Job poll

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neurofellow

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Now is near the end of the academic year and let's do a poll of the job status at your institution.

I will begin with my institution, a medium-sized program.

2 Surgpath fellows, both going for subspecialty fellowships
1 GI fellow, in-office lab
1 GYN fellow, going to cytopath fellowship
2 Cytopath fellows, one going for surgpath fellowship, the other one has a job in a local community hospital
2 Hemepath fellows, one is staying for a second year research, the other one still looking for a job
1 Neuropath, me, doing a second year

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Unbelievable! 30 years ago it was 4 years( maybe 5 with internship) and then a job. That "heme path and a second year of research" will really help (sarcasm)
 
Now is near the end of the academic year and let's do a poll of the job status at your institution.

I will begin with my institution, a medium-sized program.

2 Surgpath fellows, both going for subspecialty fellowships
1 GI fellow, in-office lab
1 GYN fellow, going to cytopath fellowship
2 Cytopath fellows, one going for surgpath fellowship, the other one has a job in a local community hospital
2 Hemepath fellows, one is staying for a second year research, the other one still looking for a job
1 Neuropath, me, doing a second year

Wow. That is sobering.
 
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Does anyone else see sub-sub or sub-sub-sub specialty fellowships on the horizon? If you have to keep training while waiting for a job, doesn't it make more sense to corner the market on one's sub-specialty by going deeper into the area, rather than flitting to an unrelated subject? Hepatobiliary fellowship following a GI fellowship, for example?
 
large program

3 surgpath fellows: one doing 2nd subspecialty AP fellowship, one taking job in academics (at another institution more than 1,000 miles away), one currently interviewing for an academic position but nothing "in the bag" at this point

3 hemepath fellows: one maybe has a long-term job (currently doing locums somewhere), one taking a private practice job a few hundred miles away, one doing a surgpath fellowship (rather, completing a surgpath fellowship that was started but not finished the year before . . . also has visa issues)

2 cytopath fellows: one had a private practice job lined up, but it fell apart (I think due to visa issues . . . now having to return to home country for at least 2 years), the other fellow (who also completed a surgpath fellowship last year) was still looking for a job as of late April (don't know if anything has developed since then)

1 microbiology fellow: landed a local private practice job

1 GI fellow: staying on as faculty

2 forensics fellows: I have no idea . . . we never even meet these people if they come from outside our program and we don't happen to have an ME rotation that year (which I haven't had this year)

1 breast fellow: took a private practice job several hundred miles away (this person also had previous experience in private practice before doing the breast fellowship)

1 neuropath fellow: is in the armed forces, so is starting a job with them in July

2 peds path fellows: one took an ME job a few hundreed miles away (this person actually did AP only + ME fellowship before doing the peds path fellowship), the other fellow took a non-local private practice job (this person actually went into part of a 2nd year of peds fellowship . . . not sure if this was because of time taken off during the first year or just because a suitable job couldn't be found by the end of the first year)

1 transfusion medicine fellow: took an academic job at a well-known medical center more than 1,000 miles away . . . not the same place as the surgpath fellow)

1 chemistry fellow: actually did 2 years of chemistry fellowship and is now taking a job at a local (I think) company, sweet gig from what I hear

1 cytogenetics fellow: have no idea . . . never met the person and honestly didn't even know of his/her existence until just now
 
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Does anyone else see sub-sub or sub-sub-sub specialty fellowships on the horizon? If you have to keep training while waiting for a job, doesn't it make more sense to corner the market on one's sub-specialty by going deeper into the area, rather than flitting to an unrelated subject? Hepatobiliary fellowship following a GI fellowship, for example?

Its getting completely out of control. The number of people doing two fellowships is staggering and has totally distorted the job market.
 
3 hemepath fellows? Maybe the reason people are seeing difficulty getting jobs in hemepath is that there are way too many hemepath fellowship programs.
 
Now is near the end of the academic year and let's do a poll of the job status at your institution.

I will begin with my institution, a medium-sized program.

2 Surgpath fellows, both going for subspecialty fellowships
1 GI fellow, in-office lab
1 GYN fellow, going to cytopath fellowship
2 Cytopath fellows, one going for surgpath fellowship, the other one has a job in a local community hospital
2 Hemepath fellows, one is staying for a second year research, the other one still looking for a job
1 Neuropath, me, doing a second year

What is the social atmosphere between the fellows? Do they view other fellows as potential competitors? If so, it would be a sad situation.
 
3 hemepath fellows? Maybe the reason people are seeing difficulty getting jobs in hemepath is that there are way too many hemepath fellowship programs.

That may be true. Rumor has it that the department is cutting back to 2 hemepath fellows at any given time (instead of 3).
 
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3 hemepath fellows? Maybe the reason people are seeing difficulty getting jobs in hemepath is that there are way too many hemepath fellowship programs.

It is not unheard of to join a practice where you're the heme consultant for challenging cases and majority of the work you do is not heme-related. Do you need a heme fellowship to signout heme cases? Absolutely not. As mentioned in many prior posts/threads, you have to know your limits and realize when to pass a particular case on to another set of eyes, so it's always nice to have someone around who has had a little more training in a particular area.

Regarding the job market for heme-only... they are out there, but not well-advertised (pretty much true for even non-heme jobs). I do agree that there may be too many heme programs, but you have to consider the institution that is offering the training. Are you going to tell MD Anderson that 6 fellows is too many? Well, now that I've said that, I am sure someone will surely come up with a nice rebuttal. :)
 
1 surg path fellow got a pod lab job after fellowships in cytology, transfusion, and current surg path.

1 surg path (super) fellow completed neuropath fellowship and previous surg path fellowship, and got academic job finally.

1 surg path (super) fellow completed cytology fellowship and previous surg path fellowship, and recently started private practice job.

1 cytology fellow got a private practice job 1000 miles away.

1 cytology fellow previously completed surg path fellowship and still doesn't have position for next year.

1 hemepath fellow got a local private practice job.

1 transfusion medicine fellow previous completed a hemepath fellowship, and still doesn't have a position for next year.

Pathology has a grim job market for sure, there is massive overtraining of pathologists in this country.
 
I'm not sure on everyone's status, but from what I know....

Large program

several (7?) surgpath fellows. I don't know most of them, as most trained in other programs and came here for only 1 year. All are employed next year, in a combination of private or academic jobs. I can't remember if any are pursuing other fellowships, but I'm sure some are.

Hemepath (2). One going to private practice nearby, one going into academics at other institution

Molecular/Hemepath (1): academic job at other institution

Dermpath: Academic job at other institution

GI: Academic job at home institution

Molecular (2): Academic job at home institution (also did surgpath fellowship), Military job

Cyto (1): pursuing second fellowship

Neuro (1): post-doc (academic- seeking research position)

Have lots of CP fellows- but who cares? All got jobs except one, who will stay at home with the kids until husband finishes training next year

*All academic jobs here are at asst. prof level
 
I'm not sure on everyone's status, but from what I know....

Large program

several (7?) surgpath fellows. I don't know most of them, as most trained in other programs and came here for only 1 year. All are employed next year, in a combination of private or academic jobs. I can't remember if any are pursuing other fellowships, but I'm sure some are.

Hemepath (2). One going to private practice nearby, one going into academics at other institution

Molecular/Hemepath (1): academic job at other institution

Dermpath: Academic job at other institution

GI: Academic job at home institution

Molecular (2): Academic job at home institution (also did surgpath fellowship), Military job

Cyto (1): pursuing second fellowship

Neuro (1): post-doc (academic- seeking research position)

Have lots of CP fellows- but who cares? All got jobs except one, who will stay at home with the kids until husband finishes training next year

*All academic jobs here are at asst. prof level

Wow. Must be a good institution. I am at a midlevel university, and I must admit most of the fellows we get are pretty average to bad.
 
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large program
1 microbiology fellow: landed a local private practice job
1 chemistry fellow: actually did 2 years of chemistry fellowship and is now taking a job at a local (I think) company, sweet gig from what I hear
Who would've thought the CP fellows ended up faring pretty well compared to the rest of the graduating class. Scarcity of pathologists with this kind of training perhaps? Or maybe they were post-docs/PhD's with a background targeting non-AP jobs only.
large program
1 breast fellow: took a private practice job several hundred miles away (this person also had previous experience in private practice before doing the breast fellowship)

From private practice to fellowship and then back to a job? Can't imagine the opportunity cost of that year going from 200-400K down to 60K is worth it; unless, there's more to the story like not getting boarded and needing remedial academic credit. Otherwise... :slap:

2 forensics fellows: I have no idea . . . we never even meet these people if they come from outside our program and we don't happen to have an ME rotation that year (which I haven't had this year)
Doing forensics, I have no doubt they would easily land a job as the demand is high, relative to other fellowships in pathology.

2 peds path fellows: one took an ME job a few hundreed miles away (this person actually did AP only + ME fellowship before doing the peds path fellowship), the other fellow took a non-local private practice job (this person actually went into part of a 2nd year of peds fellowship . . . not sure if this was because of time taken off during the first year or just because a suitable job couldn't be found by the end of the first year)

First person isn't going to benefit from the extra neuromuscular pathology exposure in a peds fellowship as it's not gonna help them sign-out deaths due to drug overdoses or gunshot wounds. They could easily have done this without the extra year of training (see above).

Second person most likely found a dry market with peds outside of academia. Surprising they landed a job in private practice with this background. We had a resident from my program who also did a second year of a peds fellowship because they wanted to stay local and options were limited with that kind of training in a small market.


1 cytogenetics fellow: have no idea . . . never met the person and honestly didn't even know of his/her existence until just now

We had a molecular genetics fellow who started the same year I began my fellowship. I remember seeing him during orientation and after that only once more in the parking lot for the rest of the year. I heard he ended up doing a cytogenetics fellowship after...:lame:
 
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Who would've thought the CP fellows ended up faring pretty well compared to the rest of the graduating class. Scarcity of pathologists with this kind of training perhaps? Or maybe they were post-docs/PhD's with a background targeting non-AP jobs only.

The micro fellow is an MD, CP only. The chemistry fellow is a PhD.


From private practice to fellowship and then back to a job? Can't imagine the opportunity cost of that year going from 200-400K down to 60K is worth it; unless, there's more to the story like not getting boarded and needing remedial academic credit. Otherwise... :slap:

Yeah, I don't know the ins and outs of that story . . . just that the person was in practice and left for the fellowship and now is going back (don't know if the the person is returning to the same private practice place or not)


Doing forensics, I have no doubt they would easily land a job as the demand is high, relative to other fellowships in pathology.

That's probably a safe bet.


First person isn't going to benefit from the extra neuromuscular pathology exposure in a peds fellowship as it's not gonna help them sign-out deaths due to drug overdoses or gunshot wounds. They could easily have done this without the extra year of training.

The other issue with this person is that, even though this person was AP only, this person made the switch from AP/CP a little late in residency. Thus, by the time this person was ready for the forensics fellowship, this person still lacked some AP rotation time for board eligibility. So, it made sense for him/her, as long as he/she was going to have to come back post-fellowship, to go ahead and do another subspecialty AP fellowship that would also help towards getting AP board eligibility.


Second person most likely found a dry market with peds outside of academia. Surprising they landed a job in private practice with this background. We had a resident from my program who also did a second year of a peds fellowship because they wanted to stay local and options were limited with that kind of training in a small market.

We actually had another peds fellow a couple of years ago who landed a private practice job doing nothing but peds. I heard it was in a 3-person group of pediatric pathologists.
 
Second person most likely found a dry market with peds outside of academia. Surprising they landed a job in private practice with this background. We had a resident from my program who also did a second year of a peds fellowship because they wanted to stay local and options were limited with that kind of training in a small market.

I am the peds path fellow that you are referring to. I went on several academic interviews before finding a really good private practice job doing just peds last April. However, they didn't want me to start till Feb 2013 because of when the senior pathologist was retiring. This actually worked out really well for me as I was pregnant at the time and due in late July. I did an extra 6 months of fellowship to bridge the gap in time. I will say the job market for peds path seems really tough right now, but I am really happy that I was able to find an awesome job.
 
I am the peds path fellow that you are referring to. I went on several academic interviews before finding a really good private practice job doing just peds last April. However, they didn't want me to start till Feb 2013 because of when the senior pathologist was retiring. This actually worked out really well for me as I was pregnant at the time and due in late July. I did an extra 6 months of fellowship to bridge the gap in time. I will say the job market for peds path seems really tough right now, but I am really happy that I was able to find an awesome job.

Very nice. Glad to hear things are going well for you!
 
Now is near the end of the academic year and let's do a poll of the job status at your institution.

I will begin with my institution, a medium-sized program.

2 Surgpath fellows, both going for subspecialty fellowships
1 GI fellow, in-office lab

are they salaried? Or are they getting paid a % for every 88305 for example? If the latter, that is a darn sweet gig.

Fiance's group has been doing the latter, but are thinking of moving to the former. Apparently they have such volume(and such an efficient operation) that the contracted out in office path is on pace to make > 250k(even only getting like 35% on average of the pc and none of the tc). Makes more sense for the group to make it a salaried position, pay liuke 175k(and it will be still be filled without any problems), and pocket the rest.....

I know that the IOP who now has the contract with this group is very happy and that there are a bunch of other people who would do her job right now if it came open. It would stay open for about 5 seconds.
 
I flirted with pathology in med school and did a path elective - 2 weeks surg path, 1 week neuro path, 1 week heme path. All the residents were planning on doing 2 fellowships, and it became frighteningly clear that this was the growing norm. That's when I said "See ya!"
 
I flirted with pathology in med school and did a path elective - 2 weeks surg path, 1 week neuro path, 1 week heme path. All the residents were planning on doing 2 fellowships, and it became frighteningly clear that this was the growing norm. That's when I said "See ya!"


I had an ‘a-ha’ moment like that in med school when I was doing my OB rotation. I was delivering a baby and the mom simultaneously pushed out a log about twice the size of the kid. I would’ve felt guilty for the rest of my life if that kid grew up to be a sanitation worker because of his first childhood experience and that’s when I said “See-ya” as well…
 
I flirted with pathology in med school and did a path elective - 2 weeks surg path, 1 week neuro path, 1 week heme path. All the residents were planning on doing 2 fellowships, and it became frighteningly clear that this was the growing norm. That's when I said "See ya!"
Smart decision. It took me 6 months of residency to come to the same conclusion.
 
I had an ‘a-ha’ moment like that in med school when I was doing my OB rotation. I was delivering a baby and the mom simultaneously pushed out a log about twice the size of the kid. I would’ve felt guilty for the rest of my life if that kid grew up to be a sanitation worker because of his first childhood experience and that’s when I said “See-ya” as well…

So you decided running autopsy bowel and opening dead bowel was more pleasant?
 
Touche...but an odorous obligation endured through residency knowing that it rarely occurs in practice outside of going into forensics.

If I was an OB, I would advise a pre-labor enema and a brazilian wax, especially if they wanted their husband to watch the baby drop and still be stimulated by that part of her anatomy in the future.

If should wouldn't go for that, I would advise the husband to stay north of the equator throughout the labor.
 
If I was an OB, I would advise a pre-labor enema and a brazilian wax, especially if they wanted their husband to watch the baby drop and still be stimulated by that part of her anatomy in the future.

New form of birth control? Could help China enforce the one child per couple limit maybe...

If should wouldn't go for that, I would advise the husband to stay north of the equator throughout the labor.

Opposite effect from above if population is declining. This might be useful in rust belt cities like Cleveland, Detroit, and Buffalo...
 
The other issue with this person is that, even though this person was AP only, this person made the switch from AP/CP a little late in residency. Thus, by the time this person was ready for the forensics fellowship, this person still lacked some AP rotation time for board eligibility. So, it made sense for him/her, as long as he/she was going to have to come back post-fellowship, to go ahead and do another subspecialty AP fellowship that would also help towards getting AP board eligibility.


We actually had another peds fellow a couple of years ago who landed a private practice job doing nothing but peds. I heard it was in a 3-person group of pediatric pathologists.


If he is just filling time toward his AP board eligibility, then he won't be eligible for the pedi path boards. You can't double dip.
 
So you quit residency??? All your biatching here about the job market- and you're just a whiny first year resident?????
Not at all whiny. Just taking account of the future, its called foresight. There is absolutely no point to toil in a residency with such a poor jobs outlook. I'm just making a better career decision for the future. Way more opportunities and flexibility on the other side of the microscope.
 
If he is just filling time toward his AP board eligibility, then he won't be eligible for the pedi path boards. You can't double dip.


Not 100% sure about the whole situation. This fellow may be staying through September or whenever in order to be eligible for the Pedipath boards.
 
What is wrong with doing two fellowships each of one year? That makes total of 6 years of training. My brother went Med-peds residency of 4 years, then did adult pulmonology fellowship for two years, and now he plans to do 1 year of adult critical care fellowship...so he will likely be spending atleast 7 years in training.
 
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If I was an OB, I would advise a pre-labor enema and a brazilian wax, especially if they wanted their husband to watch the baby drop and still be stimulated by that part of her anatomy in the future.

If should wouldn't go for that, I would advise the husband to stay north of the equator throughout the labor.

Given the absolute horror I witnessed as women p*ss and **** themselves during the labour process I had say that's very sound advice. Honestly I just don't want to be any part of this process. So once I've had all my mandatory births done I am out of there.

I never liked babies. Actually watching and helping deliver them reinforced this.
 
What is wrong with doing two fellowships each of one year? That makes total of 6 years of training. My brother went Med-peds residency of 4 years, then did adult pulmonology fellowship for two years, and now he plans to do 1 year of adult critical care fellowship...so he will likely be spending atleast 7 years in training.

How often do you see people like your brother? If you compare to most specialties, like IM, FM, gen Sug, they finish their residencies and get jobs. Hospitalists do not make less than pathologists now. 3 years and straight to jobs and there are plenty of jobs.

It is not uncommon to see pathology people do 7 years or more of training and still do not have a decent job, being forced to take an instructor position or becoming a locum person.

It seems you don't have too much experience in the field and in medicine in general.
 
At my institution, a big program in northeast,

3 surgpath fellows, one has an academic job lined up, one is doing a second year subspecialty, one is still looking

3 cyto fellows, two have offers now, one is doing a surgpath fellowship

2 heme fellows, one staying for a second year (research) (previously did a surgpath fellowship), one found a community practice job (previously finished a surgpath fellowship)

1 transfusion medicine fellow, still looking for jobs

1 molecular genetic fellow, doing surgpath fellowship next year

2 neuropath fellows, both staying for research (looking for positions)

1 GI/liver fellow, staying as a junior faculty
 
It is not uncommon to see pathology people do 7 years or more of training and still do not have a decent job, being forced to take an instructor position or becoming a locum person.
.

Actually, that is uncommon.

6 years of training is not uncommon.
 
How often do you see people like your brother? If you compare to most specialties, like IM, FM, gen Sug, they finish their residencies and get jobs. Hospitalists do not make less than pathologists now. 3 years and straight to jobs and there are plenty of jobs.

It is not uncommon to see pathology people do 7 years or more of training and still do not have a decent job, being forced to take an instructor position or becoming a locum person.

It seems you don't have too much experience in the field and in medicine in general.
You are right. I don't have much experience, but i have a lot of my relatives in medicine and all of them including me are IMGs. I will be starting my residency in pathology in July. Hospitalists make 175K per year and they stay at that pay unless they do some fellowship. On the contrary, if a pathologist does two or three fellowship he will start at 175K but there will be a potential of growth as years pass by..And do not talk about general surgery.. My second brother did two years of preliminary surgery and then started his categorical surgery of 6 years. He is PGY1 now. So he will be spending 8 years in residency alone.
 
You are right. I don't have much experience, but i have a lot of my relatives in medicine and all of them including me are IMGs. I will be starting my residency in pathology in July. Hospitalists make 175K per year and they stay at that pay unless they do some fellowship. On the contrary, if a pathologist does two or three fellowship he will start at 175K but there will be a potential of growth as years pass by..And do not talk about general surgery.. My second brother did two years of preliminary surgery and then started his categorical surgery of 6 years. He is PGY1 now. So he will be spending 8 years in residency alone.

Your perspective is limited to those with poor prospects to begin with and therefore is not really relevant to US grads.
 
Your perspective is limited to those with poor prospects to begin with and therefore is not really relevant to US grads.
I think you are still a medical student and know nothing about practical life. Even US medical grads spend 5-6 years in general surgical residency. IMGs do not have poor prospects and I am living example of that...failed my CS but still got into decent university program...My elder brother is going to Mayo clinic to do his fellowship. Can you let me know about his prospects?...I think you need to score a residency first and then come to this forum.
 
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hows the dermpath market ? can you get away with doing just a dermpath fellowship or most still want you to have done 2?
 
I think the dermpath job market is better than most other areas in path, although still not great. I've heard that dermpath fellows are having to take jobs with general path sign-out rather than exclusive dermpath sign-out. Unlike most other path training programs though, fellowship directors are responding by cutting training positions.

In spite of these issues with the job market, I know three path trained dermpath fellows who've obtained jobs in the last year with only one fellowship each (two academic jobs and one military) and I recently received a good private-practice dermpath-only job offer, through networking, that I am pretty excited about.
 
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I'll add mine. I'm not sure about a couple fellows I really don't interact with, but among those I do:

2 cytopath: 1 academic, 1 private

4 surg path: 1 academic, 1 private, 1 second fellowship (planned), 1 second fellowship (unplanned)

The two who got academic jobs were looking for academic jobs.
 
1 cyto fellow - local private practice job

1 bb/transfusion fellow - academic job (I think they had a pre-arranged deal to go back and work where they did their residency after finishing the fellowship)

2 hemepath fellows
- 1 did prior surg path fellowship and is taking a job in Canada (not sure if academic/private, I know it is NOT hemepath only)
- 1 will be doing a planned second fellowship in surg path

1 chemistry fellow (the position is for MDs, not PhDs) - not sure. The last fellow we had (year before last) got a good lab director position in academics.

We are cutting one of our hemepath fellowship spots. The decision was imposed on the department by the hospital GME office (I think our system has a bunch of unfunded spots in some of the other fields, like IM or something, and they are trying to save some money), however, and has nothing to do with the hemepath job market or our specimen volumes or anything.
 
NCCN Cancer Center

5 Surg Path Fellows (three with previous fellowships = Neuropath, Soft tissue path, and Hemepath): 1 got an academic job, 2 are doing subspecialty fellowships next year (1 not planned), 2 are without jobs as of now (June)

1 Cytopath Fellow (with previous Surg Path): Private practice, non-partner track


The job market is great :rolleyes:
 
NCCN Cancer Center

5 Surg Path Fellows (three with previous fellowships = Neuropath, Soft tissue path, and Hemepath): 1 got an academic job, 2 are doing subspecialty fellowships next year (1 not planned), 2 are without jobs as of now (June)

1 Cytopath Fellow (with previous Surg Path): Private practice, non-partner track


The job market is great :rolleyes:

What is the "backup plan" for the two fellows still without jobs?
 
Well 1 is fortunate to have a physician spouse who is in practice. This 1 will have the ability to float while continuing to look for a job.

The other...theres no back plan...pray? Even fellowships are taken at this point. Sadly this person has AP/CP certification, previously done a Heme path fellowhsip, HP board certification...and has now done a Surg Path fellowship....no job.
 
NCCN Cancer Center

5 Surg Path Fellows (three with previous fellowships = Neuropath, Soft tissue path, and Hemepath): 1 got an academic job, 2 are doing subspecialty fellowships next year (1 not planned), 2 are without jobs as of now (June)

1 Cytopath Fellow (with previous Surg Path): Private practice, non-partner track


The job market is great :rolleyes:

That is hilarious. Let's notify the CAP leaders to cry for more residency spots to cope with the coming shortage of pathologists.
 
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Not at all whiny. Just taking account of the future, its called foresight. There is absolutely no point to toil in a residency with such a poor jobs outlook. I'm just making a better career decision for the future. Way more opportunities and flexibility on the other side of the microscope.

Meat,

What field are you going into instead?
 
1 surgpath - academic job

1 cytopath - surgpath fellowship

3 hemepath - two got academic jobs, one staying back for Mol Path fellowship
 
I'll repeat my oft-used line, but there are nowhere near enough forensic pathologists in North America, and the fellowship slots never fill. The pay (in the US) isn't knock-your-socks-off, but there's ultimate job security (there will always be cases that fall under ME/C jurisdiction) and I know of zero FP fellows who've been unable to find a job somewhere, even those who can't boarded. Just something to think about... a decomp autopsy and a paycheck beats knowing all the sarcoma translocations and no job.
 
MLW03, can you tell us about the job market in Canada for surgpath and subspecialties. Do foreign grads (non-US and non-Canadian grads) with AP/CP certification have any difficulty getting licensed to work in Canada as far as you know?
 
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