Job situation in path

[juddson]

So what's the skinny on the job situation in Path in the US? Interested in getting some a un-sugar coated account from people currently looking or will be looking for work in the coming year. During my hemepath elective, I heard what I consider sobering news about the market. I've expressed concern here before, but I'm hoping to get some more concrete information?

Judd

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[LADoc00]

So what's the skinny on the job situation in Path in the US? Interested in getting some a un-sugar coated account from people currently looking or will be looking for work in the coming year. During my hemepath elective, I heard what I consider sobering news about the market. I've expressed concern here before, but I'm hoping to get some more concrete information?

Judd

There are several threads on this. Essentially there are two camps: Academics and everyone else.

Academics like Fred **** will continue to profess a strong job market similar to the manner the National Association of Realtors take ads out on the "bright spots" in the housing market. It is in their best interest to sell pathology to med students just as it is in the best interest of realtors to sell houses.

Everyone else sees declining reimbursements, increasing caseload and an overall decreasing quality of life. Pathology maybe more than the average speciality is getting absorbed into large corporate businesses where the docs get paid a fraction of their billings and the rest are funneled into corporate coffers.


G'luck

 

[Jiminy Cricket]

There are several threads on this. Essentially there are two camps: Academics and everyone else.

Academics like Fred Silva will continue to profess a strong job market similar to the manner the National Association of Realtors take ads out on the "bright spots" in the housing market. It is in their best interest to sell pathology to med students just as it is in the best interest of realtors to sell houses.

Everyone else sees declining reimbursements, increasing caseload and an overall decreasing quality of life. Pathology maybe more than the average speciality is getting absorbed into large corporate businesses where the docs get paid a fraction of their billings and the rest are funneled into corporate coffers.


G'luck

so how difficult would it be for a business minded Path to start one of these businesses? would you necessarily need a MBA? i'm guessing the money in owning a huge lab would be far in excess of what most docs make.

 

[LADoc00]

so how difficult would it be for a business minded Path to start one of these businesses? would you necessarily need a MBA? i'm guessing the money in owning a huge lab would be far in excess of what most docs make.

Well we are talking about first off having access to a huge amount of capital. If you had such capital, you might be better off in the bond market or doing something like commercial property. Starting a business is time consuming, pricey and far FAR excess of any stress you might have had so far in your training. One surgeon summed it up the best to me, starting a biz is far more difficult than any residency or fellowship.

 

[quant]

Well we are talking about first off having access to a huge amount of capital. If you had such capital, you might be better off in the bond market or doing something like commercial property. Starting a business is time consuming, pricey and far FAR excess of any stress you might have had so far in your training. One surgeon summed it up the best to me, starting a biz is far more difficult than any residency or fellowship.

I would agree...

If you had that kind of capital, it would be far more prudent to invest it in something else.(Make the other dummies work to make you money, it is the biggest secret of any hugely successful business)

On the other hand, the only way you could lay your hands on such kind of capital would be if you proposed to START such a business and get the aforesaid money from a financial institution.

So its a kind of catch-22 situation for someone wanting to start new.

 

[LADoc00]

Job situation AND income outlook in path:

 

[yaah]

As I have said, all I know is that people in our program continue to get jobs that they think are good and sound good (i.e. 12 weeks vacation, good salary, etc)- both in private and academia. And we are getting an increasing number (over the last two years) of job ads through people in the program.

I haven't experienced things first hand however.

 

[juddson]

As I have said, all I know is that people in our program continue to get jobs that they think are good and sound good (i.e. 12 weeks vacation, good salary, etc)- both in private and academia. And we are getting an increasing number (over the last two years) of job ads through people in the program.

I haven't experienced things first hand however.

And what, might I ask, are the sorts of offers these folks are getting. Surely you have an idea.

Judd

 

[Jiminy Cricket]

I would agree...

If you had that kind of capital, it would be far more prudent to invest it in something else.(Make the other dummies work to make you money, it is the biggest secret of any hugely successful business)

On the other hand, the only way you could lay your hands on such kind of capital would be if you proposed to START such a business and get the aforesaid money from a financial institution.

So its a kind of catch-22 situation for someone wanting to start new.

speaking of investing, couldnt you hypothetically day trade inbetween doing the lab work in Path.....another bonus of Path....also isnt there a decent amt of down time as in Anesthesia, or am i wrong.

path is a hidden gem in the rocks

 

[pathstudent]

As stated here over and over again, a lot of people go into path because they hate clinical medicine or hate seeing patients, but to those that haven't already decided and can find a rewarding life in clinical medicine, I would highly suggest going the surgical subspecialty route or one of the interventional med routes such as cards or gastroenterology. Those guys are opening their own surgery centers, specialty hospitals, and even opening their own histo labs and hiring their own pathologists to make even more money of those services. Neurosurgeons and orthopedic surgeons even make money for just agreeing to take call. 1000-2000 per night just for being available, even if they don't get a call. If they do, then they get an additional case and make even more.

All physicians are feeling the squeeze but some are more in the driver seat than others.

However, if you would only be happy doing path, then nothing else makes sense.

 

[Jiminy Cricket]

As stated here over and over again, a lot of people go into path because they hate clinical medicine or hate seeing patients, but to those that haven't already decided and can find a rewarding life in clinical medicine, I would highly suggest going the surgical subspecialty route or one of the interventional med routes such as cards or gastroenterology. Those guys are opening their own surgery centers, specialty hospitals, and even opening their own histo labs and hiring their own pathologists to make even more money of those services. Neurosurgeons and orthopedic surgeons even make money for just agreeing to take call. 1000-2000 per night just for being available, even if they don't get a call. If they do, then they get an additional case and make even more.

All physicians are feeling the squeeze but some are more in the driver seat than others.

However, if you would only be happy doing path, then nothing else makes sense.

bottom line, do what you love, there's ways to make money in everything, one life to live

 

[pathstudent]

bottom line, do what you love, there's ways to make money in everything, one life to live

I would love to be a touring professional golfer.

 

[Gut Shot]

And what, might I ask, are the sorts of offers these folks are getting. Surely you have an idea.

I know some details about two of our former fellows who are practicing. One starts somewhere in the low 200's and climbs to the low 300's after three years. Partnership track, reasonable buy-in. She did a surg path fellowship and then a cytology fellowship, although her job is almost all surg path.

The other had a much lower start (low 100's) but will climb to upper 200's/low 300's in 3-5 years. Also partnership track, and only a 5K buy-in. He just did a cytology fellowship, and is doing a lot of it.

Both are practicing in small cities with a reasonable cost of living. Not San Francisco or Boston, but not the sticks. One is within an hour of a major city, the other is within two hours.

 

[juddson]

I know some details about two of our former fellows who are practicing. One starts somewhere in the low 200's and climbs to the low 300's after three years. Partnership track, reasonable buy-in. She did a surg path fellowship and then a cytology fellowship, although her job is almost all surg path.

The other had a much lower start (low 100's) but will climb to upper 200's/low 300's in 3-5 years. Also partnership track, and only a 5K buy-in. He just did a cytology fellowship, and is doing a lot of it.

Both are practicing in small cities with a reasonable cost of living. Not San Francisco or Boston, but not the sticks. One is within an hour of a major city, the other is within two hours.

Frankly, starting in the low 100's after 5 years of post-graduate training is an obscenity . . .

Judd

 

[Gut Shot]

Frankly, starting in the low 100's after 5 years of post-graduate training is an obscenity . . .

Judd

Perhaps, but a 5K buy-in is almost unheard of. Besides, his salary schedule is quite steep. I think he'll break 200K in his second year.

 

[deleted113029]

Frankly, starting in the low 100's after 5 years of post-graduate training is an obscenity . . .

Judd

For the last time, just become a ***** if you wanna make some money. If you don't love what you do, then just love doing it. Some ****** make 1-2K/night and that most definitely will cover your HAART therapy.

 

[juddson]

For the last time, just become a ***** if you wanna make some money. If you don't love what you do, then just love doing it. Some ****** make 1-2K/night and that most definitely will cover your HAART therapy.

I confess that I don't understand what the hell this means - and I gather there are plenty on this board that don't understand it either. Insisting up and down until you're blue in the face that a job well done is reward enough doesn't cut it when the economic realities of the market-place are threatening the financial viability of the profession. Insisting on fair compensation for what is among the most highly skilled (and valued) jobs in the world is not being a "*****".

Nobody here is suggesting that one ought to go into field X or Y simply because it makes a ton of money. But if you think that choosing a field of practice without some attention to the economic calculations makes good sense, you are mistaken. I don't care if you dream in the buttery hues of H&E, not even you would work in the field if it paid like a school teacher.

Judd

 

[deleted113029]

I confess that I don't understand what the hell this means - and I gather there are plenty on this board that don't understand it either. Insisting up and down until you're blue in the face that a job well done is reward enough doesn't cut it when the economic realities of the market-place are threatening the financial viability of the profession. Insisting on fair compensation for what is among the most highly skilled (and valued) jobs in the world is not being a "*****".

Nobody here is suggesting that one ought to go into field X or Y simply because it makes a ton of money. But if you think that choosing a field of practice without some attention to the economic calculations makes good sense, you are mistaken. I don't care if you dream in the buttery hues of H&E, not even you would work in the field if it paid like a school teacher.

Judd

3 words: Beverly Hills Hooker

 

[sinaility]

I confess that I don't understand what the hell this means - and I gather there are plenty on this board that don't understand it either. Insisting up and down until you're blue in the face that a job well done is reward enough doesn't cut it when the economic realities of the market-place are threatening the financial viability of the profession. Insisting on fair compensation for what is among the most highly skilled (and valued) jobs in the world is not being a "*****".

Nobody here is suggesting that one ought to go into field X or Y simply because it makes a ton of money. But if you think that choosing a field of practice without some attention to the economic calculations makes good sense, you are mistaken. I don't care if you dream in the buttery hues of H&E, not even you would work in the field if it paid like a school teacher.

Judd

One of our residents from last year, who did a subspecialty fellowship, is working in a private lab in NY starting around $250 with a $50k signing and relocation bonus. The others went into academics (obviously less $$) or Medical Examiners (obviously less $$). A lot of these private labs aren't that bad. Historically, when these labs were run by M.D.s, they weren't able to squeeze out any profit. Bringing in MBAs to take care of the financial side is fine by me. A certain lab here in NYC, I not going to mention the name, has over 500k specimens a year and was losing money until the BIG Corporation came in to tighten down the leaky bolts. Big corporate labs still give complete professional control to the physicians (hiring, firing, vacation, other administrative aspects). Personally, I don't want to front the cash to the equipment, have to balance the books, or bill the insurance company 5 times to get full reimbursement. Alot of these big labs still operate like private practices. They are the ones recruiting new accounts. Now granted it sucks to have to compromise with a corporation, but I don't think it is all negatives. Like everything, there are pro's and con's to everything.

Bottomline, if you have a solid path background, getting a high paying job in a private lab is not that hard to get. Just don't do a fellowship in neuro or peds. Reading a ton of cases making over $200k with nothing else to worry about sounds great to me if you are looking at private practice. Now the attraction of academia is a whole different story. Granted I'm presently writing up probably 20k cases a year myself and only making $50k in NYC. I'm happy as hell right now.

 

[Cabbage Head]

Everyone is fighting over the Pathology pie, but at least there's some pie to fight for. Think about peds or OB. I once had an OB resident almost break down in tears and slap me in the face when I said it wasn't hard to break 200k in path.

 

[BU Pathology]

There are currently 154 jobs for pathologists listed on this website

http://jobs.modernpathology.org/js....y&qDate=&pp=20&fromSearch.x=21&fromSearch.y=5

or if that link does not work go to http://www.uscap.org/ and look at the pathologyJobs link on the left hand side.

Many of these positions are at academic medical centers, and some of the listings are for fellowships. The point is that there are literally dozens of positions available in pathology today, November 29, 2006.

It would be difficult to tell any pathology resident that you can absolutely guarentee that he/she will have a position in 4 years, but the current job market for pathologists is strong and should remain that way.

One should not be discouraged from entering pathology because of fears of a poor job market, the data supports that there are, and will be, plenty of positions available.

Dan Remick
Chair of Pathology, Boston University

 

[LADoc00]

Did that guy just drop his real name?!

 

[mlw03]

Did that guy just drop his real name?!

hey, i remember some guy a few months ago who was able to figure out my real name and he posted it without my permission. i personally don't mind if people know who i am, as i've never said anything on here i wouldn't say in person. but it was still quite rude i thought, and thankfully yaah took it down.

can't contribute to the thread as i'm just an ms3 and i'm a long way from thinking about post-residency job prospects.

 

[deleted113029]

Did that guy just drop his real name?!

yup. it's not like his login name wouldn't have given it away sooner or later. i think it's kinda refreshing for a change...honesty is hard to come by these days.

 

[sara1234]

so I went to that website that lists the jobs for pathologists....i did not see alot for clinical pathology only...god....that sucks...all jobs are for anatomical/surgical.........so im going to ask the same question again.........what are the jobs that CP can get....how much money they can make whether with fellowship or not

 

[pathstudent]

I confess that I don't understand what the hell this means - and I gather there are plenty on this board that don't understand it either. Insisting up and down until you're blue in the face that a job well done is reward enough doesn't cut it when the economic realities of the market-place are threatening the financial viability of the profession. Insisting on fair compensation for what is among the most highly skilled (and valued) jobs in the world is not being a "*****".

Nobody here is suggesting that one ought to go into field X or Y simply because it makes a ton of money. But if you think that choosing a field of practice without some attention to the economic calculations makes good sense, you are mistaken. I don't care if you dream in the buttery hues of H&E, not even you would work in the field if it paid like a school teacher.

Judd

Judd,

Picking a residency/career is close to a lifelong decision, and I encourage you to walk into it with eyes wide open.

I have friends in E Med who went into it because they thought they loved it, but now it kills them that they could have done Gas or interventional rads and made twice to four times as much respectively.

There is a massive discrepancy in pay between all the fields of mecidine. You might love A and really really like B, but B might compensate twice as much as A. So, depending on other factors, like marriage, kids, desires for kids' futures, and other intangibles, doing something you really really like might be better than doing something you love.

 

[pathstudent]

so I went to that website that lists the jobs for pathologists....i did not see alot for clinical pathology only...god....that sucks...all jobs are for anatomical/surgical.........so im going to ask the same question again.........what are the jobs that CP can get....how much money they can make whether with fellowship or not

Doing CP only only makes sense if you want to be a basic scientist to me.

 

[sara1234]

well I have a PhD and im escaping from the basic research to something more exciting..I figured CP is a good choice since it is 3 years instead of 4...you have a variety of fellowship that you can do..personally I like hematopath or immunopath and you could do this with CP..correct me if Im wrong ..doing hematopath increase the chance for CP to get a job...im not interested in basic science cauz you could spend monthes doing something then you discover it is all wrong or negative....that is the reserach 101 ..some people find that exciting since if they got positive results that will be encouraging but for me Im out of this game...Im interested more diagnostic stuff....the patient either has the disease or not.....or the sample is not prepared well..lol...apart from univ.hospitals and academia what is the chance of a private bussiness hiring CP only or pharmaceutical companies or private hospitals....do you think they can make more than 150K....IM kinda started to get worried about this....by the way do all CP in univ hospitals conduct some kind of reserach or they can work only for diagnostic stuff....

 

[BU Pathology]

The question of CP only or AP only training and future career options comes up frequently. If one is trained in both AP and CP there is a wider range of positions available, from working solo in a community hospital to academic positions.

The most common training that people take is:
CP plus AP >>> AP only >> CP only

However, many positions exist for those trained only in AP or only in CP, and these jobs are in private practice, industry, and academics. Some specific examples, if you are doing hematopathology and are only trained in CP opportunities exist from larger group practices to academics. While at the my former institution we spent years, literally, attempting to recruit a heme person. Here at BU we are actively recruiting for a heme person. Many group practices will recruit people trained in AP only to specifically help with the surgical pathology load.

Salaries will vary greatly depending on the geography, type of practice, group dynamics of the practice etc.

The take home message (i.e. teachable moment):
Many positions exist in pathology.
No one should fear entering the field because good jobs will not be available.

And yes, I did include my name and location. It is entirely appropriate that people post and discuss without revealing their identity. However, if I am going to effectively communicate as a Chair it should not be done anonymously.

Dan Remick
Chair of Pathology Boston University

 

[pathstudent]

well I have a PhD and im escaping from the basic research to something more exciting..I figured CP is a good choice since it is 3 years instead of 4...you have a variety of fellowship that you can do..personally I like hematopath or immunopath and you could do this with CP..correct me if Im wrong ..doing hematopath increase the chance for CP to get a job...im not interested in basic science cauz you could spend monthes doing something then you discover it is all wrong or negative....that is the reserach 101 ..some people find that exciting since if they got positive results that will be encouraging but for me Im out of this game...Im interested more diagnostic stuff....the patient either has the disease or not.....or the sample is not prepared well..lol...apart from univ.hospitals and academia what is the chance of a private bussiness hiring CP only or pharmaceutical companies or private hospitals....do you think they can make more than 150K....IM kinda started to get worried about this....by the way do all CP in univ hospitals conduct some kind of reserach or they can work only for diagnostic stuff....

I know CP faculty that only do pretty much 100% clinical work in the blood bank and in hemepath.

I bet you could easily get a job in a flow cytometry reference lab or at in any of the cp depts. in a university being CP only.

There are probably lots of jobs "outside the box" for a CP only person in bio-pharm and bio-tech.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

yup. it's not like his login name wouldn't have given it away sooner or later. i think it's kinda refreshing for a change...honesty is hard to come by these days.

Yes. Nothing wrong with revealing one's identity. Agreed that it is refreshing. Nothing wrong with anonymity either. Who really cares anyway?

Some people have the guts to sac up and take responsibility for their statements. Dat is good.