JAG Officer --> MD Without Losing Rank?

[26miles385yards]

I'm finishing law school this year and planning to enter the JAG Corps in the fall of 2010. I'm not sure I'm cut out with being a lawyer for the rest of my life and I'm considering taking the pre-med requirements once I get out of law school for an eventual movement into medicine 4-5 years from now.

Out of curiosity, at the end of my initial 4 year commitment to the JAG Corps I will be an O-3 (actually at the end of 1 year in the JAG Corps you are an O-3), so is it possible to enter one of the military programs for med school and not lose rank/seniority? I think there is a program like this for officers who want to go to law school, but I wasn't sure if there is one for those who want to go to medical school and specifically for people who are already staff instead of line officers?

I searched and someone mentioned that a program like this was in the works 18 months ago but I wasn't sure what the current status is.

Thanks all.

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[SirGecko]

When you go to medical school you become an ensign again. They just recently passed something for USUHS though that allows people that used to be higher ranking to keep their pay at their previous rank and attend medical school. (pretty good deal considering that you used to have to take a pay cut to ensign pay!) As for when you graduate: everyone is promoted to O-3 right away so you would be right back to your old rank. (I'm not sure what considerations prior service people get when it comes to getting a higher rank quicker out of medical school so someone else may want to address this)

 

[26miles385yards]

Do you accrue years toward retirement while in Medical School? I know that in the law program you do but I wasn't sure about in this context.

Also: are you considered active duty while in med school or only during the summer 45-day period?

 

[TheGoose]

Do you accrue years toward retirement while in Medical School? I know that in the law program you do but I wasn't sure about in this context.

With HPSP: no.
With USUHS: you get 4 years accrued after you reach your 20. So, when you hit 20, you jump to 24.

Also: are you considered active duty while in med school or only during the summer 45-day period?

With HPSP: you are reserve and only active during the 45 day ADTs
With USUHS: you are active duty every day

 

[26miles385yards]

Very interesting re: USUHS; one of the ways that I can afford to do the JAG Corps is being able to participate in the new public service federal loan repayment plan (pay 15% of discretionary income for 10 years of service, all other loans forgiven). If I'm still active duty at the time then this counts and I would continue to accrue service for loan forgiveness purposes. That's a very interesting scenario, thanks for the info.

Does anyone have any info about switching from JAG Corps to USUHS? I wonder if it's possible.

 

[NavyFP]

There are a number of ways prior service counts in regards to med school programs.

If you were enlisted, you keep the time for pay and retirement. If you have 4 years and 1 day of active enlisted time, you will be paid as an O-1E over whatever while serving on active duty. When you leave medical school, you will be given 4 years of entry grade credit for your medical degree which will make you an O-3 or O-3E (over years spent enlisted). You are given no additional time towards O-4, so it will be six years to pin on the gold oak leaf.

If you were commissioned, you keep the time and pay for retirement. Your active duty base pay will be at the same level as it was at its highest. For USU students, it will be all the time. For HPSP students, it will be only during your 45 days of active duty. BAH will be at the ENS level (w/ or w/o dependants). BAS is the same for all officers. When you leave medical school you are given 4 years of entry grade credit for the medical degree and half credit for all prior commissioned service. This goes down to the day. A DD214 is required to calculate your additional credit. For example, if you have 5 years 6 months and 12 days of commissioned service, you will get 2 years 9 months and 6 days of additional credit. This means you will likely put on O-4 three years after graduation. (plus or minus a couple of months.) If you have other degrees that are directly applicable to the job of a GMO, you may get up to 2 additional years for a Masters, and up to 3 additional years for a Doctoral degree. These degrees may not have been earned on the military's dime or while commissioned to receive credit.


So for our future lawyer to doctor. You will get half credit for your commissioned service, save pay during med school, but no additional credit towards promotion for your law degree.

 

[DrMetal]

A DD214 is required to calculate your additional credit. For example, if you have 5 years 6 months and 12 days of commissioned service, you will get 2 years 9 months and 6 days of additional credit. This means you will likely put on O-4 three years after graduation. (plus or minus a couple of months.)

I got a picky question here:
What if you have 5.5 years of active duty service (a DD214 to show for it) and 0.5 years of ADT (active duty for training, for which you do not get a DD214 for, but it does show up on your point capture as actual active duty)? Would this count as 6/2 = 3 years credit, or they'd only give you 5.5/2 = 2.75 years credit ?

If you have other degrees that are directly applicable to the job of a GMO, you may get up to 2 additional years for a Masters, and up to 3 additional years for a Doctoral degree.

Whoa whoa wait a second, I'd never heard of this. So say you have a MS/PhD in chemistry (where you did medically-related research) from a previous, non-military program, at a civilian institution. You get credit for this towards promotion? Can you point us to the guidance for this?

 

[NavyFP]

I got a picky question here:
What if you have 5.5 years of active duty service (a DD214 to show for it) and 0.5 years of ADT (active duty for training, for which you do not get a DD214 for, but it does show up on your point capture as actual active duty)? Would this count as 6/2 = 3 years credit, or they'd only give you 5.5/2 = 2.75 years credit ?



Whoa whoa wait a second, I'd never heard of this. So say you have a MS/PhD in chemistry (where you did medically-related research) from a previous, non-military program, at a civilian institution. You get credit for this towards promotion? Can you point us to the guidance for this?

If the ADT time you are speaking of is during HPSP, you get no credit for that. If you have other comissioned time as a reservist (active or IRR), you can request a statement from Reserve Command and that time can be added to your entry grade credit.


Guidance for all EGC can be found in OPNAVINST 1120.4. You could try to make a case for the Chemistry, but I would likely say no.

 

[26miles385yards]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply NavyFP, that clears up a lot of issues.

I guess my only outstanding question at this point is whether there's a problem changing from being a JAG officer to a USUHS doc in training. I don't necessarily see why it would matter but it definitely seems like a nontraditional route.

 

[TheGoose]

i suppose you would need explicit permission from the JAG command to transfer before your JAG commitment was filled. The reason it would matter is because if JAG paid for your legal education then they might want to get their moneys worth. If they were ok with you leaving early then you'd still have to go through the entire USUHS application process just like every other student in order to get in (and add on whatever commitment you owed to JAG onto the back end of the USUHS commitment).

EDIT: i notice you haven't commited to JAG yet. What's the problem? If you don't want to be a lawyer, then why not do a public interest job for a year to test the waters. If you like law, stay with law. If you don't, then apply to med school with no issues

 

[ArkansasRanger]

I'm finishing law school this year and planning to enter the JAG Corps in the fall of 2010. I'm not sure I'm cut out with being a lawyer for the rest of my life and I'm considering taking the pre-med requirements once I get out of law school for an eventual movement into medicine 4-5 years from now.

Out of curiosity, at the end of my initial 4 year commitment to the JAG Corps I will be an O-3 (actually at the end of 1 year in the JAG Corps you are an O-3), so is it possible to enter one of the military programs for med school and not lose rank/seniority? I think there is a program like this for officers who want to go to law school, but I wasn't sure if there is one for those who want to go to medical school and specifically for people who are already staff instead of line officers?

I searched and someone mentioned that a program like this was in the works 18 months ago but I wasn't sure what the current status is.

Thanks all.

On another note, how difficult was it for you to get accepted into the JAG Corps? Did you do a direct entry program? I hear the acceptance rate is very low for that. Congratulations on getting that.

 

[26miles385yards]

No, I haven't committed to the JAG yet. At this point all I know is that I'd like to do a stint in the military and that I don't want to work at a law firm. It's quite possible that I'll like being a JAG a lot more than I've liked my experiences working at a firm and that I'll stick with it. Additionally my wife is finishing up an graduate program in the next few years (which she put on hold while I was in law school) so after my 4 year commitment to the JAG is up I'll be in a much better position to decide what I'd really like to do for the rest of my life (be it med school, continue being a JAG, being a government lawyer or something else completely).

I like the idea of having a steady O-3 income while I'm in med school if I decide to go that route and I'll already have several years in for retirement purposes. Obviously if I did USUHS I would end up being career because I'd be so close anyway given my prior JAG commitments. It's a lot to consider but it helps me to know that at least I have some good options.

 

[26miles385yards]

On another note, how difficult was it for you to get accepted into the JAG Corps? Did you do a direct entry program? I hear the acceptance rate is very low for that. Congratulations on getting that.

Yes, I'm doing direct entry from law school. I've got good academic credentials and decent prior work experiences displaying leadership. The main question I got at the interview was why the JAG when you can get a Wall St. job? I had good answers for that so I think it really helped. I'll never be young again and have the opportunity to serve in the military, but I can always work at a firm later.