Job offers after EM

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DrQuinn

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So I'm House Officer right now and besides reading my On Call book, I have been endlessly refreshing the SDN websites for new posts.

So I thought I'd start a new thread that I haven't really seen in a while on the EM threads (or most threads for that matter).

What are the starting offers for positions of recent EM grads? And where?

I will start:

Know some EM attendings who have offered residents "$250k a year" to start at a Level 2 Trauma Center here in Florida (hospital has FP and OB/GYN residencies).

Last year I got no specifics but heard residents at the Univ of MD had "no problem" clearing 200k and at a hospital of their choice (got wined and dined. Most of the places were in the midwest)

Know an IM/Peds attending who worked in the Adult/Peds ED in S. Florida who made $140 an hour as a general contractor.

Any other rumors?

Q, DO

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Originally posted by Apollyon
As an IM prelim, got nada last year, but, now, I get a lot of offers - including Team Health!

(For those that don't know, Team Health backs the USF EM program.)

Do you have any actual numbers? I know Duke hasn't yet graduated any residents... but heard anything on the grapevine?

Q, DO
 
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I just got an offer in the mail for $350K a year from some place in Missouri. Don't know much about it though, I just chucked the card in the trash with the rest of the junk mail. There is more to life than money
 
I suppose one can pay off all their debt after a one-year tour of duty in Missouri.
 
Woudl you really do that? I wonder if people do. It must be hard to get a licence in one state, be allowed hospital priviliges, etc, just for a year's work.

Q
 
The license isn't a question; you just get that ball rolling, and wait 6 months to a year. The job, on the other hand...

However, if a group needs bodies, they'll help with your privileges and so on (doing the legwork, etc.). Moreover, if they're paying the long green, they've had people do one year and out before.
 
Midwest rural medicine, is paying in the range of $120 to $130/hr. Average hrs per week is 48. Remember that OT on the last 8 hrs is $195/hr. That makes the Gross about $365,040 per year. I know one resident who went back to Wisconsin and is starting out at $170K but is only working a 32hrs/wk shift. That is starting out at $102/hr. Another Resident went to the more populated east coast and is only making $85/hr but had some nice signon incentives.
 
There is no reason a non-academic EM trained new graduate should work for less than 110/hr I myself can moonlight for $120/hr!
One does not have to look far for starting wages of 200k plus benefits...
 
what about ER residency at KUMC ?? how could i find out??

thanks!
 
KUMC_MD:

KU doesn't yet have an Emergency Medicine residency. When I graduated there in 2000, they were moving towards the possibility of starting one but I don't know what's been happening since then. The director of the Emergency Department is Dr. Allin - he's the one to talk to about whether KU is planning on starting a residency in the near future.
 
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what residencies are there in missouri i wonder... hate asking you guys stupid questions like this, but i do not really know of any other way to find out????
 
Originally posted by DO_messenger
what residencies are there in missouri i wonder... hate asking you guys stupid questions like this, but i do not really know of any other way to find out????

Quick check on saem.org revealed 2 Missouri residencies:

1. University of Missouri - Kansas City/Truman Medical Center
2. Washington University

;)
 
what residencies are there in missouri i wonder... hate asking you guys stupid questions like this, but i do not really know of any other way to find out????


for all the new applicants, if you go to saem.org and click on residency catalog (on the left hand side)... you can find all the em residencies, information including their length in years (1-3, 1-4, 2-3), and a link to their websites....
 
Originally posted by jazz
for all the new applicants, if you go to saem.org and click on residency catalog (on the left hand side)... you can find all the em residencies, information including their length in years (1-3, 1-4, 2-3), and a link to their websites....

Which is what my link leads to... ;)
 
Regarding the original topic, are these job offers w/ or w/o benefits (health and med mal), bonuses for volume, and how many shifts/month?

AVD
 
Originally posted by AVD
Regarding the original topic, are these job offers w/ or w/o benefits (health and med mal), bonuses for volume, and how many shifts/month?

It varies. You can find both. In my case, most of the offers included health and practically all full-time offers you get will include med-mal.

The type of med-mal I saw most was a plan that covered all patients seen by that group of physicians in that hospital. The only real downside I could see to this is that the insurance plan covers the physician group, not specifically each physician, which means if the group goes under, so does the coverage. In other respects it seems to be the same malpractice coverage you'd get buying it by yourself (though obviously much less expensive).

The other minor downside is that the coverage wouldn't include any other medical practice you might have outside that particular group/hospital.

Many included either a producitivity bonus or a permanent raise depending on your productivity, but not all.

Shifts/month? Well it depends on how much you want to work really. You won't find many places which force you to work more hours than you're comfortable with. I'm currently working about 145-150 hours/month, and that's about my comfort level. I've worked (much) more for short stretches, but you really start to feel the burnout if you do that for long.
 
thas about 35 hrs a week... not even true full time........ what about over time, is it given if we want it????
 
Originally posted by KUMC_MD
thas about 35 hrs a week... not even true full time........ what about over time, is it given if we want it????

35 hours/week is what I think most guys will end up settling at. You have to remember that as rotating shift worker, a fair number of hours per week are lost just in adjusting your schedule. Plus, if you work in a busy, high acuity ED 35 hours of non-stop GOGOGO is plenty.

You probably won't have a problem finding more hours if you want them, but I suspect you won't want to be working 160+ for very long. There's no such thing as overtime. On the whole, you get paid for the hours you work, no matter how many you're working. Just because you work more hours doesn't mean the insurers nor Medicare will reimburse you higher.
 
Does anyone know the approximate salary range in the Northwest (WA and OR) for ED physicians just out of residency?
 
i guess it is something above 100 bucks an hour??
 
So are most EM jobs salaried or are you just paid by the hour and given a choice of how many shifts you want to work each month?
 
Originally posted by Hercules
So are most EM jobs salaried or are you just paid by the hour and given a choice of how many shifts you want to work each month?

Pretty much all the latter. No one I know (or have even heard of) is working as a salaried employee. Some few groups may pay you strictly on a "eat what you kill" basis, but those are relatively uncommon nowadays. You hourly rate may be dependent on your productivity in the long run however, depending on the arrangement.
 
KICKBACKDUDE:I work with 3 different EM groups in oregon and washington.from this small sample jobs in the pacific nw pay around $80-145/hr. high end for residency trained/board certified at trauma ctr, less for hmo and/or primary care residency.
northwest emergency physicians(team health) has many opportunities in these areas.
 
Originally posted by emedpa
KICKBACKDUDE:I work with 3 different EM groups in oregon and washington.from this small sample jobs in the pacific nw pay around $80-145/hr. high end for residency trained/board certified at trauma ctr, less for hmo and/or primary care residency.
northwest emergency physicians(team health) has many opportunities in these areas.

That seems about in line with the friends that I know working in the Pac NW region. Also keep in mind that the Pac NW is typically a pretty saturated job market. You can find work, but it may not be exactly where and what you'd like as far as pay. Physician turnover in the good places (as in most places, but more so in the NW) is quite low. You may have to work per diem for a while before a good position opens up.
 
What is it about the Pac NW that makes it so difficult to find a position?

Is it a really great place to live or something along those lines?

Never lived anywhere near that area (From NY) so I don't know much about the region...

-Mike
 
Originally posted by InfiniteUni
What is it about the Pac NW that makes it so difficult to find a position?

Is it a really great place to live or something along those lines?

Something along those lines. California's the same way.
 
Salaries depend on a lot of things. Academics traditionally pays a lot less than community jobs. Living in major coastal cities will generally pay less, simply because of supply/demand. From my program, we have people making 300k+ in OK (this guy was stoked, because he was actually from there and wanted to be there). We have some people who go to TX to make blood money (pays excellent, but high turnover due to high volume and burnout). We have people making 160k doing academics. I think the average grad from our class makes in the 180-200k range...There are a lot of factors that determine salaries. You have to decide what kind of working conditions you prefer (academic v community.....big city vs rural.....volume.....location, etc). Benefits? Some of these high salaries do not include benefits (independent contractor). Be careful when selecting your workplace. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is. At many of the high salary blood money places, you will see their ads month after month in the journals...If these places truly did have great job satisfaction, do you think that they would be continuously recruiting?
Good luck!
 
I know some guys that used to work in one well-advertised place in Texas (that I won't name) that promised a ton of money. And they delivered on the money part of it. But what they didn't mention is that you'd be overloaded with patients, the primaries would give you endless crap about wanting to admit patients, the surigcal consultants sometimes had to be dragged in for true surgical emergencies (and very late at that), the nursing staff sucked, and that all of the above would insult and belittle you all day long. No amount of money is worth that. Add to that the fact that you wouldn't have to work there long to get involved in a lawsuit from the inevitable bad outcomes, and it quickly becomes obvious what a really bad deal some of these places can be.

The best jobs won't be advertised in Annals or any of the throwaways. The best are usually filled from local people they know, part-timers that already work there, or connections (friend of a friend, same residency, etc.).

My opinion is that salary shouldn't be your primary concern coming straight out of residency. The first place you work should be someplace where you can grow and learn without getting overwhelmed or burned out. Where I first worked out of residency was, I think, ideal for that stage of my career. Level 2 trauma center, teriary care center, triple covered at the busiest hours, and with a trauma surgeon around most of the time. I can't emphasize enough how much I think immediately-recent grads shouldn't work in single coverage situations. The learning process doesn't end with residency, and what you can learn from your colleagues who have been practicing for years is invaluable in your first steps out of residency. Clinical pearls which you might pick up here and there after reading lots of letters in journals come constantly when you have people to run things by immediately.
 
The other big factor that will determine pay in emergency medicine aside from the aforementioned geography, supply/demand, volume, acuity, payer mix, etc. is the type of practice the hospital employs.

I'm going to rate these in order of desirability from lowest to highest, and realize that it's just my opinion (though I think widely shared).

---------------------------

Lowest: Paid employee of for-profit hospital or HMO.

Both of these entities have one primary goal in mind--making money. Taking care of patients and keeping their employees happy is clearly of secondary importance or less. Their primary obligation is to their stockholders, and the stockholders want a return on their investment. The obvious corollary is that they'll pay their employees (including you) as little as they can get away with. The only good thing is that as an employee, you'll probably get a reasonably full benefit package.

They may offer a performance incentive, but don't expect to get rich off it.

--------------------------

Middle: Paid employee of non-profit hospital, medical megacorporation, or working for another physician or group of physicians who owns the contract for the hospital.

While there are still interests at the top of the organization that want a piece of your earnings, the motivation in these types of practices is at least less profit-oriented. Not-for-profit hospitals usually have patient care as the primary goal of their institution and employee happiness and an important secondary goal. That said, if the not-for-profit hospital is having trouble making ends meet, they'll have to start cutting costs, and your salary is a cost. You do the math.

Working for a megacorp (EmCare, TeamHealth, etc) that specializes in providing physician services falls in here as well. Again, they have higher ups that profit from your work and have an interest in getting the maximum productivity out of you. They also have a vested interest in keeping you happy, so they'll pay you better than the HMOs and work harder to provide the services and benefits you want.

Working for a small physician contract-holder falls in this range as well for the same reasons, and can be better or worse than either of the above depending on the benevolence of the contract holder(s). The same caveats apply as with the megacorps in that somebody higher up in the food chain is benefiting significantly from the work that you do and depriving you of the money you earned. Many question the ethics of physicians who do this to other physicians, and rightly so I think.

Benefits in this category vary considerably, though many such jobs are only as independent contractors. That means that they often provide little or no benefits, and you have to fend for yourself as far as disability, retirement, health and dental, and perhaps even malpractice.

You are more likely to receive a performance incentive in these practice environments, but again don't expect to retire in 10 years from it.

-------------------

Highest: Partnership in a democratic group

This is the holy grail of emergency medicine practice (aside from being a lowlife moneygrubbing contract-holder squeezing other physicians dry, depending on how ethical you are). In this practice, you own a part of the practice as do all your colleagues, and all decisions of the practice are decided by vote. The pay is distributed equitably, and any extra earnings are distributed to the working physicians with only the costs of administration and overhead subtracted. As far as stability, compensation, and job satisfaction, this situation is almost always the best.

The physicians in democratic groups are generally more involved in the medical community and hospital committees than in the previous situations, which increases their bargaining power when it comes time to negotiate the contract. You'll have more say in how the emergency department is run, and to a certain extent, how other services (especially ancillary services) in the hospital run.

The pay is clearly better than any of the other described work situations for obvious reasons.

For these reasons, they can generally afford to hire the best physicians available, so your colleagues will be of generally higher calibur than you would find in the previous categories.

-------------------

I think it's obvious which work environment I prefer, though some prefer the first type of arrangement. Working as a salary-man is fine for those that just want to clock in, clock out, and collect a paycheck, as long as they're content with collecting a smaller paycheck than their colleagues in democratic groups. I have friends who prefer this lifestyle, and that's fine for them. Whether it suits you is something you have to decide for yourself.
 
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