Jobs in academic institutions
Started by Hellothere111
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You don't have to be funded to be hired at an academic institution. It depends on your track, and the needs of the department. Certainly if you want to be a clinician-scientist, you need to have a track record and a clear path forward that would make a Chair want to give you a startup package, which usually includes funding, space, and resources to start your lab for a few years, usually 3, with the expectation that you will then use that startup to build yourself up to a career development or career award using either NIH or foundational sources. But many don't have the opportunity to start off with Foundation funding or anything. Those that do are very easy to hire, though.
But even in academia, someone needs to see the patients. If you fit a clinical niche, like NeuroID, that the department is interested in filling, then you'll be considered. Usually this applies to people who have trained under that same organization. But even in a larger division like stroke, if they need a new person to staff a clinic, or run a service, or start a telemedicine program, they look to their trainees and their networks to fill those roles. The idea that most people in an academic department are NIH funded investigators is a common misconception. Most are not, and many of the ones that are, you never see because they are PhDs who don't see patients and work in some big research building that might not even be on the main campus.
At the end of the day, it's about whether or not you're a rock star scientist, who you know, whether people like you, and whether there are spots currently available.
But even in academia, someone needs to see the patients. If you fit a clinical niche, like NeuroID, that the department is interested in filling, then you'll be considered. Usually this applies to people who have trained under that same organization. But even in a larger division like stroke, if they need a new person to staff a clinic, or run a service, or start a telemedicine program, they look to their trainees and their networks to fill those roles. The idea that most people in an academic department are NIH funded investigators is a common misconception. Most are not, and many of the ones that are, you never see because they are PhDs who don't see patients and work in some big research building that might not even be on the main campus.
At the end of the day, it's about whether or not you're a rock star scientist, who you know, whether people like you, and whether there are spots currently available.
I would just add that if you want to go into academics it's best to try to make yourself marketable both from a clinical and a research standpoint. It's almost impossible to get an academic job as a general neurologist unless you already have a very strong research track record. Best to do fellowship in a neurologic subspecialty right after your residency, preferably at a reputable place. A fellowship that includes a year or 2 of research after the clinical year is even better. If you find a real niche clinical area you can often get hired on without any research activities, but the institution would have to need someone in that role.
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Thank you. Following up on the last comment, what factors would you keep in mind while deciding on a fellowship program in your field of interest? Jobs are almost impossible to predict. And the powerhouse academic centers have faculty who look to fellows to help with their research, so fellow might not get enough of his own research in. Would you pick a bigger name over a place which has more resources for fellow driven research (assuming you have to pick one)?
I understand this is a broad/ perhaps too general a question. Just trying to get some insight. I apply for fellowships soon.
I understand this is a broad/ perhaps too general a question. Just trying to get some insight. I apply for fellowships soon.
Fellowships are incredibly short, and you never get done as much as you think and hope you will. You can hope to carve out a little niche, or at least preliminary data towards a niche, but getting "your own research" set up takes a lot of lead time. So think about what people are doing for research when you plan your fellowship out, and try to ask about projects that support the faculty research thrust while introducing a new direction for you. In my opinion, the best resource for fellow-driven research is faculty with a lot of experience and activity in research. You don't have to be their scut monkey, but working data they've worked hard to acquire, or research infrastructure they've already paid for, benefits you both. Unless you've already got an established research direction from your PhD or an R25 or something, you are going to leave fellowship with a very nascent research track record anyway. It's too tall an order to know enough about your new field to come up with a research program that (1) matters, and (2) has legs, and (3) is in line with NINDS goals, while simultaneously juggling clinical education and getting your research operation off the ground. Going after some relatively lower hanging fruit set up by your faculty members is a great way to learn on the job and shape the questions you want to devote your career to answering. Even if all you learn in fellowship is a new method (spectral analysis, patch-clamp, CRISPR-Cas9) in a faculty lab, that is something you can take forward and apply to your own work down the road.
When you look at fellowships, look at where people go afterwards. What's the program's track record? Who are they, and can you find them all over PubMed? Some of the places that offer all of these fellowship resources like big blocks of time off, "patient registries", and didactic educational programming do so because they don't actually have much in the way of research chops and they're trying to address the problem. Research is really hard, and you need good mentorship or you'll never get off the ground, no matter how much free time you have for "research".
I came out of residency fairly green from a research perspective. Couple of papers, no obvious direction. Joined a facuty member's lab in fellowship. Worked with the data generated by that lab, in research directions largely dictated by the needs of the PI. By the end of two years, I had a bunch of papers that established my name in the field in general, and the beginnings of a research question that was complementary but distinct from my PI's. Yada yada yada, a bunch of grants later and I'm a tenure track clinician scientist at a particular hospital in Boston. The system works, as long as you can find the right people to guide your path.
When you look at fellowships, look at where people go afterwards. What's the program's track record? Who are they, and can you find them all over PubMed? Some of the places that offer all of these fellowship resources like big blocks of time off, "patient registries", and didactic educational programming do so because they don't actually have much in the way of research chops and they're trying to address the problem. Research is really hard, and you need good mentorship or you'll never get off the ground, no matter how much free time you have for "research".
I came out of residency fairly green from a research perspective. Couple of papers, no obvious direction. Joined a facuty member's lab in fellowship. Worked with the data generated by that lab, in research directions largely dictated by the needs of the PI. By the end of two years, I had a bunch of papers that established my name in the field in general, and the beginnings of a research question that was complementary but distinct from my PI's. Yada yada yada, a bunch of grants later and I'm a tenure track clinician scientist at a particular hospital in Boston. The system works, as long as you can find the right people to guide your path.
The bigger name places are also the places with more opportunities for fellow driven research. It's not an either or. They have more faculty to mentor you as you pursue your own research and more data on hand for you to write up as you try to get your feet under you. Keep in mind that the big name places are different for each subspecialty. In stroke for example Cincy is probably the biggest name, but they are not considered a powerhouse for most other neurologic subspecialties. It's true that you might be busier during your clinical year at a large program, but you should be able to focus after that. In my experience not that many fellows get scutted out to help with their mentor's research - things like scheduling and conducting followup visits / assessments. Maybe a few to several hours a week, but not a significant chunk of your time.
Agreed. You should really look at those mentored projects as a great opportunity for you, rather than getting in the way of your own research agenda. If you were in my fellowship and wanted to work with me, I would sit down with you and find out what you think is interesting and where you want to be in 5 years, and we would come up with a project together that leveraged my established resources to start heading in the direction you want to go. Most of us have more work to do than people to do it, so once I've met with you I've probably got a pair of shoes that match your feet in some way. No offense, but most residents know nothing about what's workable and what's not, and what ideas will capture an audience and which ones are meh. We spend the first third of our careers getting shot down so that we learn how to hone ideas into digestible units, and our job is to pass that on to you. I can hire coordinators or get visiting students to churn through primary data for me. As a fellow you should be mostly past that, aside from a few political duties you won't be able to get away from, like outcome clinics or work on a longstanding registry, or enrolling patients in trials. But even that has advantages for your future.
Thank you. Insight like this is invaluable. Certainly helps put things in perspective and would hopefully help me choose better.
That's literally all I'm here for.
