Joint Program?

[nblarson]

I currently have a BS in Mathematics/Statistics with an emphasis in biological and biomedical applications and will soon be attending a top tier university in my field under a massive NSF-IGERT grant studying statistics and computational biology. Buuuutt...the more I've been thinking about it, the more I really want to engage in biomedical areas, and see my strong research background as a statistician to be a great start towards a career as a medical scientist. The school I'll be attending has a great faculty and strong presence in genomic and proteomic research, but the majority is non-medical, and I find myself becoming disinterested in this prospect more and more. I've been looking around at a few MD/PHD options with collaborative departments in biostats, epi, and genetics (my specialty) as prime candidates if I were to choose such a path.

Of course, while I had a pretty intensive biological background for a math nerd, and I did well in those classes, I still would have to catch up on my organic chem and a maybe a physics course or two to wrap up the premed requirements, which would mean a bit of summer school during my program.

Now, I'm really starting to like this idea...but I feel my more...well...limited experience with regard to my medical education would put me at a disadvantage to attending a top joint program. I have amazing credentials in my field and got into nearly every school I wanted...but that's only half the puzzle, isn't it... Would a barebones prep for medical school restrict my options...or could a great MCAT score combined with remarkable accolades in the PhD component make me a desirable candidate? For example...I could easily get into John Hopkin's Biostatistics program again..but I'm sure the medical school would be a entirely different story.

Doubt is always the nag that never shuts up...I don't want to look back and think I gave up a job in medicine because I was great with numbers.

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[vtucci]

If you are interested, you should go the MD/PhD route. However, you need more than a good MCAT score for this. You will also need some ECs that are med related. Take the next year and do this or go to the best school that you got into for the PhD and do the first year while completing your med prereqs and taking the MCAT and see if you can get into the MD program of that school or an MD program at a school in the same city.

 

[relentless11]

If you are interested, you should go the MD/PhD route. However, you need more than a good MCAT score for this. You will also need some ECs that are med related. Take the next year and do this or go to the best school that you got into for the PhD and do the first year while completing your med prereqs and taking the MCAT and see if you can get into the MD program of that school or an MD program at a school in the same city.

Although I also encourage the OP to do MD/PhD if he/she so chooses, however I have to point out that it is VERY difficult to retroactively get into an MD program from a PhD program. Essentially you will have to apply like a traditional applicant, but you, your mentor, and chair of the program will probably have to make a VERY strong case that you will complete your PhD on time, or at least pass your qualifying exam on time. Additionally, research usually can't stand still, so if one is doing research, you may not be able to stop to do the med program assuming you are admitted. Med schools strongly encourage you to complete a PhD program first, or apply as MD/PhD, or do a PhD after an MD program. It is not impossible to retroactively add, but based on those factors, and many others, it is extremely difficult.

In regards to the OP, if you enter a PhD program first, and want to complete your pre-med requirements, that may also be challenging (not impossible though). Remember depending on the program, you will have to take other classes, and as stated above med schools may not even look at you unless you have at least passed the qualifying exam.

Lastly if you apply to an MSTP, then that will require a very strong application with significant research. The mean GPA for MSTP is usually 3.8, and an MCAT of 34. Most of these people also have some amount of research (usually more than a normal MD applicant). Again, I don't discourage you from doing MD/PhD, but it will certainly require more than the desire to do MD/PhD.

 

[nblarson]

Although I also encourage the OP to do MD/PhD if he/she so chooses, however I have to point out that it is VERY difficult to retroactively get into an MD program from a PhD program. Essentially you will have to apply like a traditional applicant, but you, your mentor, and chair of the program will probably have to make a VERY strong case that you will complete your PhD on time, or at least pass your qualifying exam on time. Additionally, research usually can't stand still, so if one is doing research, you may not be able to stop to do the med program assuming you are admitted. Med schools strongly encourage you to complete a PhD program first, or apply as MD/PhD, or do a PhD after an MD program. It is not impossible to retroactively add, but based on those factors, and many others, it is extremely difficult.

In regards to the OP, if you enter a PhD program first, and want to complete your pre-med requirements, that may also be challenging (not impossible though). Remember depending on the program, you will have to take other classes, and as stated above med schools may not even look at you unless you have at least passed the qualifying exam.

Lastly if you apply to an MSTP, then that will require a very strong application with significant research. The mean GPA for MSTP is usually 3.8, and an MCAT of 34. Most of these people also have some amount of research (usually more than a normal MD applicant). Again, I don't discourage you from doing MD/PhD, but it will certainly require more than the desire to do MD/PhD.

Of course...it is not merely desire to do so, I do have a strong background. I graduated magna cum laude with departmental distinction and a science GPA of 3.85, the lowest grade I ever received was a B+, a long biological research history (summer research as a VIGRE student, I interned at the WHO in Geneva working on vaccine data for UNICEF, I earned a NSF grant my senior year in my undergrad working on a year long project regarding statistical genetics), and I pretty much aced my GRE's. I'm definitely not afraid to take quite a lot on...in fact that's almost normal for me.

As for my plans for grad school, I'm currently entering a program that will put me on a lab rotation (3 separate university biological research labs at 3 months each) concurrently with my education (ranging from immunoassays to animal proteomics to HIV retroviral genomics) and could probably find solid internship opportunities, although I would most likely bow out early with a Master's before I would matriculate into a MD/PHD program. There is no med school at this institution, which is why I would change institutions and enter a different, joint program. I would like to think that my background would allow me to get a head start on the PhD component of such a pathway, but obviously transferability of credits and agreeance of course fullfilment would be a few hurdles to consider.

BTW, thanks to all who have responded, this is something that I've been putting some serious thought into but haven't had a great deal of opportunity to discuss, and any insight is most appreciated.

 

[nblarson]

The other idea that I've been kicking around is doing my Ph.D in Biostatistics at Berkeley after my MS, and concurrently doing a post-bac at UCSF, and then med school subsequent to that. That way I would have more time to build a more reputable profile as a med school applicant since I would have a vast amount of research experience by then, as well as more time to prep for the MCAT, etc.

Overly ambitious?

 

[relentless11]

The other idea that I've been kicking around is doing my Ph.D in Biostatistics at Berkeley after my MS, and concurrently doing a post-bac at UCSF, and then med school subsequent to that. That way I would have more time to build a more reputable profile as a med school applicant since I would have a vast amount of research experience by then, as well as more time to prep for the MCAT, etc.

Overly ambitious?

You won't know if you try. Shouldn't be a problem aslong as you are a CA resident. However note that the post-bacc program at UCSF is intended for people from disadvantaged backgrounds or are from underserved communities. The criteria is the standard one coined by AAMC. Additionally your GPA may be "too high". This happened to me in terms of the MCAT at UC Davis. I had a 36, and the director of admissions discouraged me from trying...which was understandable. (hence me going to grad school) You should also post questions over at the MD/PhD forums. There are a few UCSF MSTP's floating around in here too but they may not see it.

Just FYI if you are interested, last I checked (2003?), the people that go into UCSF's MSTP had a mean GPA of 3.84, and mean MCAT of 34. I believe the N = 12 (they might accept more than this though). I would speculate that the applicants were pretty close to the mean, however can't be certain without the rest of the descriptive statistics.

Anyway, just going to Cal in general, i think the big factor is being a CA resident, not sure if you're one of those. Beyond that, your GPA should be able to get you in, unless there were some other weird things they look at.

 

[nblarson]

You won't know if you try. Shouldn't be a problem aslong as you are a CA resident. However note that the post-bacc program at UCSF is intended for people from disadvantaged backgrounds or are from underserved communities. The criteria is the standard one coined by AAMC. Additionally your GPA may be "too high". This happened to me in terms of the MCAT at UC Davis. I had a 36, and the director of admissions discouraged me from trying...which was understandable. (hence me going to grad school) You should also post questions over at the MD/PhD forums. There are a few UCSF MSTP's floating around in here too but they may not see it.

Just FYI if you are interested, last I checked (2003?), the people that go into UCSF's MSTP had a mean GPA of 3.84, and mean MCAT of 34. I believe the N = 12 (they might accept more than this though). I would speculate that the applicants were pretty close to the mean, however can't be certain without the rest of the descriptive statistics.

Anyway, just going to Cal in general, i think the big factor is being a CA resident, not sure if you're one of those. Beyond that, your GPA should be able to get you in, unless there were some other weird things they look at.

Yeah, I just noticed that, was more or less considering the concept (concurrent phd/postbac) along with a school that I've already been accepted to for a Ph.D. track education. It looks like SFSU has an informal post-bacc program as well that might work.

I suppose I could also do the same thing at Hopkins (it looks like they have a decent post-bac program as well, without the underpriviledged strings to go along with it) or UCLA with a post-bacc at USC.

Thanks for the heads up on the MD/PHD forum, I'll give it a look and see if I can dig anything up.

 

[relentless11]

Yeah, I just noticed that, was more or less considering the concept (concurrent phd/postbac) along with a school that I've already been accepted to for a Ph.D. track education. It looks like SFSU has an informal post-bacc program as well that might work.

I suppose I could also do the same thing at Hopkins (it looks like they have a decent post-bac program as well, without the underpriviledged strings to go along with it) or UCLA with a post-bacc at USC.

Thanks for the heads up on the MD/PHD forum, I'll give it a look and see if I can dig anything up.

Actually, I think SFSU just started a formal post-bacc program, so you can try for that. It started this year. Should be a thread somewhere in the post-bacc forums about it. I believe UCLA also requires a disadvantaged status thing, however I have no clue about USC.