J/D vs. JM diet

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BlistexWorks

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My work has sent quite a few shelter and rescue animals to a couple of different orthopedic specialists for various surgeries and work-ups. When making recommendations, nobody has ever mentioned this food. We've always been told to supplement with, say, cosequin or glycoflex (or whatever the preferred supplement happens to be for that specific patient), prescribed NSAIDs as necessary, and usually been told to keep dogs on the light side, weight-wise.

That doesn't give you much specific information, but it's all I've got. Hopefully someone else can be of more help!
 
here's my two cents on j/d (no experience with jm) We recommend it to a lot of big dogs and post ACL surgeries. We do about 30 ACL's a year at our tiny little clinic and what a difference it makes, especially on really arthritic dogs that have tried weight management, NSAIDs and glucosamine products with little effect. All the above are great and we recommend them as well, but the j/d seems to have a real multiplying effect with these. Our office manager has a Newfoundland who was on glycoflex and kept at a low weight for a long time but after a while she started slowing down again. J/d has really helped her bounce back and cut back her rimadyl use significantly. My brother's dog had both ACL's repaired and a year later was still lame, even with lots of rimadyl and glucosamine. Two months after switching to j/d she started using her legs and putting on muscle and now 9 months later she is back to her old self.

On the downside, the food is very expensive (even with employee discounts) and tends to put weight on so you really have to measure portions. It also makes their coat a little greasy and my dog tends to smell a bit like fish oil when she sweats/gets hot. Small price to pay to see her running and jumping and skiing again though! All the clients we have on this food have similar stories and I would never recommend something expensive like that if I didn't really think it was great, which I do!
 
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It is high in omega 3s which is what helps with the inflammation. The amount of glucosamine in the product probably does not make a huge difference. I would think you would have a similar effect if you use your normal dog food and supplement high amount of omega 3's in.
 
I really love J/D. About 9 of months ago my 8 year old springer spaniel, who otherwise is very active started getting really sore and was limping all the time, We did give him some NSAIDs but that only seemed to help a little bit. Now he has been on J/D for 2 months and I saw improvement in a week. He runs like a little puppy now and is no longer stiff!!!
 
I used J/D for my two dogs and did notice a real difference in their lameness from hip dysplasia. The food is super expensive though, so I am experimenting with adding salmon oil to non prescription science diet food to see if that works as well. It contains EPA which is what the Hill's vet I spoke with said was the ingredient that makes J/D work, in fact she said that the glucos/chondro was just there for show. I'll let you know the results.
 
So, I just have experience with dog nutrition on a personal level - I am *really* picky.

The stuff in both of these are good - omega 3s and such. But what about the other stuff? Why would your dog want to eat ground corn most of all? (1st ingredient in the j/d) It has a LOT of filler in it. Peanut hulls? No thanks!

There are a lot of better quality dog foods available, IMO. Timberwolf Organics (http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-foods), Canidae, Wellness, Innova...

Just my humble opinion! I don't want my dog to eat "chicken by product meal" at all.
 
So, I just have experience with dog nutrition on a personal level - I am *really* picky.

The stuff in both of these are good - omega 3s and such. But what about the other stuff? Why would your dog want to eat ground corn most of all? (1st ingredient in the j/d) It has a LOT of filler in it. Peanut hulls? No thanks!

There are a lot of better quality dog foods available, IMO. Timberwolf Organics (http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-foods), Canidae, Wellness, Innova...

Just my humble opinion! I don't want my dog to eat "chicken by product meal" at all.
Me too! I don't tend to comment on the food stuff very often. Especially since the office I work at actually sells almost exclusively Hill's products. They aren't bad foods, but I don't feed them to my little girl. Any corn products = not happenning.
 
Amen!

Do most vet places sell Hills because of all the work they do through school? I wonder b/c I know they aren't BAD foods, but I'd hardly say they were the best. Why do so many vets endorse them?
 
I think it is because they do a lot of work through the schools, it is a medium quality food so it's more affordable to some of the people who really couldn't afford the nicer foods, and nutrition is one of the least emphasized areas in vet medicine (mostly because it is such a new area of research and, quite honestly, most vets find it kind of a drag to learn).

Just my opinion, but it's what I've noticed.
 
So, I just have experience with dog nutrition on a personal level - I am *really* picky.

The stuff in both of these are good - omega 3s and such. But what about the other stuff? Why would your dog want to eat ground corn most of all? (1st ingredient in the j/d) It has a LOT of filler in it. Peanut hulls? No thanks!

There are a lot of better quality dog foods available, IMO. Timberwolf Organics (http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-foods), Canidae, Wellness, Innova...

Just my humble opinion! I don't want my dog to eat "chicken by product meal" at all.

:thumbup:Haha, I was waiting for someone to post soemthing like this. I was too lazy to :rolleyes:. I was thinking of just typing a response that said "Neither." Anyway, Timberwolf is great, there is one newer food that not many people know about, Orijen, that seems to be a little better and a little cheaper as TO just recently increased their prices. It's 70% protein--I believe the highest you can get in kibble form. You can google it to get their actual website, but I found the cheapest at http://www.heartypet.com/products.php?cat=315&PARTNER=GAW&gclid=CL6-iZDrkJICFRGoGgodkRXI_w

It's $48 I think for 29 lbs. I get it at my door in ONE day. I have an 11 yr old dog who started having problems with arthritis, he was doing pretty good on Timberwolf but I wanted to to try Orijen and I started adding salmon oil to it. He's kind of picky and prefers the Orijen in taste and I have noticed he has perked up considerably (which could be a good or bad thing because he seems to want to play anytime I sit down to study). His arthritis hasn't shown up AT ALL since I started added the fish oil.

On the flip side, my bf's doberman has a sensitive stomach and didn't do well on adult Orijen for whatever reason (he did fine on large breed puppy) and does best on TO, although this has nothing to do with joint problems or anything.
 
My dog was on J/D for ... I think about a year. She was doing really well on it. Since I can get a bag of JM for free once a month, I switched her to it last semester.

She gained 10 lbs. between August and December when I came home from break. Whether it's due strictly to the food, or because my husband was caring for her, I can't be certain. I'm 99.99% sure he was feeding her the exact same amount, since he measures it as I showed him. Maybe I was just that much more active with her (more walks, etc.).

Anyway, since an extra 10 lbs. wasn't good for her degenerative joint disease, I have since switched her to OM to get the weight off. Haven't weighed her yet, but she looks really good to me, since I came home last night for spring break and immediately stopped to admire the return of her "hourglass" figure! :D

(She's also on Glycoflex III and Rimadyl).
 
I'm a little surprised this thread hasn't been closed yet. We're not allowed to give clinical advice and prescription foods are legally prescriptions, governed by the applicable laws. (If you're not getting the depth of advice you want from your own vet, most vet schools are going to have a clinical nutrition service so you could try there.)

That said, two more general comments on pet food for the thread:

A) I'm not really out to change anyone's feeding religion, but just so all the anti-byproduct folks know, wonderful nutritious vitamin-rich stuff like liver, lungs, hearts, and kidneys (that a dog would actually be eating if it were out killing and/or scavenging its own meals) are "byproducts" according to AAFCO, which is the independent regulatory body that governs things like definitions of animal feed ingredients. So foods that contain organ meats *cannot* be labeled "no byproducts." And conversely, any food that wants to jump on the "no byproducts" marketing bandwagon is going to have to add more artificial/chemical supplementation, because the muscle meat you're paying extra for is pretty deficient in an awful lot of nutrients. On the other hand, "chicken byproduct meal" can actually be a very complete high-quality source of nutrition, despite the unappetizing name. Kinda ironic, no?

B) One of our nutrition profs made a point about the use of corn in pet foods. It's true, a dog "in the wild" would not eat corn. But that doesn't mean that the dog's digestive system cannot extract good nutrition from corn and other grains. When it comes right down to it, whatever you put in the gut is broken down and actually gets absorbed as monosaccharides, amino acids, fatty acids... So as long as the food you're putting in has the right balance of building blocks, with good bioavailability for the particular species you're feeding, the source is really not critical to overall nutrition.
 
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So, I just have experience with dog nutrition on a personal level - I am *really* picky.

The stuff in both of these are good - omega 3s and such. But what about the other stuff? Why would your dog want to eat ground corn most of all? (1st ingredient in the j/d) It has a LOT of filler in it. Peanut hulls? No thanks!

There are a lot of better quality dog foods available, IMO. Timberwolf Organics (http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-foods), Canidae, Wellness, Innova...

Just my humble opinion! I don't want my dog to eat "chicken by product meal" at all.

Quality dog foods are all fine and dandy and on a normal basis that is what I would feed my dog. But unfortunately when your dog gets older and develops the unfortunate diseases that come with age what do you do? For all the Science Diet/Royal Canin/IVD bashers because they use their corns and brewers rice they are the only option if you want a prescription diet. Take my for example. My dogs have been on Blue Buffalo as their maintenance food but recently my dog was diagnosed with some renal problems and I need to switch her to a low phosphorous, low protein food. Now theres k/d and LP 10 and Modified which all meet my criterion but also use the lower quality ingredients. But good luck finding a food like Canidae quality that will keep my dog from going into kidney failure.

J/D is another perfect example. Whats another quality food that makes a diet strictly for joints? Yeah you could go out and buy a regular food and then buy supplements like EPA, Fish Oil, ALA, Carnitine, and Glucosamine Condroiton, but beside maybe having trouble finding a few of those good luck paying all that extra money for it.

How about a diet like SO or S/D? My parents Golden retriever would get urinary tract infections and struvite crystals on any food she tried. She would get them monthly, we'd treat, shed be clean, she'd get them again. We'd put her on S/d for the crystals, theyd go away, we'd put her back on a regular diet, they'd come right back. Now she is on Royal Canin SO for good and all her urinary problems have gone away. So shes eating a little less quality food? Its better than the having infections and stones in the future.

Im not the biggest fan of Science Diets regular diets but until one of the top quality companies you advocate come up with prescription type diets there is no better alternative. Maybe the reason so many doctors advocate Science Diet has less to do with free bags of food in vet school and a lot more to do with the fact that their prescription diets actually work.
 
We're not allowed to give clinical advice

Agreed. It's one thing for us to discuss the merits/downsides of commercial pet foods, but when a vet is using a prescription diet as part of a larger treatment plan, those decisions should be made between the doctor and the client.

When it comes right down to it, whatever you put in the gut is broken down and actually gets absorbed as monosaccharides, amino acids, fatty acids... So as long as the food you're putting in has the right balance of building blocks, with good bioavailability for the particular species you're feeding, the source is really not critical to overall nutrition.

From what we've learned in GI physiology, this is debatable. We still know very little about to what extent nutrients are broken down before they get absorbed, so it's really hard to say that source doesn't matter as long as the final breakdown product is the same.

While I don't buy the idea that we should look to ancestral roots for guidance on how we should treat our dogs today (i.e. a nice flea and tick load would be very natural for a wolf, but not what I want for my dog), I do believe that the onus is on pet food companies that use corn to demonstrate that corn is as good as or better than a meat-based diet. The main justification that I've seen for using corn is that it's cheaper than meat, but cost isn't the primary factor that I look for in choosing a dog food. Until we see some side-by-side studies of corn-based and meat-based diets, I have no reason to believe that a corn-based diet is the same as or better than a meat-based diet.

I don't think corn should be demonized, as it so often is, as the cause of all allergies, diarrhea, cancer, etc etc etc. I saw a dog the other day who was nearly bald and so itchy that he was keeping his owner up a night. She spent a year switching around his foods because she was so sure he had food allergies, but our dermatologist found sarcoptic mange instead. How much time did that dog suffer because people at the dog park told this woman that dogs itch because of corn? Pet store clerks love to blame everything on poor food, and while I strongly agree that nutrition is the basis of health, it isn't always the basis of disease.
 
Actually, my understanding is that "prescription" diets are not legally prescription items in the way drugs are. They are still food - food formulated to manage a particular medical condition, yes, but still food. There are no drugs in the food. Salmon oil and glucosamine are supplements that anyone can purchase OTC in the vitamin aisle of the local drugstore.

This is why I'm able to buy whatever food I want where I work - for example, if I run out of my cats' usual canned food I'll buy i/d or w/d, which are okay maintenance diets for healthy animals - and why the doctors are always fine if I want to send a geriatric, inappetant animal home with whatever prescription diet he was willing to eat in the hospital even if it's not a diet designed to manage whatever condition he has.
 
They aren't prescriptions like drugs in that there isn't FDA oversight of their formulation, but I don't know of any clinics that would send out a prescription diet with a client without a valid doctor-client-patient relationship.

Prescription or no, I think this thread is coming close to giving out medical advice (using JD, JM, or supplements/non-prescription diets to manage a medical condition)....
 
We still know very little about to what extent nutrients are broken down before they get absorbed, so it's really hard to say that source doesn't matter as long as the final breakdown product is the same.

While I don't buy the idea that we should look to ancestral roots for guidance on how we should treat our dogs today (i.e. a nice flea and tick load would be very natural for a wolf, but not what I want for my dog), I do believe that the onus is on pet food companies that use corn to demonstrate that corn is as good as or better than a meat-based diet. The main justification that I've seen for using corn is that it's cheaper than meat, but cost isn't the primary factor that I look for in choosing a dog food. Until we see some side-by-side studies of corn-based and meat-based diets, I have no reason to believe that a corn-based diet is the same as or better than a meat-based diet.

I don't think corn should be demonized, as it so often is, as the cause of all allergies, diarrhea, cancer, etc etc etc. I saw a dog the other day who was nearly bald and so itchy that he was keeping his owner up a night. She spent a year switching around his foods because she was so sure he had food allergies, but our dermatologist found sarcoptic mange instead. How much time did that dog suffer because people at the dog park told this woman that dogs itch because of corn? Pet store clerks love to blame everything on poor food, and while I strongly agree that nutrition is the basis of health, it isn't always the basis of disease.

To me, corn isn't bad in small amounts, especially for animals who need the extra calories. However, since corn has been used as a replacement for sugars and grains in human food (started in the 70s because of the corn surplus), there has definitely been an increase in human diabetes. I have a small suspicion that this might correlate with canine diabetes as well (though the fact that dogs are simply getting fatter with people cannot in any way be ignored).
I don't want my dog eating food with a lot of corn in it because she is very small (a 9 pound Papillon), and gains weight easily. I have yet to find a way to keep my parents from giving her treats every time I turn around, so a low grain, high lean meat food is best for her.
Also, I would not in any way consider this thread medical advice. While both foods which began on this thread are prescription diets, it really is just a discussion about the merits of using said diets. AND, the ingredients in these prescription diets are really not very different at all from the regular Science Diet foods.

Please do not think that I look down on anyone else's feeding preferences (though I would if you were feeding Ol Roy, I draw the line there). I just think that there isn't a whole lot of research out there on nutrition and a lot of the ingredients found in animal foods are about like the ingredients found in prepackaged human food--not ideal. I just said what I feed my dog.
 
^ I totally agree with Steelmagghia - I have an 18 lb terrier with allergy issues so the fewer grain ingredients in food, the better he deals. And he's picky, and I try to switch between novel protein sources.

Considering this post was just asking for opinions on the diets, I don't think we've strayed too far - or out of our range.
 
A) I'm not really out to change anyone's feeding religion, but just so all the anti-byproduct folks know, wonderful nutritious vitamin-rich stuff like liver, lungs, hearts, and kidneys (that a dog would actually be eating if it were out killing and/or scavenging its own meals) are "byproducts" according to AAFCO, which is the independent regulatory body that governs things like definitions of animal feed ingredients. So foods that contain organ meats *cannot* be labeled "no byproducts." And conversely, any food that wants to jump on the "no byproducts" marketing bandwagon is going to have to add more artificial/chemical supplementation, because the muscle meat you're paying extra for is pretty deficient in an awful lot of nutrients. On the other hand, "chicken byproduct meal" can actually be a very complete high-quality source of nutrition, despite the unappetizing name. Kinda ironic, no?

I am a whole prey model raw feeder (and I also feed about 20% super premium commercial canned, especially on days when I have a test the next morning). I try to recreate the carcass of the animal, so for instance, I buy whole roaster chickens (with giblets when I can find them) and feed organ meat as well (mostly a bit of liver, some gizzards and hearts, etc). I also have raw feeding friends that raise their own rabbits for this purpose (perhaps if I get a fence up this spring, I'll raise my own chickens). I also feed ground green cow tripe (along with a lot of other things, but anyways). As you correctly point out, by-products in and of themselves are not bad, especially when I can buy them locally from local farmers and support local sustainable agriculture where I know the animals have been raised humanely. These are all human grade meats, except for the green cow tripe, which technically cannot be sold for human consumption until it has been scalded and bleached.

However, as should be abundantly clear from the numerous pet food recalls as well as the recalls of the beef from downed cows, these huge multi billion dollar companies look for the very cheapest of the cheap in terms of ingredients. If your average bag of Purina Dog Chow costs the consumer $0.30 a pound at Sam's Club, do you really think they are using high quality ingredients, including by-products? It doesn't take an MBA to realize that the bottom line of finding cheap sources of ingredients for these mass produced foods is more important than ensuring quality. How many times have I heard "it's just dog food" as if we humans should exist on a higher plane of nutrition than dogs. :rolleyes: As the Whole Dog Journal commented in their February 2008 issue on dry pet foods:

We reject any food containing meat by-products or poultry by-products. It's just about impossible to ascertain the quality of by-products used by a a food manufacturer. We've spoken to representatives who swore they used only the finest sources of by-products, but when asked, they all say that! The fact is, there is a much wider range of quality in the by-products available for pet food manufacturing than there is for whole meats. Whole meats are expensive, and because they are expensive, dog food makers insist on their quality to an extent that is unreasonable when buying bargain-basement by-products.
B) One of our nutrition profs made a point about the use of corn in pet foods. It's true, a dog "in the wild" would not eat corn. But that doesn't mean that the dog's digestive system cannot extract good nutrition from corn and other grains. When it comes right down to it, whatever you put in the gut is broken down and actually gets absorbed as monosaccharides, amino acids, fatty acids... So as long as the food you're putting in has the right balance of building blocks, with good bioavailability for the particular species you're feeding, the source is really not critical to overall nutrition.
In your nutrition class, did you cover the chart which discusses bioavailablity and digestibility of various ingredients used for protein sources? It's the one where egg protein is the most digestible. Then we have various animal proteins and then on down the list, we have various plant proteins. I'm sure you learned that plant proteins are less digestible than animal proteins, as we covered that numerous times. I can't access the notes from that class or that particular chart, but corn was quite a ways down the list, below rice and soy, if I recall. So all those cheap calories (as that's what they are as by-products of the agricultural industry) can go in one end and out the other if it's not highly digestible like animal protein is. How do you know how digestible it is? Take a look at the fecal volume output of a dog on Science Diet, Purina Dog Chow, Beneful, Ol' Roy, compared to Canidae, Chicken Soup, Evo, Wellness, etc. and it's pretty obvious which is more digestible. If they can't digest it well, it ain't gonna be doing much good.

I am not one of the folks who thinks that all dog food should contain no grain at all. I realize that there has to be a way to bind together the kibble, either with something like potato, tapioca, rice, etc. I also realize that in the wild, wolves, pariah dogs, etc would be eating small rodents and rabbits pretty much whole and they would likely be eating a small amount of grasses and grains when eating those animals whole, especially seed and grain eaters like mice and voles. However, there is absolutely no need for all these foods to contain loads of corn, soy, wheat, sorghum, etc. that many of them do. A small amount is permissible. But animal nutritionists (and the companies they work for) spend huge amounts of money trying to see what they can get away with feeding to save money. It's just good business to them. And all that junk is for the most part just cheap calories, nothing more.

So the crux of it is, which I've asked on VIN multiple times and to which I have never got a single straight answer from any of the diplomates of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition is this: not can dogs and cats eat grain heavy foods (as obviously they can with varying results), but should they? As someone who wants to eventually do a nutrition residency (especially on the holistic side of things), I would resoundingly say NO. They are not species appropriate ingredients in the levels that they are commonly found at. It is for human economics and for convenience that these grain heavy ingredients are used, nothing more.
 
In your nutrition class, did you cover the chart which discusses bioavailablity and digestibility of various ingredients used for protein sources?

I think the table you're referring to can be found on page 58 of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, 4th Edition.

Also, I would not in any way consider this thread medical advice. While both foods which began on this thread are prescription diets, it really is just a discussion about the merits of using said diets. AND, the ingredients in these prescription diets are really not very different at all from the regular Science Diet foods.

I respectfully disagree- if I were the original poster, I would seriously be considering not feeding J/D or JM after reading these replies. That would be fine if I then discussed that decision with my vet, who prescribed the diet as part of a treatment plan for whatever disease my dog happens to have. But, I could just as easily dump my newly-prescribed bag of J/D, head down to GNC and buy some glucosamine/chondroitin, and feel like I'm treating my dog better than my vet would have. Medical advice?

We don't know any clinical history, we don't know what disease process the vet is trying to manage, and we don't know what the other components of the treatment plan are (if any). It's fine to give our opinions about how J/D worked for a dog with DJD or whatever, but we've wandered into the realm of criticizing all Hill's prescription diets with little or no clinical experience seeing their effect on patients.
 
Wow. I honestly wasn't trying to start a religious war, Electrophile, so I'll just go ahead and ignore the tone. But, two comments:

I also have raw feeding friends that raise their own rabbits for this purpose
There was a study done - I don't have the citation - where cats fed whole ground raw rabbit actually developed some nutrient deficiencies. It had all the researchers stumped because they were assuming that a whole raw herbivore is the best possible thing you could feed your cat, right? The situation is *always* more complicated than you expect it to be. :)

So...

Electrophile said:
How do you know how digestible it is?
...You do an AAFCO feeding trial, of course! It's kind of unfortunate, actually, that a lot of the ultra-premium food companies don't do feeding trials, either because they're small companies and can't afford them or because they want to cater to a research-opposed clientele. But it apparently does happen occasionally that ultra-premium not-so-cooked diets that are carefully and with honestly good intentions "formulated to meet standards set by AAFCO" actually come up short when somebody does run a feeding trial on them.

Oh, and just to clarify from other posts...
The health claims made on prescription pet food labels *are* governed by the FDA. The manufacturer has to prove to the FDA that their food does what they say it does before they can market it as such. (So no, there aren't drugs per se in the food, but the entire food is treated as a drug.) The fact that VeganSoprano's vet will send an inappetant patient home with whatever prescription food it will eat is a medically based judgment call akin to sending a patient home with whatever broad-spectrum antibiotic it doesn't immediately vomit back up, even if it's not the ideal one for its condition.
 
Wow. I honestly wasn't trying to start a religious war, Electrophile, so I'll just go ahead and ignore the tone. But, two comments:


There was a study done - I don't have the citation - where cats fed whole ground raw rabbit actually developed some nutrient deficiencies. It had all the researchers stumped because they were assuming that a whole raw herbivore is the best possible thing you could feed your cat, right? The situation is *always* more complicated than you expect it to be. :)

Considering my second bachelor's degree was in religious studies, I don't mind one bit discussing the religion of nutrition. ;) As far as my tone, it's actually much more polite that I typically hear on VIN from the vets who worship the Holy Quarternity (if that's a word!) of Hill's, Purina, IAMS, and Royal Canin and who love to bash home prepared or super premium diets.

But yes, I know the one you are referring to. They were taurine deficient, if I recall. But this is why if you are a raw feeder or home cooker, feeding just one animal protein source is not a good idea. Few raw feeders that I know feed just one animal protein source unless there is a specific reason for it (i.e.-food allergies). Variety is key, just like variety in our human diets is best. After all, how many animals other than say koalas eat one thing and one thing only? Cats and dogs sure don't. Which brings me to the next point...


So...


...You do an AAFCO feeding trial, of course! It's kind of unfortunate, actually, that a lot of the ultra-premium food companies don't do feeding trials, either because they're small companies and can't afford them or because they want to cater to a research-opposed clientele. But it apparently does happen occasionally that ultra-premium not-so-cooked diets that are carefully and with honestly good intentions "formulated to meet standards set by AAFCO" actually come up short when somebody does run a feeding trial on them.

Did you guys learn what an AAFCO feeding trial for maintenance entails? It's 26 weeks and there only need be 8 dogs that start the trial. Of the 8, only 6 need to pass it! Great statistical power there... :rolleyes: If I recall, a dog can lose up to 15% of its body weight and still pass. Hmmm, good for a weight loss diet, I suppose. :D AAFCO feeding trials are nice and all and if companies want to do them, go right ahead! But when you have Ol' Roy doing feeding trials, that doesn't really make me have a lot of faith in them. Heck, I have had a total of 5 dogs on a raw diet for over 6 months at a time. If I added just 3 more, maybe I could make my own patented Electrophile raw diet. :laugh:

I was on a thread on VIN about working dogs and one of the nutrition residents said they would not recommend a food that does not do feeding trials, so they automatically discounted good holistic brands that have been around a while (Natura, Nature's Variety, Merrick, Solid Gold, etc). Instead he recommended a high fat "performance" diet by Hill's or Eukanuba instead. Well, sure enough, I got on the various companies' respective website. Guess what? The performance Eukanuba diet they recommended had NOT undergone AAFCO feeding trials! Natura's Evo dry diets that I had recommended had and so have most of Nature's Variety raw frozen diet had (their chicken, beef, and lamb...looks like they're still working on their venison and rabbit)! :smuggrin: I heard a whole lot of silence after that.

Nutritionists should (and usually do) readily admit they are limited. Some vitamin and mineral deficiencies will show up pretty quickly in a 6.5 month trial, but others will not. For instance, our nutrition professor was one of the researchers that found that taurine deficiency can contribute to dilated cardiomyopathy in certain large breeds like Newfoundlands. It was his recommendation (and I concur) that a dog should not be on the same formula of food their entire life and to rotate formulas periodically to avoid nutrition deficiencies. Dogs and humans are incredibly adaptable in what they can eat, but like I said before, what they can eat versus what they should eat is the big question.
 
Did you guys learn what an AAFCO feeding trial for maintenance entails? It's 26 weeks and there only need be 8 dogs that start the trial. Of the 8, only 6 need to pass it! Great statistical power there... :rolleyes: If I recall, a dog can lose up to 15% of its body weight and still pass.

Why do you always make things so black and white? That's not all that is monitored in an AAFCO trial. Where I work, we do pregnancy and growth AAFCO trials for kittens and cats and I won't discuss what we've seen or found here, because that's not my place, but you would certainly be rather surprised.
 
And I don't care what concocation Science Diet adds to their foods, I ain't feeding my dog no "peanut hulls" and whatnot. :)

Thats obviously your choice but if your dog ages and develops some renal failure have fun feeding your 70% protein and nearly 1.5% phosphorus Orijen. Im sure your dogs kidneys will love it and thank you for saving the rest of its organs from the perils of corn while his kidneys waste away trying to deal with all the protein.

Or if your dog develops some crystals in his urine Im sure he wont mind you keeping him off a diet that could potentially keep him from developing stones as long as you keep him free from peanut hulls. Because whats some minor surgery every now and then to clean out the bladder right? Atleast he wont have to worry about pooping extra from all those grains right?
 
Why do you always make things so black and white? That's not all that is monitored in an AAFCO trial. Where I work, we do pregnancy and growth AAFCO trials for kittens and cats and I won't discuss what we've seen or found here, because that's not my place, but you would certainly be rather surprised.

Umm, shouldn't what we feed our pets day in and day out from gestation (through the nutrition in mom's body) to death be black and white? Yes, I do realize that is not all that is monitored in an AAFCO trial and neither did I say it was all (I specified maintenance for a reason).

Now, I don't have an AAFCO manual. I wish I did, but it looks you have to order one from them instead of being able to find the information online. How interesting that one interested in what goes into their pet food has to order a $50 publication instead of being able to read it online this day and age...though if anyone knows of how to get it (other than from the vet school library), please let me know! *digs out nutrition notes* However, from what I have in my notes, the following things are tested in a maintenance diet trial.

-all dogs (a minimum of 8) must be at least 1 year of age
-the diet in question must be the sole source of nutrition
-they are fed a minimum of 26 weeks
-they are physically examined at the beginning and end of the trial
-they are weighed once a week for body weight
-their hemoglobin, serum alkaline phosphatase, packed cell volume, and albumin levels are also checked

Nyanko, is there anything else you all test for that is of note that you'd like to add? I learned elsewhere (i.e.-not in my nutrition class) that feeding trials for puppies and kittens are a mere minimum of 10 weeks in duration. Is this true in your experience? Speaking of serum chemistry, I also have all my dogs do full blood once a year anyway to see how they are doing, especially my oldest dog. I really should get going on that patented Electrophile diet. :laugh:
 
I'm sorry but you DID make it sound like that was all. And no, I don't think that this scenario is black and white - individuals often react with things differently and will not all respond in the same way to the same food.

We don't do dogs, and haven't done a maintenance trial since I started working there. We've done 3 pregnancy-queening trials all followed by kitten growth trials. The queens are on the diet from a couple weeks before a male is introduced through 6 weeks post-partum, then kittens are selected for the growth portion, 10 weeks. The cats are weighed every week and their food intake is monitored every day from queening are born to 6 weeks post.

We usually use more than 8 animals for the studies. They are also monitored by human beings, not machines, so we can tell their overall health status as well. I'll tell you one thing without naming product names - at least one trial has been on a kibble that you probably wouldn't approve of, and at least one other has been on a raw diet, and the queens and kittens on the kibble did a whole lot better than those on the raw looking at them holistically. Both will likely pass, but from seeing it from start to finish I know what I'd rather feed my pet. Not to mention that the cats and kittens stay in our colony for their whole lives typically, so we can usually tell if something crops up later in life. It is a pity that AAFCO trials aren't more strictly regulated and the general public can't get access to what I see, but I don't really think the whole process is completely worthless either.

For the record, I feed my dog Solid Gold Barking at the Moon (grain free) and I'm considering a switch to Orijen. But my cat eats Hills k/d, because she's been living for 4 years with high BUN & creatinine levels and has been doing great with it. I just don't think that you can make a blanket statement about every single dog or cat in the entire world based on your own beliefs.
 
Just an idea I had... Maybe vets use Hills and Royal Canin and Purina because they do extensive studies on their food and guarantee their products??? Also- if they are going to change their formulas even in the slightest, they give fair warning. The vet I work for used to recommend California Natural for cats and Timber Wolf for dogs that have food allergies until they both started to use chicken fat in their products.
 
For the record, I feed my dog Solid Gold Barking at the Moon (grain free) and I'm considering a switch to Orijen. But my cat eats Hills k/d, because she's been living for 4 years with high BUN & creatinine levels and has been doing great with it. I just don't think that you can make a blanket statement about every single dog or cat in the entire world based on your own beliefs.

I agree with you 100% and am in the same exact boat as you. Would I rather feed my dogs a grain free diet? Yes of course. But Id rather also have my dog be alive and a diet like k/d affords his kidneys a lot more time than a diet like Innova. When Im a vet I wont be pushing my clients towards the Science Diet maintenance foods because I think there are better products out there, but you can bet your bottom dollar that Ill have Prescription diets from Science Diet and Royal Canin on my shelves because they plain and simple prolong lives.
 
Just an idea I had... Maybe vets use Hills and Royal Canin and Purina because they do extensive studies on their food and guarantee their products??? Also- if they are going to change their formulas even in the slightest, they give fair warning. The vet I work for used to recommend California Natural for cats and Timber Wolf for dogs that have food allergies until they both started to use chicken fat in their products.

In undergrad and grad school, I did 4 years worth of diet studies on rodent diets that are used in research studies, especially Purina in particular. In paying more attention to "constant nutrition" instead of "constant ingredients," they have huge variation in phytoestrogens which leads to huge variation even year by year in studies on endocrine disruption. They readily admitted to my faculty adviser that they had no idea why. If they can't get the diets used in a research setting right where these sorts of things are absolutely critical, I ain't trusting them so much with what goes in Fluffy's bowl. :rolleyes:

For food allergies, as long as the fat is really 100% fat, the chicken fat (in theory) shouldn't matter for allergies as it is protein, not fat, that the body reacts to as an antigen. Even if there is some protein that accidentally got into the fat (which probably highly likely), unless the dog is allergic to chicken, it shouldn't really matter. That's why dogs that have a fish allergy can often do okay with fish oil supplements, because the oil comes from fat and not the protein (in theory).

Now, that being said, an allergic reaction is not the same thing as an intolerance physiologically (the allergic reaction has the immune system kick in where the intolerance/sensitivity does not), but there's not really a good way yet to tell the difference as serum allergy testing for food is pretty much worthless and the signs of food allergy and food intolerance/sensitivity are essentially the same (pruritus, GI upset, etc). So if the dog is intolerant to chicken, it may as well be the same. But the only way you can tell is by a strict elimination diet.

And since when do Purina et al. give warning when they change formulas? That's news to me. All the companies are pretty much not real great about changing stuff without saying so. Okay, I'd love to get to the rest of the thread, but my immunology exam tomorrow keeps calling and reminding me to go on my study date. :rolleyes::thumbdown:

Oh yeah, forgot to add, Bakaduin, but it may interest you to know that Natura (who makes Evo, California Natural, etc) is supposed to be coming out soon with a guide for vets that will give the clients options for their OTC diets for certain medical conditions instead of getting a veterinary therapeutic diet. If they had a moderate protein diet low in phosphorous, that would probably be helpful while still having superior ingredients. I'll keep you all posted.
 
*sigh* This is why I don't normally comment on food threads.

I don't think that there is a black and white answer. Like I've said several other times on this thread, I don't think there is enough research done on this topic. Published food trials are limited and often funded by the food company they end up promoting (this is also done in human drugs and I don't like it there either).

The original poster did not mention anything about placing their particular animals on said diets. The question was specifically: "What do you think of these two diets?".

Anyway, I am bowing out of this thread with one final note: if your vet recommends a specific diet and you don't particularly like said diet, do some research (this does include other people's opinions), and then TALK TO YOUR VET about it. Just because I don't feed my dog Science Diet products does not mean that you shouldn't.

I apologize if I mistakenly led anyone to believe that I disapprove of his/her feeding style and I absolutely do not think that Science Diet is a bad food or that Hill's is a bad company. I do, however, think that the food is not right for my animals' particular needs.

Good luck with the food wars.
 
Thats obviously your choice but if your dog ages and develops some renal failure have fun feeding your 70% protein and nearly 1.5% phosphorus Orijen.

I don't think anyone was advocating that. Most fans of high protein diets are aware aware the if a dog or cat is in renal failure, you want low phosphorous and a moderate *high-quality* protein source/amount.

I'm not really out to change anyone's feeding religion, but just so all the anti-byproduct folks know, wonderful nutritious vitamin-rich stuff like liver, lungs, hearts, and kidneys (that a dog would actually be eating if it were out killing and/or scavenging its own meals) are "byproducts" according to AAFCO...... On the other hand, "chicken by product meal" can actually be a very complete high-quality source of nutrition, despite the unappetizing name. Kinda ironic, no?

Can "chicken byproduct" be complete on paper? Yes. But is that chicken liver which has been processed beyond belief and dried down into a kibble as digestible as a whole fresh liver? Heck no. I'm not anti-byproduct (as far as the definition of byproduct goes). All home-cookers, raw feeders, prey model feeders who have properly researched their diets, etc advocate feeding organ meat in correct proportions

The problem is when meat byproducts are fed as the BULK of the diet, as it is in many processed kibbles.

B) One of our nutrition profs made a point about the use of corn in pet foods. It's true, a dog "in the wild" would not eat corn. But that doesn't mean that the dog's digestive system cannot extract good nutrition from corn and other grains.

Dog's *can* extract some benefit from grains. But, problem number one is the short "carnivorous' digestive tract , which simply isn't evolutionarily adapted to breaking down large quantities of plant matter (which require a longer time to break down/ferment/whatever needs to be done depending on the chemical composition). So yes, they can extract *some* but not a proper amount. Problem two is.....they aren't being balanced. Corn is terribly balanced in terms of amino acid content and it isn't being made up elsewhere in the food.
 
Did you guys learn what an AAFCO feeding trial for maintenance entails? It's 26 weeks and there only need be 8 dogs that start the trial. Of the 8, only 6 need to pass it! Great statistical power there...
Sure, but to me that still seems like better than just formulating according to chemical analyses that are known to not be all that reliable with regard to bioavailability. Plus, many of those "good" foods are formulated as "all life stages" which means they'd actually have to do the gestation/growth part of the study too.

If I added just 3 more, maybe I could make my own patented Electrophile raw diet.
You should! I personally think the whole raw/whole food thing is great - I don't have the time or energy to feed either myself or my cats that way (my snake does eat live mice and rats though), but I respect people who do. But there are so many remarkably bad raw/home-cooked recipes out there and so much misinformation about commercial pet foods, bioavailability, nutrient quality... So owners with really good intentions but without the necessary educational background end up doing more harm to their pets than good. It's obviously something you feel really strongly about, so why not make a venture of it? Hey, if you branched out to cat diets I'd buy from you - especially if you had a feeding program through my school! :laugh: ;)
 
All home-cookers, raw feeders, prey model feeders who have properly researched their diets, etc advocate feeding organ meat in correct proportions
Right. And... It wasn't those people who were the intended audience of my comment. There *are* people who think that anything called "byproduct" is inherently evil, and I was just pointing out that the legal definition of byproduct includes a lot of stuff that those same people would acknowledge is good nutrition. Just an unfortunate mismatch between colloquial use and legal definition.

Dog's *can* extract some benefit from grains. But, problem number one is the short "carnivorous' digestive tract , which simply isn't evolutionarily adapted to breaking down large quantities of plant matter
I also feel that I've failed to make a simple point here... What goes in and what percentage of it comes back out don't really matter. What matters to the animal is whatever stays in the animal. Regardless of what the guaranteed analysis says, or how super-premium the ingredients are, if the diet fails a feeding trial then it's not formulated correctly. I hope we can all agree on that. I am *not* saying the reverse in unequivocally true, because of all the limitations of the feeding trial design. Even so, if the animals don't develop any amino acid deficiencies in 6 months, then probably the company did an adequate job of balancing out the amino acid profile.

I suppose more than anything my point was: It's possible to make crappy food even out of the best ingredients, if you do a bad job in formulation and testing. ;)
 
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