown ............................6.................. 17% ............0% ..............17% ............0% ............0% ....................0% ......................67%
GRU-MCG ............................20 .................15% .............0% ..............5% .............0% ............5% ....................0% ............ .....75%
Harvard.................................68...................74% ............3% ...............3% .............7% ............0% ....................0% .......................13%
Hofstra ..................................16.................. 19% ............6%............... 6% .............0% ............0% ...................0%...................... 69%
Howard ...................................3................... 0% ...........0%................0% ..............0%........... 0% ....................0% ....................100%
Illinois ..................................70 ..................10% ...........10%............ 11% ...............3%............ 1% ....................0% .......................64%
Illinois-Chicago .....................31 .................19% ............13% ..............3% ..............6%........... 0% ....................0% .......................58%
Indiana................................. 33 ..................6% ............18% ..............6% .............0% ............0% ....................0% ........................70%
Iowa ......................................47 ..................2% .............6% .............19% ............0% .............4% ....................0% ........................68%
Jefferson ...............................24 ................25% ............4% ................4% ...........0% .............4% ....................0% ........................63%
Johns Hopkins..................... 55 .................38% ...........9% ................2% ............7% .............2% ...................5% ........................36%
Kansas ...................................22 ...................9% ...........5% ...............0% ............0% ............0% ...................0% .........................86%
Kentucky ...............................16 ...................6% ...........6% ...............19% ...........6% ............0% ....................0% ........................63%
Loma Linda ...........................13 ...................0% ............8% ..............0% .............0% ...........0% ....................0%....................... 92%
Louisville ...............................12 ...................8% ...........8% ..............17% .............0% ...........8% ....................0% .......................58%
Loyola-Chicago .....................10 ...................10% ........40% ..............0% ..............0% ...........0% ....................0% .......................50%
LSU-New Orleans ................27 ....................11% ...........0% .............4% ...............0% ...........0% ....................0% .......................85%
Marshall................................ 4 ....................25%.......... 0% .............0%............... 0%........... 0%.................... 0% ........................75%
Maryland .............................33 ...................21% ...........9% ..............15%............. 6% ............0% ....................0% .......................48%
Massachusetts .....................51 ....................14% ..........6%.............. 10% .............4%............ 4%.................... 2% .........................61%
Mayo ...................................31 .....................0% ...........3% ...............3% .............3% ............0%.................... 0%........................ 90%
MCW ..................................25 .....................4% ..........12% ..............12%............ 0% ............0%.................... 0%......................... 72%
Miami .................................26 ....................15% ..........12%............... 8%............ 4% ............0% ....................0%........................ 62%
Michigan .............................61 ....................26% ..........16% .............20% ...........7% .............3% ...................0% .........................28%
Michigan State ...................12 .....................0% .............0% .............25%...........0% .............0%....................0%.......................... 75%
Minnesota .........................34 .....................9% ..............9% .............6% ............9% ..............3% ...................0%......................... 65%
Mississippi ...........................7..................... 0% .............0%............. 0%............ 0%.............. 0% ...................0%....................... 100%
Missouri.............................. 7 ....................14% .............0% .............0% ............0% ..............0%.................... 0% ........................86%
Mt. Sinai ..........................54 ....................30% .............13% ............4%............ 6% ...............4% ....................0%........................ 44%
MUSC ...............................32..................... 0%.............. 3% ............9% ..............3% .............0% .....................3% ........................81%
Nebraska ..........................21.......................0%............. 0%............ 10% ............0% ...............0%................... 0%........................ 90%
Nevada............................... 1 ......................0% .............0% ..........100% ............0% ...............0% ...................0% ..........................0%
New Mexico ......................6 .....................0%.............. 0% .............17% ............0% .................0%................. 0% ........................83%
Northwestern ..................67 ....................31%............ 16% .............10% ............3% .................0% .................0% ........................39%
NYU ................................51 .....................33% ............10% .............14% ............2% ................2% ..................0% ........................39%
Ohio State ......................28 .....................18% ............14%............. 18% ............4% ...............0% ...................4% ........................43%
Oklahoma ........................5...................... 0% .............0% ...............0% .............0%............... 0% ...................0% ......................100%
Oregon Health ..............20 ......................0% .............15% ...............0% .............0% ..............5% ...................5% .........................75%
Penn ............................109 .....................53% .............11% ..............8% ..............5%...............2% ...................2% .........................19%
Penn State.................... 39 ......................21% .............10%.............. 5% .............0% ...............3%................... 0% .........................62%
Pitt ...............................60 .......................18%............ 15% ..............8%............. 5% ...............2% ...................0% .........................52%
Rochester.................... 40....................... 10%............. 18% ..............5% .............0% ..............3% ....................0% .........................65%
Rutgers-RWJ ................46...................... 15% ..............0%............... 9% .............2%.............. 2% ....................2%.......................... 70%
South Dakota ...............10........................ 20%............ 20% ............0% .............0% ..............0% ....................0% ..........................60%
South Florida .................2 .........................0% ..............0% ..............0%............. 0% ............0% .....................0%........................ 100%
St. Louis U.................... 13 .........................0%.............. 0% ..............8% ............0% ..............0% ....................0%.......................... 92%
Stanford .......................52........................ 44% .............10% ............10% ...........4% ...............0% ....................0% .........................33%
Stony Brook ................32 .........................38%............... 13% ...........3%........... 3% ...............3% .....................0% .........................41%
SUNY Downstate ..........8..........................13% ................0% ............25% ............0%........... 0% ......................13% ......................50%
SUNY Upstate ................7 .........................0%................. 57% ............0% ............0% ..............0% ....................0% .........................43%
Temple ..........................17........................ 12% .................0% .............6% ............0% ..............0%..................... 0% ........................82%
Texas ...............................7....................... 29%................ 14% ............0%.............14%............. 0% .....................0%......................... 43%
Texas A&M................... 18 ........................0% ..................17%..............6% ...........6% ...............0% ....................0% ........................72%
Texas Houston .............23 ........................13% .................22% ...........13% ...........0% ...............0% ....................0%........................ 52%
Texas Tech................... 10 ........................0%.................. 20% ...........10% ............0% ...............0%................... 0% ........................70%
Texas-San Antonio ......22 .........................5% ..................18%............ 5% ..............0% .............0% ....................0% ........................73%
Texas-Southwestern ......47 ......................19%................... 9% .............9% ..............4% .............0% ....................0%....................... 60%
TMB-Galveston .............19 ......................11% ...................5% .............5%.............. 0% ..............0% ....................0% .......................79%
Toledo........................... 10....................... 0%.................. 10% ...........10% .............0% ..............0%.................... 0%....................... 80%
Tufts ............................23....................... 22% .................22%............. 4% .............4% ..............4%..................... 0% .......................43%
Tulane ..........................3 .........................0%.................. 0% ..............0% ..............0% .............0%..................... 0%.................... 100%
U. Washington ...........51 ........................18% ................22%............ 12% ..............6% ..............0% ....................0%....................... 43%
UAB ............................37 ........................5% .................14% ..............0% ..............0%............. 3% ....................0% .......................78%
UC-Davis........ .............5..........................20% ................20%.............20%.............20%.............0%....................0%.......................20%
UC-Irvine..............28...............................25%.................11%................4%..............4%...............0%.....................0%......................57%
UC-Los Angeles.61 38% 15% 21% 3% 2% 0% 21%
UC-San Diego 42 38% 10% 14% 5% 0% 0% 33%
UC-San Francisco 52 48% 17% 8% 4% 4% 0% 19%
UNC 47 30% 6% 23% 0% 2% 0% 38%
Uniformed Services 9 0% 0% 0% 0% 11% 0% 89%
USC 17 29% 6% 24% 6% 0% 0% 35%
Utah 17 18% 12% 6% 6% 0% 0% 59%
Vanderbilt 58 14% 26% 14% 5% 5% 0% 36%
VCU 43 9% 9% 12% 2% 0% 0% 67%
Virginia 32 25% 13% 19% 3% 0% 3% 38%
Wake Forest 12 33% 8% 25% 0% 8% 0% 25%
Washington U 123 20% 28% 9% 0% 2% 2% 39%
Wayne State 25 4% 4% 32% 0% 0% 0% 60%
Wisconsin 44 14% 14% 5% 2% 9% 0% 57%
Wright State 1 0% 0% 100% 0% 0% 0% 0%
Yale 68 40% 16% 9% 3% 0% 1% 31%
Total 3143

this is the most depressing chart on SDN because, frankly, even though these are small programs the lack of institutional diversity at the programs which are supposed to be exemplary, not exceptions, really shows you how elitist our academic system is.

 

[ridethecliche]

I believe that there's a body of research that suggests that LAC's have much better mentorship that helps when applying to graduate programs in the sciences/medicine/etc.

 

[throk]

Go Ivy. I chose a pre-med powerhouse school over an Ivy for undergrad and I have some regrets just because Ivies have the prestige and grade inflation.

I'm confused how pre-med powerhouse and Ivy are different categories! You mean you went somewhere like Hopkins or UCLA and had to deal with deflation?

I don't buy into the mid-ivy crap or anything like that but if I was going to put my money somewhere I would say that applicants from HYPSM and Duke do better than other applicants with similar stats and applications across the board when applying to private medical schools.

I'd be surprised if Duke really beat out the rest of the Ivy League

At least for MD/PhD I think the statement "undergrad prestige matters" definitely holds water for the more competitive programs and ESPECIALLY at private MSTPs associated with equally prestigious undergrads. HMS is a huge outlier too. Not only do 74% of their students come from the top 10 undergrads, but most of those 74% come from just 5 schools -- HYPSM -- and 25% of all of their students from Harvard alone.

Bolding is mine for emphasis.

Impossible to separate the self-selection from prestige whoring though. I imagine most people capable of Harvard MSTP admissions were very capable back in high school and had great college options. The AAMC survey is the first real evidence I've seen of undergrad selectivity in and of itself being a heavily weighted factor.

 

[Lucca]

I'm confused how pre-med powerhouse and Ivy are different categories! You mean you went somewhere like Hopkins or UCLA and had to deal with deflation?


I'd be surprised if Duke really beat out the rest of the Ivy League


Impossible to separate the self-selection from prestige whoring though. I imagine most people capable of Harvard MSTP admissions were very capable back in high school and had great college options. The AAMC survey is the first real evidence I've seen of undergrad selectivity in and of itself being a heavily weighted factor.

I think the culprit is that MSTPs are very small programs. The medians are already in the top 1-5% territory and when you have people with fairly equivalent levels of research experience, the only differentiating factor left is undergraduate prestige. I think we could do a better job of differentiating between individuals than having to resort to a metric that reflects first, parental pedigree, second, income, third, high school pedigree, and fourth (and last) high school performance. We're masking the real decision behind a secondary metric to hide the fact that the decision itself is truly arbitrary. You could shuffle the classes of all of the NIH funded MSTPs 10 times around and dont significantly change any one program in my opinion. I do believe there are differences between undergrads in terms of resources and mentors but I think those differences are largely negligible for about 50% of the institutions ranked on the USNWR, public or private. The scarcity of undergraduate educational resources is a modern myth and more like clever marketing than something based in fact.

 

[SurgeonOfLife]

this is the most depressing chart on SDN because, frankly, even though these are small programs the lack of institutional diversity at the programs which are supposed to be exemplary, not exceptions, really shows you how elitist our academic system is.

Ya, very :-/

Impossible to separate the self-selection from prestige whoring though. I imagine most people capable of Harvard MSTP admissions were very capable back in high school and had great college options. The AAMC survey is the first real evidence I've seen of undergrad selectivity in and of itself being a heavily weighted factor.

Maybe impossible to separate quantitatively, but I am quite confident it is there in significant proportions.

However, just like in clinical trials, we have age-matched controls, we can have stats AND EC-matched applicants where the only major difference is UG institution. I'm sure adcoms can do this easily as they have seen enough applications. They can reliably group applicants into very similar categories - I know LizzyM has mentioned no applicant is truly unique, just very interesting, so certain similar outstanding applicants are bound to come up again.

Effectively removing self-selecting bias, then we can do a statistical test of proportions to see if there is a bias towards name brand institutions.

 

[coffeeandcodeine]

.

 

[caffeinemia]

Okay so my younger brother is trying to decide if he should attend an Ivy League undergrad or a smaller LAC like Kenyon or Oberlin.

I told him that gpa and MCAT determine med school school admission but I'm curious, did graduating from an Ivy League help people get into the upper tier med schools?

Which schools did the Ivy Leaguers out there get into this cycle?

I'm way farther out than your brother or recent grads from college -- but I got some excellent interviews -- likely from my undergraduate pedigree (Harvard). I interviewed at Columbia, Stanford, Northwestern, and a good number of UC medical schools. I went to school on half tuition, and my parents paid a hefty price for my college education (I'm still thankful to this day)... decision on whether it is worth it or not is up to you, but here's my take (n of 1):

- I had a great time and met the coolest people and did so many cool things around the world. Can you do that anywhere? Sure -- but it was sooo easy. All I had to do was ask and it was there for the picking.
- The classroom education was superb -- seminars with the people taught supreme court justices or discovered the structure of DNA? Sure! Welcome!
- LORs were from Nobel laureates, HHMI professors, etc.
- Advising was out of this world -- I had a house (dorm) tutor, premed tutor, Harvard Medical School student advisor. Everyone read my essays, gave me ideas about where to apply, kept me on track.
- Name recognition. Even to this day, when I step into the operating room with a new attending, a common topic of conversation is ... oh my daughter/son/yadayada is going to/wants to go to HYP, did you like it there? What do you think his/her chances are? Interviews for residency still included questions about my college experience (don't know why, given that I went to an excellent medical school and had plenty to say about that.)

Just keep in mind that there are a lot of unspoken advantages to the brand name. The world is a superficial place that places a lot of weight on image. Ride it all the way to the bank .

 

[KDoc2020]

Coming from a state school perspective(AZ), I can tell you that going to an IVY for UG will not have much bearing on going to a top program for med school. In my group of friends, we have people who took advantage of various opportunities and had good grades and did well on exams and those who didn't. Consequently within our group we have people going to too MD programs at Columbia, Hopkins, Mayo, Stanford, Duke, WUSTL, UNC, UCSD, UCLA(as a Geffen Scholar) and those who are fortunate to be getting into smaller DO programs. Personal drive and accountability are the key factors but I certainly would not discount the connections/options at a major IVY.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[ridethecliche]

Coming from a state school perspective(AZ), I can tell you that going to an IVY for UG will not have much bearing on going to a top program for med school. In my group of friends, we have people who took advantage of various opportunities and had good grades and did well on exams and those who didn't. Consequently within our group we have people going to too MD programs at Columbia, Hopkins, Mayo, Stanford, Duke, WUSTL, UNC, UCSD, UCLA(as a Geffen Scholar) and those who are fortunate to be getting into smaller DO programs. Personal drive and accountability are the key factors but I certainly would not discount the connections/options at a major IVY.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

So which is it? It does or doesn't make a difference. Your post says both.

You know it's an election year when people start talking about personal drive and accountability being important. No ****. This isn't a game of candyland.

 

[futuremdforme]

I thought Ivy Leagues has grade inflation, not deflation. Given that many people change their minds, I think the Ivy is the better bet as it will make a huge difference if he pursues anything other than medicine. This might even be later in his career if he decides to do an MBA (as a doctor). It will also give him better research opportunities.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Do you think it really does though? I know in the insane world of college confidential there are such things as upper vs mid Ivy, but do you think anybody in admissions has ever said oh, he only went to Dartmouth, I'd have given him an interview if only he'd come from Yale?

It's not as simplified as you are saying but yes this matters. I think this is one of the fallacies of the "going to a top UG boosts your application" arguments you see on SDN where people seem to suggest that all top 15 schools are largely the same. It's often a more nuanced and yet incredibly subjective at the same time.

Harvard, Yale and Princeton's name recognition sells. Period. Alot of these other schools have regional bias. I think mimelim highlighted the same thing to WedgeDawg when he came out with his applicant rating system last year. In reality people might think there is a distinction between WashU vs Northwestern vs Emory vs UNC vs Rochester. But often there isn't to many and this is something Ive seen from people Ive talked to on the other side of the process. Their often seems to be an attraction to the Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford name in a way there isnt to any other school. Obviously YMMV but it's a real thing.

I've seen this directly as well. I have a friend who went to Yale Med school(graduated recently) and he had access to a list of the three classes before him and where they all went to UG. There was a consistent trend. Im generalizing here but roughly 45% of the class went to either Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford or MIT. Another 20% went to Ivies in general. And then after that you had your non Ivy league schools. There wasnt any trend amongst this 35%: there were plenty of state schools, plenty of LACs, your Dukes, Northwesterns, WashU's etc. In reailty looking at that list it really looked like your Northwestern's or Vandy's of the world are largely treated like any other top 50 school. There werent too many non top 50 schools(although they existed): you would see Ohio State's and UC Irvine's of the world but I didnt see many Arizona State's or WVU's on that list.

The problem is people tend to look at this "where you went to UG" discussion as one of "the ones who go to the hardest schools get the biggest boost". This isnt really always the case. Often it's name brand, regardless of grade inflation/deflation, that provides the boost and that name brand comes from Harvard types.

 

[KDoc2020]

So which is it? It does or doesn't make a difference. Your post says both.

You know it's an election year when people start talking about personal drive and accountability being important. No ****. This isn't a game of candyland.

What I'm saying is that it's not going to be like a member of an Ad-Com will care that much that you went to Brown or Harvard for example. However the research opportunities/funding would maybe be higher. I know it took ALOT effort for my friends and I to finesse a research job much less a paid one in UG but not the case for a cousin of mine who goes to Stanford. There are some connections/opportunities at an Ivy League school but they are not going to be enough to make up deficiencies in GPA/MCAT


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[throk]

Unless you have numbers and data from all


True, but the survey nor the respondents define what selectivity meant and there is no standard definition across medical schools. The definition used by medical schools is apparently equivalent to Supreme Court Justice Stewart Potters quote on pornography : " I know it when I see it"

Sure, and we don't have a hard standardized definition for what "high importance" translates to, especially relative to moderate or low. Guess that means grades, scores, service, letters and interviews are really only "highly important" in a wishy washy sense?

 

[MaxPlancker]

If it says "selectivity", going to HYPS will help without a doubt to private medical schools. There's no way to deny those colleges aren't selective, even in the barest sense. As to how much it helps, could be +0.000001 or +5 LizzyM equivalents (just using a random metric).

 

[efle]

It's not as simplified as you are saying but yes this matters. I think this is one of the fallacies of the "going to a top UG boosts your application" arguments you see on SDN where people seem to suggest that all top 15 schools are largely the same. It's often a more nuanced and yet incredibly subjective at the same time.

Harvard, Yale and Princeton's name recognition sells. Period. Alot of these other schools have regional bias. I think mimelim highlighted the same thing to WedgeDawg when he came out with his applicant rating system last year. In reality people might think there is a distinction between WashU vs Northwestern vs Emory vs UNC vs Rochester. But often there isn't to many and this is something Ive seen from people Ive talked to on the other side of the process. Their often seems to be an attraction to the Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford name in a way there isnt to any other school. Obviously YMMV but it's a real thing.

I've seen this directly as well. I have a friend who went to Yale Med school(graduated recently) and he had access to a list of the three classes before him and where they all went to UG. There was a consistent trend. Im generalizing here but roughly 45% of the class went to either Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford or MIT. Another 20% went to Ivies in general. And then after that you had your non Ivy league schools. There wasnt any trend amongst this 35%: there were plenty of state schools, plenty of LACs, your Dukes, Northwesterns, WashU's etc. In reailty looking at that list it really looked like your Northwestern's or Vandy's of the world are largely treated like any other top 50 school. There werent too many non top 50 schools(although they existed): you would see Ohio State's and UC Irvine's of the world but I didnt see many Arizona State's or WVU's on that list.

The problem is people tend to look at this "where you went to UG" discussion as one of "the ones who go to the hardest schools get the biggest boost". This isnt really always the case. Often it's name brand, regardless of grade inflation/deflation, that provides the boost and that name brand comes from Harvard types.

This information is publicly available. See for example here for class of 2014-2015 and here for 2013-2014

In 2014-2015, numbers were:

Yale 13%
Harvard 12%
MIT 5%
Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth 4%
Hopkins, Penn, Stanford, WUSTL 3%
Columbia, Emory, Rice, UC Berkeley, UCLA, USC, Wellesley, Williams 2%

~30 places sending only 1 person, including names like Duke, Northwestern, Bowdoin, Amherst, Vanderbilt, Middlebury, Swarthmore, Vassar, along with state schools and a few foreign universities. Nobody from Princeton or U Chicago.

...doesn't really read like HYPSM > other ivy > everyone else to me. Clearly you're in a small minority coming from a state university, but WUSTL vs Penn? Stanford vs Hopkins? Is one really going to help that much more? I'll need more convincing that there is such a clear pecking order like you propose, if were going to go by who makes up their class.

 

[GrapesofRath]

This information is publicly available. See for example here for class of 2014-2015 and here for 2013-2014

In 2014-2015, numbers were:

Yale 13%
Harvard 12%
MIT 5%
Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth 4%
Hopkins, Penn, Stanford, WUSTL 3%
Columbia, Emory, Rice, UC Berkeley, UCLA, USC, Wellesley, Williams 2%

~30 places sending only 1 person, including names like Duke, Northwestern, Bowdoin, Amherst, Vanderbilt, Middlebury, Swarthmore, Vassar, along with state schools and a few foreign universities. Nobody from Princeton or U Chicago.

...doesn't really read like HYPSM > other ivy > everyone else to me. Clearly you're in a small minority coming from a state university, but WUSTL vs Penn? Stanford vs Hopkins? Is one really going to help that much more? I'll need more convincing that there is such a clear pecking order like you propose, if were going to go by who makes up their class.

Interesting. I hadnt seen this before specifically Ill have to take a look. The person Im talking about wasnt referring to these classes he was referring to earlier ones and that was what I saw but yes this is quite different than what I had seen so I am surprised. Ill take a look at it though and see what I notice. Maybe they have trended towards cutting back on that in recent years or maybe it's just a pure coincidence. No idea but this is interesting to see.

 

[hyperIgM]

Throwaway account. I'm a Dartmouth alum, currently at a tippy-top medical school.

While I had a fantastic time at Dartmouth, there were definitely people who did not, so individual opinions and experiences do differ. However, what the Ivies (and other universities like MIT and Stanford) do offer is a (1) huge endowment, which allows for student funding for a whole range of different activities, such as (2) a higher faculty-to-student ratio, and (3) closer alumni connections. This means that these schools provide an incredible array of opportunities. My courses at Dartmouth were between 2 (special history seminar) to 60 students (organic chemistry), which gave me many opportunities to get to know my professors. This was great for my education, since I didn't have to compete with other students for the professors' attention. Plus, through alumni connections I was able to shadow a wide range of alumni back in my home town/whatever city I happened to be in for long-term and undertake a number of creative projects in non-science disciplines.

Me: Hey, I don't know you, but I went to your school decades after you did, could you help me out?
Rad Onc/Peds/Derm/Anesthesiologist/Famous Guy: Sure!
Me: Awesome.
(And when we met up in person, we always talked about old traditions and some of the unforgettable restaurants/places that we craved every once in a while.)

Me: Hey, I got this funding from the school to do a research project + travel across the country to present my research at a national symposium. Can I work in your lab?
Professor: Sure!
Me: Awesome.

Me: Hey, I want to start this one organization, and I want you to raise the budget for one of the organizations that I'm already in charge of because we've been doing some amazing things.
Administrator: Sure!
Me: Awesome.

(After graduation)
Me: Hey, you're wearing a Dartmouth cap! Nice to see you. I'm a recent alum.
Dartmouth alumnus from decades ago: Nice to see you too! Do you now go to school here?
Me: Yes, I go to the med school
Dartmouth alumnus from decades ago: My child (also at Dartmouth) is thinking about med school. Would you be interested in talking with him/her?
Me: Sure!
Dartmouth alumnus from decades ago: Awesome.
(And the cycle continues)

However, opportunities are not limited to ivy league institutions. Right now in my medical school, and among my class, there are graduates of the Ivy Leagues, MIT, Stanford, as well as students local colleges, public universities throughout the country, and fantastic liberal arts colleges. One common thread that I can observe is that we were able to use the opportunities provided by our respective institutions to excel in our own way, whether that was through health policy, entrepreneurship, research, etc.

So, in all, I believe that prestige is a poor proxy for predicting future success, and while Ivy League schools probably do have more money to spend on its students, students who work hard can be successful anywhere. Best of luck to your brother! With those choices, it would be very difficult to go wrong, and the toughest part is about what comes after--making the most of his opportunities!

 

[GrapesofRath]

@efle

I went through the 2013-14 data I havent done 2014-15. But basically here is what I saw

Class of 2013: 95 total graduates
Harvard MIT Yale Princeton Stanford Grads: 31(Harvard in particular had 14). 31/95: 32.6%
The 5 other Ivies: 8

So grads who come from HYPSM or Ivies: 39/95: 41%

Now for other top 25 private schools here are the ones I saw. There are 12 schools total I think that fit this classificaiton
JHU: 4 Duke: 2 Emory: 1 Northwestern: 1 Total: 8/95: 8%

Other top 50 schools such as Maryland, UCs, Michigan and UVA: 11. 11/95: 11-12% There are 25 possible schools that could fit this classification.

There are 12 top 25 private schools that arent Ivies. There are 5 schools out of HYPSM. Yet HYPSM accounts for 4X as many grads as the other top 25 private schools despite there being 2.5X fewer schools in the HYPSM group. It's also worth noting there are 5 non HYPSM Ivies and they account for 8 grads while the other top 25 privates(12 of them) also account for 8 grads. Meanwhile top 25-50 schools(25 total) account for 11 grads.

My Takeaway:
1) Clearly HYPSM produces a disproportionate total of Yale grads.
2) Ivies produce more Yale grads than other top 25 private schools.
3) The proportion of schools in the top 25-50 that produce Yale grads isnt that much different than top 25 privates that arent Ivies/Stanford/MIT

Obviously there are clear limitations from one sample size that comes from only one graduating class. Goes without saying.

So the numbers are different, it's not 45% HYPSM for Yale grads like the data I saw from a friend. But the trend is still in many ways the same. Whether or not HYPSM's name provides a major advantage or if HYPSM grads really are just that much better on average is the age old question you'll get a million different answers on. The truth is somewhere in the middle but my gut is it tends to be more towards the latter.

 

[efle]

You can't really lump HYPSM like that that, though, since it just lets their own undergrad and harvard carry the other names. I get 91 total grads, with

Harvard 16%
Yale 8%
MIT 5%
Hopkins, Stanford 3%
Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Duke, Northwestern, Penn, Berkeley, UCLA 2%
Many others sending only one including names like Princeton, U Chicago, Amherst, Emory, Michigan, UVa, USC etc. WUSTL absent, Dartmouth absent.

I applaud you for a pretty good spin as HYPSM > Ivy > others! But really all I see, again, is

• a huge range even within HYPSM (16 vs 1, last time 13 vs 0)
• Non-Ivy doing as well or better than Ivy (like Hopkins and Northwestern here, Hopkins and WUSTL other year)
• A lot of variation between years, with places doing as well as Ivy one year and absent the next.

Still very, very unconvinced that HYPSM stands alone above other Ivy, or that Ivy is above non-Ivy top 15 or top 20...

 

[GrapesofRath]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree because I dont agree with your general conclusion or how you interpret it. But that's kind of the beauty of it at the same time and you can bet if we do many many others who do this for a living in admission do as well.

Btw I did not go to an Ivy or HYPSM if anybody is wondering so I really dont have any personal bias in the manner at all.