judging a match list

[yoyohomieg5432]

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so people seem to like to look at a school's match list when making decisions about what school to attend. what exactly differentiates a good match list from a bad match list? every match list i've seen tends to be the same--you get people going into a wide variety of specialties.. and typically in hospitals all around the country.

what factors do you use to decide what makes a good match list?

 

[notbobtrustme]

Strong programs in a variety of specialties.

 

[NickNaylor]

The problem with evaluating match lists is that you have no idea if it's "good" or not. How do you know that someone wanted to go to a no-name place for personal reasons or if that's the "best" place they could get into? How do you account for differences in interests among classes? How do you know that the students going into FM, peds, etc. aren't the same students that are getting AOA, crushing step 1, etc.? Better yet, how do you know that the students going into ENT, derm, plastics, etc. aren't the middle of the pack? Of course this is much less likely, but the reality is that you have no idea. Having unreliable and unverifiable data factor into your decision making process seems like a bad idea to me.

This is why trying to judge a match list is a useless endeavor. It doesn't tell you anything about the quality of the school or the school's ability to place residents in "strong residencies" (assuming you know which residencies are strong or not).

 

[repititionition]

I'm not the first to say this, but the easiest way to judge overall match success is to look at Categorical IM.

Thinking being: every class is going to have a different mix of specialties desired, so looking at one year's Ortho or ENT or Radiology or Derm doesn't help much - some graduating classes just don't have (many) people interested in a given specialty.

But EVERY class has a big enough sample of people wanting to do IM (or a further subspecialty) to be representative. You're looking for a list heavy on quality academic programs.

 

[circulus vitios]

I look at specialty matches. I don't care if it's not a good metric. When looking at some lower-ranked MD and DO schools, I really doubt that 60% of a class wants to go into FM/IM out of personal interest, the goodness of their heart, or whatever else.

 

[NickNaylor]

I look at specialty matches. I don't care if it's not a good metric. When looking at some lower-ranked MD and DO schools, I really doubt that 60% of a class wants to go into FM/IM out of personal interest, the goodness of their heart, or whatever else.

If you want to base a decision on information that tells you absolutely nothing than that certainly is your prerogative. At the end of the day no one is going to care but yourself. It's just important that people understand the limitations of that information and adjust their decision-making algorithm accordingly. There are many people that don't know any better - those are the people my other post was really aimed at.

 

[yoyohomieg5432]

I'm not the first to say this, but the easiest way to judge overall match success is to look at Categorical IM.

Thinking being: every class is going to have a different mix of specialties desired, so looking at one year's Ortho or ENT or Radiology or Derm doesn't help much - some graduating classes just don't have (many) people interested in a given specialty.

But EVERY class has a big enough sample of people wanting to do IM (or a further subspecialty) to be representative. You're looking for a list heavy on quality academic programs.

how do you know what programs are "quality"? Do you just look for the same big name schools that are also top med schools? certainly there are big name hospitals that aren't part of a med school, right?

and just because it's not a big name place why does that mean the program isn't good? Isn't surgery at one hospital pretty much the same as surgery at another? the procedures aren't really changing so it seems to me like you're getting the same kind of education--although i realize some hospitals may be more specialized in certain aspects of care.

 

[circulus vitios]

how do you know what programs are "quality"? Do you just look for the same big name schools that are also top med schools? certainly there are big name hospitals that aren't part of a med school, right?

and just because it's not a big name place why does that mean the program isn't good? Isn't surgery at one hospital pretty much the same as surgery at another? the procedures aren't really changing so it seems to me like you're getting the same kind of education--although i realize some hospitals may be more specialized in certain aspects of care.

It's kind of like med school rankings, I think. You get more or less the same education, but you have better access to research, networking, competitive fellowships, etc. I imagine that big-name programs see more exotic stuff than small or community programs.

Spend some time reading through the resident/attending forums on SDN. As I understand it, generally any university program will be mid tier at the lowest.

 

[KindofBlue]

how do you know what programs are "quality"? Do you just look for the same big name schools that are also top med schools? certainly there are big name hospitals that aren't part of a med school, right?

and just because it's not a big name place why does that mean the program isn't good? Isn't surgery at one hospital pretty much the same as surgery at another? the procedures aren't really changing so it seems to me like you're getting the same kind of education--although i realize some hospitals may be more specialized in certain aspects of care.

There was a thread on SDN about top residency spots for each specialty, although there's about as many people who approve the list as those who do not, apparently for being an impartial collection.
Most will be no-brainers (IVY league), but it should still give you some idea if you are not quite familiar with the residencies available out there.

Here's the link to the thread.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=906704

 

[mvenus929]

and just because it's not a big name place why does that mean the program isn't good? Isn't surgery at one hospital pretty much the same as surgery at another? the procedures aren't really changing so it seems to me like you're getting the same kind of education--although i realize some hospitals may be more specialized in certain aspects of care.

Exactly. Some of the best FM and EM programs are lesser known, because they don't have to compete with the well known IM and surgery programs. Depending on what your goals are when you ultimately go into residency, you may want to train at a more unopposed program, because you get to do more, and you have to figure out how to do more with less (depending on how the program is structured). On the other hand, if you're at an EM program with good peds and IM people, then you can learn a lot more from them. So it's a mixed bag.

You'll also see a heavy regional bias. The thread above lists only east coast programs as the 'top' pediatric programs, but University of Washington, OHSU, and Colorado are all also top programs, they just tend to recruit more from the west coast, so it's more difficult to match there if you go to an east coast school (which by the numbers, more people do). And there are lots of reasons for people wanting to go to less well known programs (couples matching, wanting to be close to family, wanting to be in a smaller program, etc), so just because they aren't going to a well known program doesn't mean that they aren't capable of doing so.

 

[yoyohomieg5432]

Exactly. Some of the best FM and EM programs are lesser known, because they don't have to compete with the well known IM and surgery programs. Depending on what your goals are when you ultimately go into residency, you may want to train at a more unopposed program, because you get to do more, and you have to figure out how to do more with less (depending on how the program is structured). On the other hand, if you're at an EM program with good peds and IM people, then you can learn a lot more from them. So it's a mixed bag.

You'll also see a heavy regional bias. The thread above lists only east coast programs as the 'top' pediatric programs, but University of Washington, OHSU, and Colorado are all also top programs, they just tend to recruit more from the west coast, so it's more difficult to match there if you go to an east coast school (which by the numbers, more people do). And there are lots of reasons for people wanting to go to less well known programs (couples matching, wanting to be close to family, wanting to be in a smaller program, etc), so just because they aren't going to a well known program doesn't mean that they aren't capable of doing so.

thanks for the info. and thanks to kind of blue too

does "prestige" of your residency really matter though? in the end you're still a doc regardless of what residency you go to. i don't think patients down the road will ask what residency program you were in before you can treat them. does it just open up more employment opportunities or something?

 

[circulus vitios]

thanks for the info. and thanks to kind of blue too

does "prestige" of your residency really matter though? in the end you're still a doc regardless of what residency you go to. i don't think patients down the road will ask what residency program you were in before you can treat them. does it just open up more employment opportunities or something?

If you want to go into academics, it makes a difference.

 

[Espadaleader]

I know this is almost blasphemous, but I disagree with Nick Naylor. Match lists are the only really quality metric you have to judge a school. Most schools are biased toward specific locations or programs. Also top programs are very incestuous. Also it absolutely matters where you to to residency if you want to do fellowship because you need research.

 

[Ismet]

Match lists are the only really quality metric you have to judge a school.

Absolutely false.

 

[yehhhboiii]

I know this is almost blasphemous, but I disagree with Nick Naylor. Match lists are the only really quality metric you have to judge a school. Most schools are biased toward specific locations or programs. Also top programs are very incestuous. Also it absolutely matters where you to to residency if you want to do fellowship because you need research.

thanks for the perspective premed

 

[circulus vitios]

Absolutely false.

thanks for the perspective premed

Then what are good metrics?

 

[NickNaylor]

I know this is almost blasphemous, but I disagree with Nick Naylor. Match lists are the only really quality metric you have to judge a school. Most schools are biased toward specific locations or programs. Also top programs are very incestuous. Also it absolutely matters where you to to residency if you want to do fellowship because you need research.

But there are many assumptions with this approach:

-You're going to want to go a "top program"
-You want to end up in the location of the school you're going to
-You want to do a fellowship

It's impossible to even begin contemplating these things seriously until you get well into med school. That's why trying to choose a med school based on factors like these is silly. Things like cost, location, grading scheme, random other curricular details (required class, structure, etc.), among other things are, in my view, way more important and will actually have an impact on your education and training. The match list does not - at least not in a way that you can accurately evaluate. But again, do what makes you happy. Even if you don't agree you should appreciate that, at best, you're shooting in the dark in terms of knowing what a "top program" is and whether a particular match list actually says anything about the school for the reasons already mentioned.

 

[yehhhboiii]

Then what are good metrics?

it's hard to say
if you see several people matching ortho or urology, that means that you have people who did well on step 1. how much of it is because their school is great and how much is due to the fact that these students are smart and hard working?
if you see someone matching gen surg at stanford, is that where they actually wanted to go or are they there because they couldn't get the ent residency they wanted?
if you see someone matching into alabama for anesthesia or iowa for internal med, would you be impressed? because those are top programs in those fields
i mean yeah if you see a bunch of people matching into johns hopkins or harvard that's great. but keep in mind that not all the programs at famous hospitals are good ones

personally i think that price is the most important thing if you're taking out loans. pedigree is nice and helps a lot but i think it's more prudent for the future to not be saddled with debt. who knows if i'd be saying that if i was at harvard? i'll probably think differently when i'm applying for residency. but i've heard some physicians from ivy league schools say that they wish they went to a cheaper school. it's easy to say after all's said and done. but with tuition near 50k and interest rates at 6, 7% and rising, cost is a very important consideration. mandatory attendance (the less, the better), quality of life issues (location, cost of living, student body, proximity of family) and things like that are also good to consider
don't worry about stupid crap like pbl (although less is better imo)

 

[Plecopotamus]

I agree that it's not a great metric, b/c now that I'm in the middle of residency applications, I realize how likely I am to rank some of the less competitive programs on my list highest b/c I really don't want to relocate & b/c I want my partner to be able to have a job in his unusual field of work.

If you could see where they were interviewed, it would give you much better insight than where they ultimately matched.

 

[circulus vitios]

it's hard to say
if you see several people matching ortho or urology, that means that you have people who did well on step 1. how much of it is because their school is great and how much is due to the fact that these students are smart and hard working?
if you see someone matching gen surg at stanford, is that where they actually wanted to go or are they there because they couldn't get the ent residency they wanted?
if you see someone matching into alabama for anesthesia or iowa for internal med, would you be impressed? because those are top programs in those fields
i mean yeah if you see a bunch of people matching into johns hopkins or harvard that's great. but keep in mind that not all the programs at famous hospitals are good ones

personally i think that price is the most important thing if you're taking out loans. pedigree is nice and helps a lot but i think it's more prudent for the future to not be saddled with debt. who knows if i'd be saying that if i was at harvard? i'll probably think differently when i'm applying for residency. but i've heard some physicians from ivy league schools say that they wish they went to a cheaper school. it's easy to say after all's said and done. but with tuition near 50k and interest rates at 6, 7% and rising, cost is a very important consideration. mandatory attendance (the less, the better), quality of life issues (location, cost of living, student body, proximity of family) and things like that are also good to consider
don't worry about stupid crap like pbl (although less is better imo)

If you were aiming for a competitive specialty, you would go to Marshall at in-state tuition over Drexel because Marshall is significantly cheaper, even though Marshall is overwhelming primary care and Drexel has a a large amount of competitive specialty matches?

 

[Lya]

I agree that it's not a great metric, b/c now that I'm in the middle of residency applications, I realize how likely I am to rank some of the less competitive programs on my list highest b/c I really don't want to relocate & b/c I want my partner to be able to have a job in his unusual field of work.

If you could see where they were interviewed, it would give you much better insight than where they ultimately matched.

Is there anywhere online that we can see where people got interviewed?

 

[Mr Avante]

Is there anywhere online that we can see where people got interviewed?

nay

 

[Ismet]

If you were aiming for a competitive specialty, you would go to Marshall at in-state tuition over Drexel because Marshall is significantly cheaper, even though Marshall is overwhelming primary care and Drexel has a a large amount of competitive specialty matches?

Did you read the part of his post that said there are many other factors to consider? 🙄

 

[airplanes]

This is a good thread because it highlights something very important about medical school, which is the concept that for all intents and purposes, it's really just a stepping stone to residency. There is too much talk in pre-allo about class schedules, IBM, clinical exposure as a 1st year, etc, etc. that this gets lost in the shuffle.

A school's match list really has the potential to be an important piece of information, if interpreted correctly, for several reasons:

1) You can use it to gauge if a school is primary care or specialty oriented. Use that information according to whatever your personal preference may be. There are fine med schools that lean either way and recruit applicants who tend to lean either way.

2) Regional ties. Some med schools send students far and wide, while others tend to have their students hang around the same region. Again, use that information accordingly.

3) Say you're interested in a few specific fields. See where med students matched, was it all over the country at places you can recognize? At the very least, that probably bodes well.

This is why trying to judge a match list is a useless endeavor.

Disagree for the reasons listed above. In the right context and viewed through the correct lens, it can certainly be much more than a "useless endeavor."

 

[dismorfik]

When I was applying to med schools a mentor told me to look at the Internal Medicine and Surgery matches and ignore the rest. Some of the previous posts have alluded to this too.

 

[NickNaylor]

Disagree for the reasons listed above. In the right context and viewed through the correct lens, it can certainly be much more than a "useless endeavor."

Definitely agree. Unfortunately I don't think the average applicant is spending the time to do what you mention, which is this issue. Even on your list, though, #2 and #3 are so subject to bias that it would be hard to gleam useful conclusions from it. #1 I can see but the issue of bias still persists. I think it may be a little more helpful if applicants got access to serial data to see trends, but obviously that usually isn't available (at least easily). Then you can actually get an idea of what the school is actually producing.

 

[volcomx]

Instead of looking at match lists, how do you guys feel about the USnews "residency director rating?" It seems like this is what you guys are trying to glean out of the match list.

 

[yehhhboiii]

If you were aiming for a competitive specialty, you would go to Marshall at in-state tuition over Drexel because Marshall is significantly cheaper, even though Marshall is overwhelming primary care and Drexel has a a large amount of competitive specialty matches?

i dont know
honestly ive never even heard of marshall until just now so probably not
but match lists can change from year to year
you can have 7 people go into dermatology one year and then none the next
each class can be very different and it depends on the aggregate of individuals that make up the class

 

[mcloaf]

In the right context and viewed through the correct lens, it can certainly be much more than a "useless endeavor."

Unfortunately I think what actually happens is that people just go through the lists and count the number of times they see "Plastics" "Dermatology" and "MGH."

 

[CarlosDanger]

Yeah, also wondering about the residency directors rating. Seems like it could be telling depending on whether they get a good sample

 

[airplanes]

Unfortunately I think what actually happens is that people just go through the lists and count the number of times they see "Plastics" "Dermatology" and "MGH."

That's why a thread like this can be helpful 🙂

 

[roundza]

im not sure if this is the rule- but i usually look for specialties in which I am interested and see if anybody/how many people placed in residencies that match my interest. I think what this can tell you is where students found good mentorship and which rotations were enjoyed most by the students there. This information is important to me because it implies (doesn't prove)

1) strong mentorship in my area(s) of interest
2) good advising/support for that area
3) the rotation for that specialty was a positive experience for thes however many students

yet i take all of this with a grain of salt and ultimately i don't think it's a big enough factor to drastically alter my choice if i have one.