Jehova's Witness

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  1. Attending Physician
15 y/o for scoliosis surgery with a cobb angle of 70. Family is Jehovah's witness and do not want any blood products given except for hetastarch and albumin. They agree to cell saver. Starting HCT is 45. 6 hours into the case you get an abg and her HCT is now 17. One of the nurses notices blood on the floor near the cell saver and discovers that most of it has escaped through a crack in the system. She is now developing ST elevation, PVC's and her B.P. is 50/20.

What do you do?

Can you give blood?

Besides having a long talk with family members, what other strategies can be used in these types of cases?
 
Give blood. It's a minor patient. In some states (Maryland) parents can't refuse blood for a minor.

Other strategies: acute isovolemic hemodilution and Amicar.
 
Do you have to get someone else involved before YOU give blood? I don't know the answer to this.

Can you be succesfully taken to court if you do give blood without further intraoperative consultation?

Isovolemic hemodilution, permisve hypotension and amicar are all the things I could think of.
 
Can't get a court order... can you? How long does that take if it's an option?
 
Do you have to get someone else involved before YOU give blood? I don't know the answer to this.

Can you be succesfully taken to court if you do give blood without further intraoperative consultation?

Isovolemic hemodilution, permisve hypotension and amicar are all the things I could think of.

Interested in hearing what others have to say about this.

I'd rather fight it in court knowing I didn't let a child bleed to death but that's just me. Maryland makes it easy by having the protection already in place but this is highly state-dependent. I would tell the parents that I would do everything possible to avoid transfusion but that if I had to transfuse I would. You don't really have time for a court order and I wouldn't feel compelled to wait for another anesthesiologist to transfuse (plus there's the surgeon that should be on your side).

Your scenario is strange because a hemoglobin of 17% should be fairly well tolerated in a teenager. Could the patient just be behind on fluids vs hemoglobin?
 
Can't get a court order... can you? How long does that take if it's an option?

In the states where I have worked you don't need a court order to give blood products for life saving treatments to minors against parental wishes. I would do all I could to avoid blood, but the family would know that I would give blood if the kid would die without it. It sounds like your almost at that point now. In the above situation I would call for the 2 units of PRBCs that I had waiting just in case in the blood bank and thaw 2 FFP, maybe more PRBCs and get platelets as well.
I would use amicar in this patient, even if he was an idiopathic scoliosis and place a central line to follow CVP. I would also have kept his pressures at a MAP of 55, as long as his signals tolerated that pressure. You can't really do isovolemic hemodilution as the family probably wouldn't have greenlighted taking off a unit of blood to give back later. I probably would have given him 500 of albumin early to hemodilute anyway. (hypervolemic hemodilution?)
Before giving the blood, as I was giving pressors and a fluid bolus, I'd be looking for other causes of his decompensation, like air embolism or acute hypovolemia. His ischemia may be simply due to hypotension and not anemia. I would expect him to recover with volume and pressors. If the ischemia resolved, no blood products.(yet)
 
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Besides having a long talk with family members, what other strategies can be used in these types of cases?

Tell the family you aren't comfortable doing the case because you aren't going to sit there and do nothing as a 15 year needlessly bleeds to death in the name of some whacky religious stuff. I can understand if you are guaranteed 73 virgins in Heaven, but this would be pointless.
 
Autologus blood is NOT an option in Jehova's witness patients although I've heard of some creative ways to keep blood in contact with the patients circulatory system. The above case is just something I made up to see what others would do if they ever found themselves in a situation where they felt compelled to give blood to a minor who is JW. I thought maybe another person in the hospital setting would need to be involved in order to cover your back.

This is not a minor... but the Doc did get consent from his mother...

Scary :scared:

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-90249065/jehovah-witness-pt-survives.html
 
The above case ruled in favor of the patient, but because his HCT wasn't life threatening... but if it had been.... then would the case fall in favor of the surgeon? What a headache.
 
The above case ruled in favor of the patient, but because his HCT wasn't life threatening... but if it had been.... then would the case fall in favor of the surgeon? What a headache.

As I was just saying.....
 
As I was just saying.....

I like your stance on the subject...

What if you were in an academic center where these cases are regularly done... would you refuse and let your partner do it? 😉

I've had 2 JW cases since entering PP. One elective shoulder and an emergency ex-lap for free air. Both didn't require blood, but i did drop one off in the ICU with a HCT of 26.
 
15 y/o for scoliosis surgery with a cobb angle of 70. Family is Jehovah's witness and do not want any blood products given except for hetastarch and albumin. They agree to cell saver. Starting HCT is 45. 6 hours into the case you get an abg and her HCT is now 17. One of the nurses notices blood on the floor near the cell saver and discovers that most of it has escaped through a crack in the system. She is now developing ST elevation, PVC's and her B.P. is 50/20.

What do you do?

Can you give blood?

Besides having a long talk with family members, what other strategies can be used in these types of cases?

I would give blood. She's a minor. The preop feelgood discussion about cellsaver with the parents makes no difference. I would not withhold lifesaving treatment because of her parents' or even her own religious beliefs, because she's a minor. A child doesn't get to choose to die, and her parents don't get to choose to let her die.

I don't think I've ever taken care of a JW minor patient, but before doing so my preop consent discussion will make explicitly clear that if push came to shove, and their "preferred" resuscitation substances were inadequate, that I would transfuse her. Unless they bring a court order signed by a judge on the day of surgery, this is not debatable or negotiable. If they don't agree to this, I will not do the case.


This issue was one of my oral board questions, by the way ... a lot of time during my second stem was spent on ethics.
 
This is not a minor... but the Doc did get consent from his mother...

Scary :scared:

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-90249065/jehovah-witness-pt-survives.html

ISSUE: In most cases, when a patient survives a life or death situation due to the intervention of a physician, he or she is eternally grateful. However, in this unusual South Carolina case, the patient, a Jehovah's Witness, notified a physician who was to perform surgery on him that he did not want blood given under any circumstances. Notwithstanding the restriction, the physician agreed to perform the procedure without transfusing the patient. After the patient lost approximately 30 percent of his blood volume and death by heart attack was almost imminent, the physician, after obtaining the patient's mother's consent, gave blood transfusions which saved the patient's life. A fully recovered patient sued the surgeon.

The documents indicate that he refused to have blood or blood products given to him, and that he fully understood the attendant risks.

Not scary.

A competent adult refused transfusion before surgery, in writing, multiple times, in excruciating detail. **** happened, as it does to all of us eventually, and the physician transfused him against his wishes. It was wrong to ask the adult patient's mother to overrule his advance directive.

Competent adults can choose to die by refusing any particular medical treatment.

I think the patient is a *****, but the physician did assault him. (ETA - Maybe the right term is battery? IANAL.)


The moral of the story, as I see it, is that one shouldn't agree to take care of a patient with such demands in the first place if you're going to ignore them or do some kind of end run around them if the SHTF.
 
If he was an adult or an emancipated minor, I'd do all I could, but I'd let him die. The surgeon could potentially stop and let him try to recover in the ICU.
If that's how he wants to go, fine by me.
I've had many JW pts, but none needed blood. They're all different in what they are ok with as well. You can get very detailed, and have a plan. I had one family that was fine with everything except PRBCs. Sure, ok!
 
I would give blood. She's a minor. The preop feelgood discussion about cellsaver with the parents makes no difference. I would not withhold lifesaving treatment because of her parents' or even her own religious beliefs, because she's a minor. A child doesn't get to choose to die, and her parents don't get to choose to let her die.

I don't think I've ever taken care of a JW minor patient, but before doing so my preop consent discussion will make explicitly clear that if push came to shove, and their "preferred" resuscitation substances were inadequate, that I would transfuse her. Unless they bring a court order signed by a judge on the day of surgery, this is not debatable or negotiable. If they don't agree to this, I will not do the case.


This issue was one of my oral board questions, by the way ... a lot of time during my second stem was spent on ethics.

Nicely put pgg.
 
I am not sure why anyone would agree to do an elective scoliosis case on a child with parents who refuse blood transfusion!
What point are we trying to prove?
If they don't want a transfusion on a case that in your best clinical judgement is likely to require a transfusion then why on earth would you agree to be part of it?
On the other hand if you agreed and you are faced with the above mentioned situation then I think your course of action should be clear: you agreed to allow the child to die if they bleed massively so you should not change your plan now.
 
I would refuse to do an elective minor JW with potential blood loss: too much headache.
Now in case of an emergency i would transfuse without a doubt.
As for adults i have no problem letting them bleed to death if they so wish.
 
I like pgg's approach. I'd require that the parents and I are in agreement with the plan and the potential need for transfusion, and I'd have the plan written and signed by the parents in the chart. Short of that, I'd refuse to do this elective case.
 
I would refuse to do an elective minor JW with potential blood loss: too much headache.
Now in case of an emergency i would transfuse without a doubt.
As for adults i have no problem letting them bleed to death if they so wish.

Most elective, or semi elective cases go just fine. You may find, as I have, that they do well with a low HCT (say 20) where I would probably have transfused other kids when their HCT was that low.
 
Most elective, or semi elective cases go just fine. You may find, as I have, that they do well with a low HCT (say 20) where I would probably have transfused other kids when their HCT was that low.

Before you do any case on a Jehova witness you should ask yourself and the patient (or the patient's guardian) this question:
Are we OK with letting the patient die if all my transfusion alternatives are not effective?
If the answer is a clear yes then proceed with surgery.
 
Before you do any case on a Jehova witness you should ask yourself and the patient (or the patient's guardian) this question:
Are we OK with letting the patient die if all my transfusion alternative are not effective?
If the answer is a clear yes then proceed with surgery.

Plank. So you would say that it is OK to let a minor die 2/2 anemia if all were on board? Who is WE? Patient, Surgeon, Anesthesiologist as well as STATE? Or can this decision be made w/o state/court/other input?

Proman states that Maryland would not let this happen. How about the rest of the 49 states?

Just curious as my experience is limited.
 
I do these cases. We would not let a child die. Not me, not the surgeon, not the administration. They choose to have surgery here because the surgeons are more likely to complete the surgery without needing to transfuse. That's the advantage of a large children's hospital. They've done it all before. Maybe out in pudunk they would allow the shady surgeon to assassinate the kid, I don't know and I'm not going to find out.
 
Plank. So you would say that it is OK to let a minor die 2/2 anemia if all were on board? Who is WE? Patient, Surgeon, Anesthesiologist as well as STATE? Or can this decision be made w/o state/court/other input?

Proman states that Maryland would not let this happen. How about the rest of the 49 states?

Just curious as my experience is limited.

No, I don't think it's OK to let a minor die secondary to anemia and to his parents religion, this is why I would not do the case unless they accept a transfusion if it is necessary.
I am a physician not a lawyer, and I have no interest in getting involved in some legal and ethical disaster because of someone's religious beliefs and fairy tales.
If this was an emergency surgery though I would not hesitate to transfuse the patient to save his life regardless of what the parents might think.
 
I do these cases. We would not let a child die. Not me, not the surgeon, not the administration. They choose to have surgery here because the surgeons are more likely to complete the surgery without needing to transfuse. That's the advantage of a large children's hospital. They've done it all before. Maybe out in pudunk they would allow the shady surgeon to assassinate the kid, I don't know and I'm not going to find out.

So, you are saying that in your "large children hospital" you would tell the parents that you would not transfuse the child, but in the unlikely event that a life threatening hemorrhage happens (although unlikely in the hands of your experienced surgeons) you are still going to transfuse ignoring what you told the parents?
Is that really your plan of action?
 
For a minor, you can and should give blood products if deemed necessary to sustain life, regardless of religion or parental consent. Adults can choose for themselves not to receive these products, and they can choose for each other (serving as proxy) but they cannot legally decline life-saving treatment for a minor.

Classic boards question: There's a car accident with husband, wife, and minor child. The father and child are incapacitated and need blood products to sustain life. The mother/wife (health care proxy) states no blood products can be given to either due to religious beliefs. What do you do?

A- Do your best w/o blood products for either.
B- Give blood products to both since they need them and they can't speak for themselves.
C- Give blood products to the husband only.
D- Give blood products to the (minor) child only.
E- Become a Jehova's Witness, since it sounds pretty cool.

Answer is blood products for the minor only, and do your best w/o them for the husband. Wife can decline treatment for the husband based on his religious beliefs but cannot (legally) do so for a minor.
 
No, I don't think it's OK to let a minor die secondary to anemia and to his parents religion, this is why I would not do the case unless they accept a transfusion if it is necessary.
I am a physician not a lawyer, and I have no interest in getting involved in some legal and ethical disaster because of someone's religious beliefs and fairy tales.
If this was an emergency surgery though I would not hesitate to transfuse the patient to save his life regardless of what the parents might think.

This is the take home message that we all agree on. None of us would let that happen. Can a lawyer come after you if it was an emergency or elective case and you did transfuse? Despite objection from the parents? Would it make it to court? Is it state dependent? If it's not then we have our answer.



It's all mental masturbation, but maybe someone out there will come across this scenerio some day.
 
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For a minor, you can and should give blood products if deemed necessary to sustain life, regardless of religion or parental consent. Adults can choose for themselves not to receive these products, and they can choose for each other (serving as proxy) but they cannot legally decline life-saving treatment for a minor.

Classic boards question: There's a car accident with husband, wife, and minor child. The father and child are incapacitated and need blood products to sustain life. The mother/wife (health care proxy) states no blood products can be given to either due to religious beliefs. What do you do?

A- Do your best w/o blood products for either.
B- Give blood products to both since they need them and they can't speak for themselves.
C- Give blood products to the husband only.
D- Give blood products to the (minor) child only.
E- Become a Jehova's Witness, since it sounds pretty cool.

Answer is blood products for the minor only, and do your best w/o them for the husband. Wife can decline treatment for the husband based on his religious beliefs but cannot (legally) do so for a minor.

True, but in the scenario of elective surgery, you should disclose to the parents that in the event of a life threatening hemorrhage you are going to override their wishes and transfuse blood products because they might not consent to you treating their child knowing that you might give him blood and that's their right.
 
Thx for the responses BTW.
 
This is the take home message that we all agree on. None of us would let that happen. Can a lawyer come after you if it was an emergency or elective case and you did transfuse? Despite objection from the parents? Would it make it to court? Is it state dependent? If it's not then we have our answer.



It's all mental masturbation, but maybe someone out there will come across this scenerio some day.

If this was an emergency and you have no time to get a court order then you should err on the side of saving lives because that is your job.
If you have time to obtain a court order then you should do it though.
 
That is what I'd do, emergency or not... but am I protected by the law?
 
So, you are saying that in your "large children hospital" you would tell the parents that you would not transfuse the child, but in the unlikely event that a life threatening hemorrhage happens (although unlikely in the hands of your experienced surgeons) you are still going to transfuse ignoring what you told the parents?
Is that really your plan of action?

No, I tell them that we will do everything that we possibly can to avoid giving blood products, including accepting labs, etc that we normally would not, but we will not let them die on the table from exsanguination. They're in the same boat in the PICU as well. They accept that. I've never had one refuse surgery on the DOS, but the surgeon tells them the same thing when they meet pre op. And yes, I do work at a "large Children's hospital". I've done some big elective cases here and elsewhere with JW pts and never had to transfuse. But when we're clearly circling the drain, like the above case, with acidosis, etc, I wouldn't hesitate. If the kid got shunned, it would probably be a blessing.
There may be parents who elect to not have their child's tumor resected, etc. because the surgeon tells them that we would give products to save their kids lives, but I wouldn't see them. Perhaps there are hospitals that would let the kids die somewhere out there? I don't know. Adults are another story. They willingly choose their fate.
 
The closest I came was a 7 year old tonsillar bleed 10 days post op. Starting Hgb was around 9. Because it had been so well explained to mom for the T&A, all she said was to try our best to not transfuse. It was controlled quickly and without transfusion.

There are some anesthesiologists who do not agree with letting a competent adult refuse life saving therapy. They excuse themselves from the case. I personally have no problem with transfusing minors and not transfusing adults.
 
What if the minor shared the desire of the parents and was deemed competent to make an informed decision before the surgery? If the minor, without influence of the parents, doesn't want blood, do you still transfuse in this (life threatening) scenario?
 
What if the minor shared the desire of the parents and was deemed competent to make an informed decision before the surgery? If the minor, without influence of the parents, doesn't want blood, do you still transfuse in this (life threatening) scenario?

Said minor would have to be "deemed competent" by a greater legal authority than I. The only way I'd let a minor choose to die is if I that minor had some court's backing.
 
Not scary.

A competent adult refused transfusion before surgery, in writing, multiple times, in excruciating detail. **** happened, as it does to all of us eventually, and the physician transfused him against his wishes. It was wrong to ask the adult patient's mother to overrule his advance directive.

Competent adults can choose to die by refusing any particular medical treatment.

I think the patient is a *****, but the physician did assault him. (ETA - Maybe the right term is battery? IANAL.)


The moral of the story, as I see it, is that one shouldn't agree to take care of a patient with such demands in the first place if you're going to ignore them or do some kind of end run around them if the SHTF.

What if the minor shared the desire of the parents and was deemed competent to make an informed decision before the surgery? If the minor, without influence of the parents, doesn't want blood, do you still transfuse in this (life threatening) scenario?

The key word is MINOR. They are incapable of making that decision on their own unless they are emancipated. Minors can't sign contracts, can't vote, can't sign op permits etc., because they are deemed by law to be incapable of making an informed decision.
 
Lots of good points here.

Clearly these discussion should be done pre-operatively, and should be very frank about the risks involved.

Re the autotransfusion question - there is a TON of variation among Jehovah's Witnesses about what they will or will not accept. Some are perfectly fine with autotransfusion, especially the "continuous circuit" concept, which is totally bogus but makes them feel better about waffling on their beliefs.

Also - this is an excellent time to have a discussion with the patient IN PRIVATE, with absolutely NO family member or JW "bloodless surgery" counselor in attendance. MANY of these patients are pressured into not accepting blood products, when they would actually accept them if their family didn't know. Use HIPPA to your advantage. Have the discussion privately, get a permit signed and witnessed, and make sure everyone involved understands that there be no discussion of blood administration in front of the family.

In the years before blood permits (hell, even before op permits) I worked with a very highly respected anesthesiologist in Atlanta who would ask JW patients before they went to sleep, "If you're going to die without it, can I give you blood and not tell you later?" Almost without exception, the patients would smile and say "YES - thank you very much for asking".
 
What if the minor shared the desire of the parents and was deemed competent to make an informed decision before the surgery? If the minor, without influence of the parents, doesn't want blood, do you still transfuse in this (life threatening) scenario?

The answer to your question is a resounding YES.

Why? There is no such thing as a "minor who is deemed competent." There are certain areas where minors can make their own medical decisions (e.g., if they are emancipated or pregnant) but that doesn't apply here.

Therefore the parents or guardians make the decision for this minor, period. It doesn't matter what the minor thinks. You do what the parents want.

UNLESS they are choosing to withhold life-saving treatments that are "in the best interest" of the child. Then, the physician acting in patient's "best interest" gets to make that call. This Jehovah's Witness situation is the most common example scenario I've heard of. I don't know what happens if, for example, parents want their otherwise healthy asthmatic kid to NOT get intubated for an acute asthma exacerbation. Presumably the kid would get tubed, right?

In this scenario, I think most doctors taking care of this patient would make an honest effort to avoid transfusion and respect the patient/parent's beliefs about going to hell or whatever the jibber jabber is about them "eating blood."

But in a situation like this it looks like this patient needs some RBCs and quick. If the doc wants to transfuse, the kid gets a transfusion and the parents have no ground to stand on legally or ethically.

One interesting tidbit regarding variability in acceptance of blood products. As said earlier, there is a wide, wide range of what's OK to these patients. Cellsaver, autologous, ANH, plasma, cryo, PLT, albumin, etc. But if they say NO to albumin, then they are a no-go for EPO too, since even though EPO is recombinant it is solubilized in human albumin.
 
Also - this is an excellent time to have a discussion with the patient IN PRIVATE, with absolutely NO family member or JW "bloodless surgery" counselor in attendance. MANY of these patients are pressured into not accepting blood products, when they would actually accept them if their family didn't know. Use HIPPA to your advantage. Have the discussion privately, get a permit signed and witnessed, and make sure everyone involved understands that there be no discussion of blood administration in front of the family.

Great strategy. That dude in the suit hanging out with the patient and family creeps me out anyway.
 
So how about a minor pregnant JW with placenta accreta who refuses blood? 😆

As soon as she delivers, she is not pregnant anymore and is once again a minor. PRBC'S in line and open the stopcock as soon as the baby is out. :meanie:

On the original question, I agree completely with Plank. I do not go to the OR with minor JW's without an agreement to transfuse. I will be happy to trade rooms with whichever of my partners is dumb enough to give it a go, although I would try to talk him/her out of it.


- pod
 
As soon as she delivers, she is not pregnant anymore and is once again a minor. PRBC'S in line and open the stopcock as soon as the baby is out. :meanie:

On the original question, I agree completely with Plank. I do not go to the OR with minor JW's without an agreement to transfuse. I will be happy to trade rooms with whichever of my partners is dumb enough to give it a go, although I would try to talk him/her out of it.


- pod

Don't be so sure. In my state a minor remains emancipated if she has ever been pregnant.
 
Don't be so sure. In my state a minor remains emancipated if she has ever been pregnant.

Than the kid would grow up without a mother. Stupid, but whatever. See you in "heaven". I'd be sure to tell the guy in the suit that his ridiculous religion claimed another martyr. He should be proud. I wonder if the church will pony up the $ to raise the kid now? Yeah, thought not.
 
Surgery for correction of scoliosis is an entirely elective case. As such, the patient should not be coming in for surgery until state laws regarding transfusion for minors are clarified, hospital legal and ethics consults completed if any more clarification is needed, surgeon is on board, anesthesiologist is on board, and the consent signed by the parents states explicitly what will happen if the minor requires a life-saving transfusion.

Given the elective nature of this procedure, this patient should not have seen the inside of an OR until all of the above were discussed and documented.
 
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Don't be so sure. In my state a minor remains emancipated if she has ever been pregnant.

I thought the :meanie: would give it away as the joke it was meant to be, but yes it is important to understand the laws regarding what does and does not constitute a minor in your jurisdiction. I had this topic on my orals.

- pod
 
Do you have to get someone else involved before YOU give blood? I don't know the answer to this.

Can you be succesfully taken to court if you do give blood without further intraoperative consultation?

In my state, the last time I had to inquire about this, the hospital legal consult said that it takes about an hour to get a court order (yes, even in the middle of the night), and that in this state the courts have previously ruled against the parents refusing transfusion. Therefore, if you do not have time to obtain a court order, the legal precedent appears to be that in my state the courts would likely rule again in favor of the physician ordering transfusion.

However, there are 49 other states and if you don't know the answer, a legal consult would be prudent prior to obtaining anesthesia consent and prior to starting surgery.
 
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