Job advice

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EtherBunny

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My wife and I are in a relatively interesting situation. We're still in training but will start looking for jobs soon. She is a surgical subspecialist and I'm in interventional pain. Our combined income in the first year should be $500-600K. We're debating between moving to the Midwest vs. the San Francisco Bay area for our first jobs. The big issue is whether it would be smarter to move to the Midwest, where the cost of living is low and the compensation is relatively high, for a few years to pay off our student loan debt (approximately $500,000) THEN move to the bay area. Alternatively we are considering the possibility of just biting the bullet and moving to the bay area from the get go. If you guys were in our situation with a lot of student debt and a young kid (< 5 years old), what would you do? Move to the Midwest for a few years or just move to California from the beginning and potentially have some trouble making ends meet for a few years?

Would it be stupid to join a anesthesiology/pain practice in the midwest for 2-3 years then move to the bay area? Would the experience help or hurt me in the long run?

Thanks for any input on the matter.

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My wife and I are in a relatively interesting situation. We're still in training but will start looking for jobs soon. She is a surgical subspecialist and I'm in interventional pain. We're debating between moving to the Midwest vs. the San Francisco Bay area for our first jobs. The big issue is whether it would be smarter to move to the Midwest, where the cost of living is low and the compensation is relatively high, for a few years to pay off our student loan debt (approximately $500,000) THEN move to the bay area. Alternatively we are considering the possibility of just biting the bullet and moving to the bay area from the get go. If you guys were in our situation with a lot of student debt and a young kid (< 5 years old), what would you do? Move to the Midwest for a few years or just move to California from the beginning and have some trouble making ends meet for a few years?Thanks for any input on the matter.

Midwest. Get out from under that boulder. And avoid North America's version of Greece.
 
Midwest. Get out from under that boulder. And avoid North America's version of Greece.

Go with the Midwest and just visit San Fran. Living there will cost both of you a bundle and you might want to consider practicing for 10 years in the Midwest then reevaluating whether or not you want to relocate to San Fran at that time. My friends in every specialty in San Fran make very little money, work long hours, and don't get to enjoy the environment of San Fran nearly as much as they thought they would. We visit every year and one week is enough to satisfy our urges for the food and quirky atmosphere.
 
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Go where you want to live. You WILL put down roots wherever you settle. You're wife is a subspecialist so she's going to be joining a practice. It might not be so easy to move once she gets established. You're going to be a pain guy right? Well if you have your own patients it might be tough to crack the market. If you have kids, they will make friends, do you want to explain to them why they have to leave their friends b/c mommy and daddy don't like the midwest?

You're both professionals whose income combined will be in the top 1%. You will be able to live comfortably in any city in america. Pick the one you like the most and you will never regret it.
 
I'd do what's financially right for you (Midwest, make money, pay off debt) and maybe take the SF job later.


I'm out in BFE cowtown.

Most people who come here (many semi-unwillingly) really aren't thrilled about it. Most leave after a few years and are glad to get back to civilization, but many stay.

I grew up in the Bay Area, and SF would be on a short list of big cities for me to live in again, if I ever moved back to a city. I've come to like being out in the sticks though, and since my wife grew up in ranchville, we'll probably never go back to a city.

Point being, you might be surprised that in the end, you don't miss the crowds or traffic, and stay.
 
Hard to offer good advice based on the limited information you provided, but let me ask you some questions and make some comments:

Do you actually have a job lined up out here? Things are tough. Only 1 of the half-dozen pain guys I know are actually doing pain, including people that trained out here (which I suspect you didn't). If you don't have an offer, it may be a moot point. If you DO, well, might want to take the rare opportunity.

Lots of people have advised you to choose the midwest based on cost, and someone wisely pointed out that the "midwest" is not a homogenous target, and you'll find lots of cities with equal or better urban living. That said, visiting someplace is not like living there. The advice you've received is mostly from people who spend a lot of time thinking and posting about money and some pretty dark scenarios. Not judging, and maybe they're right, but the fact is a lot of people on this board are pretty pessimistic and that colors their advice.

And speaking of costs, can you stomach shelling out a cool million for a pretty mediocre 2-Br condo in a so-so part of town? Do you have 300K in cash for the down payment (yeah, they require 25% down, and no, I don't know anyone who's found the so-called physician loan with a lower down payment). If not, then you're looking at $4000/month to rent a similar condo. Of course, you can pay less in worse parts of town or in the burbs, but if THAT's your plan, why come here at all? You mentioned your 5 yr-old kid. Do you have plans for private school? Since you're new in town and not politically connected, you can bank on doing poorly in the school lottery. Want to drive your kid to Bayview every day for school, or shell out $30K+ per year for private school? Or, again, move to the burbs, but, of course, if you're gonna live in the burbs, you could be anywhere but here.

Ready for 10% state income tax and no mortgage deduction while you rent to save for your down payment?

All that said, I really like my job and I like my life out here, but not for the reasons most people think they want to live in SF. I'm not sure where you're coming from, but as a city, for an urban experience, it's pretty mediocre. Yes, the food is great, but the best places in most real cities are just as good (but the average place here is easily better than the average place elsewhere). The real joy is being among mostly like-minded, politically liberal, socially-conscious, community oriented people. There is a social tolerance here that I haven't seen elsewhere (and I came from Chicago which I thought was VERY liberal). And being close to nature, which I didn't think I'd care much about before I got here. And the culture is one of, not so much indulgence, but pleasure. People are a little more laid back and appropriately focused on leisure in a way that suits me. SF is close to a lot of fun, beautiful things that, if you just visit here, you'll likely never get to embrace.

The comments about CA in general, I think, may be unfounded. Yes, our absolute debt is high, but per capita, I doubt it's any higher than anywhere else (and, BTW, we have the world's 9th largest economy). Yes, maybe our unions are a little stronger than most, and maybe our entitlement programs are less solvent than others, but I don't know if that's a great reason not to live here.

All THAT said, I spend a lot of time in Mpls and Chicago, and those are incredible places. MUCH lower housing costs, MUCH better public schools, similar salaries, better (MUCH, in the case of Chicago) urban life, friendly people, parks, museums, theater, food, culture, proximity to nature (in the case of Mpls, anyway).

Anyway, that's my take on it. I've lived in the Midwest (MN, IA, Chicago) and SF, so feel free to PM me if you have specific questions.
 
The advice you've received is mostly from people who spend a lot of time thinking and posting about money and some pretty dark scenarios. Not judging, and maybe they're right, but the fact is a lot of people on this board are pretty pessimistic and that colors their advice.

:hello: Guilty ... :)


The real joy is being among mostly like-minded, politically liberal, socially-conscious, community oriented people. There is a social tolerance here that I haven't seen elsewhere (and I came from Chicago which I thought was VERY liberal).

If there's one thing I really dislike about rural America, it's that you don't have to look far or very hard to find some minimally camouflaged bigotry, whether racial or anti-gay or religious in nature.

It's not so bad where I am now - the military base and reasonably diverse population probably has something to do with that - but it could be pretty awful in rural parts of NC and VA I lived in before coming here.
 
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