Jesuit Med Schools

[btowngirl]

What is up with Jesuit schools? What are the differences in education between non-religious schools? Is it much harder to get in if you aren't Jesuit?

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[TIMMY]

There are no differences as far as I know between Jesuit Institutions and non Jesuits in terms of education. While up at Creighton for interviews someone asked Dean Nipper if creighton gave preference to catholics. He did not hesistate to say not at all. The campus itself is preety liberal in terms of religion, I worked there for a couple of summers. Even though you'll find a lot of things that agree with jesuit philosophy...like crucifixes it is the same education as other med schools.
Anyone familiar with Loyola's campus?

 

[brats800]

i was told that you'd probably see 'father so-and-so' or 'sister whoever' on campus or at the hospital with loyola, whereas you might not see the same religious aspect at non-jesuit schools. in addition, schools like loyola won't have you doing abortions or medicine that would be against your religious views. i see that as a great thing...

 

[ZappBrannigan]

Also, birth control cannot be prescribed nor is it covered by student health insurance. I think they have exceptions if it's medically necessary (painful periods, etc.).

 

[secretmiss]

Jesuits are an order of Roman Catholic priests...only priests are Jesuits. Still, you could have gone to a Jesuit college or high school. I am sure they look favorably on it although not too much.

 

[LaurieB]

I think it depends on the school, but Loyola did not appear to give any preference to Catholics. I'm not Catholic and pretty much gave myself away as a non-Catholic in my interview. My Catholic interviewer did not seem to be concerned in the least.

Loyola does incorporate spirituality a good deal in their "humanistic" approach to medicine and through their strong campus ministry office, http://www.meddean.luc.edu/depts/ministry/index.htm . That said, they make a point of making their spirituality accessible to everyone and inclusive. On my interview day, they had a speaker scheduled for the afternoon to talk about Islam and medicine. They also have a Hilel (Jewish) student group. Overall, I felt that the focus on spirituality was a positive aspect of the program.

The only other thing to note about Jesuit schools is that they do not teach you how to perform an abortion and from what I've heard, they don't do any research with Stem Cells. Someone please correct me if they know more details on this that I.

Laurie

 

[vandypatty]

In looking at Loyola, what Laurie said seemed pretty accurate. While no preference seemed to be given to Catholics, the whole "we treat the human spirit" approach seems to correlate pretty strongly with the school's approach to Jesuit ideals, etc. Regardless, it seemed like a very strong institution despite the religous connotations.

 

[Alexander99]

What is up with Jesuit schools? What are the differences in education between non-religious schools? Is it much harder to get in if you aren't Jesuit?

I think the only difference is that you have an edge if you happen to be Jesuit. Also, your class will have way more Jesuit students (obviously.) That's about it.

 

[Ghost]

I think the only difference is that you have an edge if you happen to be Jesuit. Also, your class will have way more Jesuit students (obviously.) That's about it.

yes, i hear all of the classes are full of priests who are studying medicine.

 

[med_stud_07]

I attended a jesuit undergrad and wanted to get out of the Jesuit system to broaden my educational experience. Jesuits are world renowned for their exceptional education though.

 

[Jet915]

Being non-religious and going to a jesuit school, I really dont see that much of a difference from my public undergrad school. We do have a chaplain who is there for advice whenever we need it and there is a cross in every room. Other than that, there really isnt much difference. Of course, in the case of Creighton atleast, they tend to accept more students from "religious" schools so it might be a slight advantage if you are from a "religious" undergrad. As for the hospital, the differences is no birth control or abortions are performed.

 

[Adapt]

To clarify as someone said, Jesuits are an order of Catholic priests. Thus, no one can be jesuit unless they belong to this order. The question should be do these 4 medical schools, Loyola, Creighton, SLU, and Georgetown give preference to Catholics.

I am a practicing Catholic and stressed that in my secondary app to all schools. The result was no interview at Loyola or SLU. I was offered an interview at Creighton but turned it down, and I was interviewed and rejected by Georgetown.

Given these results, I don't think there is a strong preference for Catholics although it could only help if you are and if you talk about it in your apps.

 

[Odaroloc]

Basically, all it means is that it can't hurt you if you are vocal about your faith...

 

[Phil Anthropist]

The only other thing to note about Jesuit schools is that they do not teach you how to perform an abortion and from what I've heard, they don't do any research with Stem Cells. Someone please correct me if they know more details on this that I.

Laurie

Congrats on Stritch Laurie--You're pretty much right, except for Georgetown:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4111827/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61643-2004Jan29.html

The Catholic Church and many Catholic and Jesuit institutions aren't too happy with Georgetown's decision. I don't think any of the other Catholic, Jesuit universities (Creighton, SLU, Loyola-Stritch) teach abortions. I graduated from a Catholic, Jesuit institution and I know many of the applicants accepted were not Catholic. I don't think you have any major advantage as a Roman Catholic. I don't think these schools place a HUGE emphasis on the fact that they're Jesuit institutions, but do keep in mind that many of their policies may be influenced by Jesuit/Catholic principles and this may also attract a lot of Catholics and Jesuit university graduates.

As an above poster mentioned, Jesuit is a descriptive term given to members of the Society of Jesus, a Roman Catholic order of priests. I graduated from a Jesuit institution, but that doesn't make me a Jesuit (thank goodness). Jesuits are very oriented toward social justice issues and developing the whole person (the latter kinda sounds like the osteopathic philosophy doesn't it?). An other poster mentioned that Jesuits are known for excellent education. The poster is probably referring to the curriculum. In my school, we were required to take 3 theology classes, 3 philosophy classes, 1 cultural diversity class, 2 literature classes, 2 history classes, several social science classes, some foreign language classes, some math classes, etc. A lot of the students complained about the core curriculum for Arts and Sciences at times (including me), but it really is quite an experience and it's consistent with the development of the whole person philosophy (it also helped some of my friends get into Phi Beta Kappa)...And obviously you can't take that many non-science electives in med school (if at all). Anyway, that's my $ .02

 

[AlternateSome1]

C'mon guys, hundreds of priests apply to medical school every year. We even have a Jesuit Premed Club at my school to give their large numbers support. Jesus representin' in da house.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

C'mon guys, hundreds of priests apply to medical school every year. We even have a Jesuit Premed Club at my school to give their large numbers support. Jesus representin' in da house.

Thats interesting, we have a Franciscan Pre-med Club at Ohio State

 

[Mistress S]

I was planning to apply to Georgetown and Loyola, but now I'm wondering if that is such a good idea. I have worked in a women's health clinic serving low income/uninsured patients for >6 years now, obviously this constitutes a large part of my clinical experience and has had a huge influence on why I want to be a doc. The clinic I work at provides abortion care and birth control, and I proudly support the right of all people to reproductive freedom and choice. I wonder if these schools would hold this background against me, and also if I would be happy working in an environment that deprived women of access to this vital care. I didn't think the whole Jesuit thing really affected anything, but this is actually a pretty big deal to me. It sounds like Georgetown is a bit more liberal, is that the case? Do they also not provide birth control or teach abortion? I can live without learning abortions in med school (that is something you probably only observe as a med student and wouldn't actually learn until you were a resident anyway), but it is important to me that women have access to contraception as this is such a huge part of women's health and in my opinion, directly connected to the very social justice issues these institutions claim to be concerned about. I am thinking about crossing Loyola off the list now and maybe adding a secular school instead.

 

[matthew45]

Obviously we don't want this thread to turn into a shouting match about reprogenics, but I'm going to throw my hat into the ring on this one.

I'm starting at Loyola next fall and one of the reasons I choose this Jesuit school is so that I would probably not have to sit next to someone who was going to become an abortionist. While I don't kid myself into thinking that all of my fellow students will be as pro-life as I am I do imagine that if someone was a gung-ho abortion rights person they would probably not be at Loyola.

I say kudos to the Jesuits for sticking to their guns and rejecting the idea that contraception and abortion are vital aspects of good health care. Just one man's opinion.

FYI - did you know that "Jesuit" was actually a pejorative term initially? Sort of like "Yankee" or "Limey."

Matt

 

[Gleevec]

I say kudos to the Jesuits for sticking to their guns and rejecting the idea that contraception and abortion are vital aspects of good health care. Just one man's opinion.

Jesuits will at least refer someone to another hospital if they wish to use contraceptives or have an abortion, right? IE, they wouldnt deny the existence of such things when giving a patient treatment options.

 

[Peterock]

Jesuits will at least refer someone to another hospital if they wish to use contraceptives or have an abortion, right? IE, they wouldnt deny the existence of such things when giving a patient treatment options.

Let's squash this whole abortion issue now. In my interview at Loyola, I talked about a girl I worked with in HS who was 13 years old and was pregnant with her SECOND child during my Loyola interview. The bottom line in the conversation is that I felt I had no right to tell this girl what to do with her child. The reality is that she is black HS drop out with a second child before the age of 16 and living on welfare b/c her mom was on crack, and her min. wage job doesn't pay the bills. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this child will never get a decent shot at life.

I may be pro-life, but I acknowledge there are realities that are far worse than death. My interview lasted roughly two hours and I really doubt that my idealism: pro-life v. realism: pro-choice really had any significance based on the Jesuit foundations of the school. Perhaps it showed that I had thought about the issue and given more than a knee-jerk reaction.

Frankly, there are many Catholics who believe in abortion as well as priests. I have a lot of respect for Loyola and I do not think they would openly discriminate (Mistress S) against your type of EC.

And matthew45, what kind of school/religious representative are you to shun another for a belief that is different from your own? If you feel abortion is wrong, how exactly does shunning someone help the situation?

 

[Odaroloc]

I'm confused, how was he shunning someone?

 

[matthew45]

Peterock,
Dude, like I said, I don't really want to make this the abortion argument thread.

As for the shunning thing: I beleive that one thing that is sorely lacking in American discussions of social issues is real effort to understand the other person's position. This does not mean that ability to lay it out clearly but the ability to try to grasp how they feel.

You may not agree with me but as a true pro-lifer I don't view abortion as a complicated moral issue, I view it as homicide. You can disagree with my position until the cows come home, but you should be able to see why I don't really want to rub shoulders with people who will perpetuate the violence.

Skip the flames if you would, I've heard all the comebacks and so have you. I think we should let this thread fade.


Matt

 

[LaurieB]

I was planning to apply to Georgetown and Loyola, but now I'm wondering if that is such a good idea. I have worked in a women's health clinic serving low income/uninsured patients for >6 years now, obviously this constitutes a large part of my clinical experience and has had a huge influence on why I want to be a doc. The clinic I work at provides abortion care and birth control, and I proudly support the right of all people to reproductive freedom and choice. I wonder if these schools would hold this background against me, and also if I would be happy working in an environment that deprived women of access to this vital care. I didn't think the whole Jesuit thing really affected anything, but this is actually a pretty big deal to me. It sounds like Georgetown is a bit more liberal, is that the case? Do they also not provide birth control or teach abortion? I can live without learning abortions in med school (that is something you probably only observe as a med student and wouldn't actually learn until you were a resident anyway), but it is important to me that women have access to contraception as this is such a huge part of women's health and in my opinion, directly connected to the very social justice issues these institutions claim to be concerned about. I am thinking about crossing Loyola off the list now and maybe adding a secular school instead.

The topics of contraception and abortion are both taught in Loyola's curriculum (http://www.meddean.luc.edu/lumen/MedEd/obgyne/). I believe that the hospital does not restrict access to any forms of preventative contraception, but I'm not sure about emergency contraception.

PS Thanks for the well wishes, Phil A.

 

[Peterock]

Hmm.. sorry, but I have strong ambivalent feelings towards abortion. I welcome discussion over both sides of this issue. Again, I feel you do a disservice to your cause if you could not or did not want to sit next to someone who is pro-life or an "abortionist". Personally, I am a "true pro-lifer" as you called it, but in this case, I cannot justify imposing my will on someone else's life depending on their motivations that I may NEVER be able to understand. I'm sure Mistress S has seen young girls who have used coat hangers to abort their children. Teenage mothers lose their lives doing this... I will never understand what this is like, and I don't think that I'm worthy or able to pass judgment on these people.

And homicide is not a simple matter either. Please look at how our penal system passes judgment: 1st, 2nd,3rd degree, manslaughter etc. There are many shades of gray here.

I did not flame you and I'm sorry if you felt I was being aggressive. It's just that I get the impression from your posts that you would not want to be around someone who practices abortions and I wonder how that really helps your cause? You don't change people's viewpoints by simply shunning them...
If you believe that the "one thing that is sorely lacking in American discussions of social issues is real effort to understand the other person's position", than why do you work so hard to isolate yourself from these issues?

Anyway, good luck to you.

 

[SlopinMunkyDude]

it seemed like a very strong institution despite the religous connotations.

You are quite a strong human being, except you consume too much oxygen. Why don't you quit?

And homicide is not a simple matter either

Sure it is. You kill a man through your own maliciousness or negligence, and you're going to pay. The question is how much and in what way.

Again, I feel you do a disservice to your cause if you could not or did not want to sit next to someone who is pro-life or an "abortionist".

I see where he's coming from. I don't think he does himself a disservice at all. Diversity has to be the most overrated side to an education out there. All it does is sew conflict and restrict communication. Everyone conforms to the little standards of the community and privately segregates themselves into little cliques that best match their personal identity. You go to a non-diverse school, and Asians and blacks intermingle with whites. Go to a diverse school (or town) and there you have the cliques popping up.

Why do you want to have to deal with having to politicize your education? Especially on an issue like abortion. I'm sorry, I don't see one dam_n justification for sucking a fetus' body into a vacuum cleaner to dump it in the trash.

 

[Peterock]

SlopinMunkyDude....

1) please label your quotes as the first one was not mine and I don't want to be seen as anti-Catholic

- I have nothing else to add

Again, people in a group have different beliefs. I don't think the people at Loyola are going to particurarly discriminate based on a single issue, though I could always be wrong. I know students at the school who are pro-life and pro-choice. I really hope that people don't feel compelled to hide who they are b/c of the admissions process, even if it is simply a belief.

I asked many students at the school about being a Catholic and if it mattered. I got mixed results. Thats anybody's guess.

 

[LaurieB]

Hey guys, let's try to stay on the topic of the original post and refrain from turning this into a flame war.

 

[SlopinMunkyDude]

- I have nothing else to add

I already read what you had to add. Whatever.

To reiterate the obvious from this thread, you probably won't see any Jesuits in the student body, as the Jesuits are an order of priests. With that said, I think an admissions committee would look favorably upon someone with a commitment to the spiritual commitment and social justice the Jesuits espouse.

I don't think that it would be a major disadvantage if you weren't Catholic. Jesuits don't tend to be exclusive.

Just as an aside, I heard today that the Vatican is currently responsible for caring for 1/4 of the worlds AIDS patients. Interesting.

 

[TIMMY]

I think its pathetic that some people have the time to come up with well constructed replies to OPs that deliberately incite arguements instead of creating an atmosphere for others to be involved in an educative discussion.

Is it me or are there people out there who just want to make other people's posts as unintelligent and dump as possible? Writing well thought out responses that not only throw the OP right off track but also are directed to make other posts seem irrelevant to the OP. I cant understand why it is so gratifying winning a controversial argument on an issue that has been debated in society for decades.......spell something wrong or use the singular instead of the plural and all of a sudden you are a target (Speaking of several other threads not this in particular).... I think we are above this sort of stuff.

Why cant we all just make insightful contributions to the OP without starting cat fights and end up getting this thread closed down by the moderator.
My 2 cents.

 

[OSU ACTON]

x

 

[Odaroloc]

all apologies aside...stop turning this thread into an abortion debate...

 

[funkless]

We're working on that... gimme five more minutes in chat...

--Funkless

 

[chuck deli]

I too am attending Loyola next year (actually, it's just a couple weeks away!). However, I am not Catholic, and I am pro-choice. Despite the fact that I am pro-choice, I am willing to attend this Catholic-backed institution.

Why? Because I strongly believe in its "we don't just try the disease, we treat the human spirit" idea. I like the fact that at Loyola students learn how medicine is more than just a differencial diagnosis. We are taught that religions, of any kind, plays a critical role in healing, disease, and death. Doctors should not be afraid of tackling these issues. During the first months of school we coat-tail varioius religious leaders, from all different religions. I like the idea of listening your patients, and not worrying if you exceed the 10 minutes per patient rule.

Further, although I am an excellent student and want to succeed, I am not a "gunner" and do not want to be surrounded by gunners. I want to attend a school where I can be friendly with my peers (and all go out to the Ale House every once and awhile). Where the school has social activities, where you have time to exercise, where you don't spend all day in lectures, where you are near a large city, where you have time to do community service, where you get to know the faculty on a first name basis...I could go on and on. Loyola provides this. Just look at the student satisfaction ratings at Loyola.

So although I may personnally disagree with the "Catholics don't believe in abortions or birth control" idea, I also don't think that should be a distractor from applying to Jesuit institutions. It's not like there's a rule here that states "thou shall never say the word "abortion" and thou shall never ever learn about them". These concepts are still taught at Loyola, however they are not performed. If you have an interest in them, Loyola will send you to one of the other Chicago hospitals that is not Catholic based. Every person has different opinions and life experiences. I applaude Matt for his opinions. And I am sure he will agree that he is entitled to believe in whatever he wants, but at the same time, everyone is entitled to make an educated decision on topics. There will always be disagreement. I simply believe otherwise.

Laura, Matt, LA Brat, and others... can't wait to see you soon!

 

[lyragrl]

I was planning to apply to Georgetown and Loyola, but now I'm wondering if that is such a good idea. I have worked in a women's health clinic serving low income/uninsured patients for >6 years now, obviously this constitutes a large part of my clinical experience and has had a huge influence on why I want to be a doc. The clinic I work at provides abortion care and birth control, and I proudly support the right of all people to reproductive freedom and choice. I wonder if these schools would hold this background against me, and also if I would be happy working in an environment that deprived women of access to this vital care. I didn't think the whole Jesuit thing really affected anything, but this is actually a pretty big deal to me. It sounds like Georgetown is a bit more liberal, is that the case? Do they also not provide birth control or teach abortion? I can live without learning abortions in med school (that is something you probably only observe as a med student and wouldn't actually learn until you were a resident anyway), but it is important to me that women have access to contraception as this is such a huge part of women's health and in my opinion, directly connected to the very social justice issues these institutions claim to be concerned about. I am thinking about crossing Loyola off the list now and maybe adding a secular school instead.

This is just anecdotal, but I had a friend who volunteered with Planned Parenthood who applied to Loyola. She never even got a secondary from them. She's going to the University of Michigan instead.

 

[Odaroloc]

Conspiracy!


PS it's "LAB rat"

 

[chuck deli]

Sorry Lab Rat!

 

[Odaroloc]

All good

 

[lola]

i am extremely liberal, pro-choice, pro-stem cell research, etc... and received interviews from both jesuit schools i applied to last year (loyola, gtown). i don't think they really care as long as you are open to other beliefs and have respect for other people. in my gtown interview i talked about how i was in favor of stem cell research, and the lady thanked me for my honesty and i eventually got in off the waitlist.

 

[Weil-Felix]

Just another bit of info regarding a Jesuit institution:

I just graduated from Creighton, so I know a little something about the social atmosphere there. Religion was more or less a non-issue for the most part at Creighton. Except for the crucifixes on the walls of the classroom, and the chapel down the hall, there was very little to remind me that I was at a Catholic institution. There was perhaps a higher percentage of Catholics in our class (my best guess is about 25%, but it seemed that the people I hung out with did not discuss religion much) but there was also a pretty good mix of students from other religious and/or philosophical backgrounds as well. Occasionally, there were masses offered for special intentions. I attended one myself that was offered for a classmate who was struggling with a serious illness. What was particularly touching to me was the fact that a good number of people from our class attended to show thier support, and I know that a lot of these classmates were not even Catholic.

There was one lecture during the preclinical years that stood out to me as something you would not see at a secular institution. That lecture was about "Natural Family Planning" as an alternative for patients to artificial contraception. Although I understand the lecturer was not overtly trying to
convince anyone not to prescribe or suggest so-called "artificial" contraception, the efficacy figures she quoted were grossly misleading, and I felt as though I was sitting through a propaganda session. Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with NFP, but to proclaim that it is 99% effective is simply untrue and potentially damaging to patients who may believe everything a doctor tells them. This was the one and only time I felt as though the Catholicism at my institution was intrusive in any way. And it was just one half hour lecture, so although I was annoyed, it wasn't a really huge deal.

As far as the wards go, I never worked with anyone who refused to discuss or prescribe birth control. In fact, the OB department was always well stocked with OCP samples. On my OB rotation, I never encountered a patient with an unplanned pregancy that was interested in abortion, but I questioned a couple of the OB residents I worked with about whether they would ever refer someone to an abortion clinic and they told me that they would have no qualms about doing that if the patient requested it. I have heard that if a student is particularly interested in learning how to perform an abortion, they may arrange to do a rotation at an institution that performs them. In fact, it is my understanding that even at many secular instititions, students must go out of their way to get such training, because it is generally not a part of the usual curriculum.

At the student health clinic, I once requested a prescription for OCPs. I was asked by the PA why I needed the prescription, to which I replied "Well, birth control, of course". She said, "You realize I cannot prescribe those for birth control." I said "Ehhh...well I also have some skin problems that I think would benefit from OCPs." And then she wrote me the prescription. Quite strange, but as long as I got my script, right?

So anyway, out of four years, there were just a couple instances that struck me as being a little different from what you might encounter at a non-Jesuit school. If you ask me about advantages to going to a Jesuit school, I would say that Creighton was particularly focused on community service and I do believe that had something to do with its Jesuit affiliation.

 

[Odaroloc]

I would say that as a group, Catholics (myself included) don't sit around and talk about religion...that has just been my experience, for what it's worth.

 

[Weil-Felix]

Oh, and one other thing:

MistressS, you mentioned that you might be discriminated against for your involvement with a women's health clinic. I don't think you would be. I was involved in an HIV/AIDS clinic that primarily focused of HIV prevention through safe sex education (with particular emphasis on condom use, which is a big no-no to devout Catholics). I got in, and I am quite certain that this volunteer experience helped rather than hindered in my admission. Good luck.