Just Curious

[fourthyearmed]

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As a fourth year medical student at a state school, I am curious why everyone on this site is so obsessed with getting into a "top tier" school like Harvard or Hopkins. How could it possibly be worth taking a year off after college to do research or post-bacc work to improve your application for Hopkins when you could easily get in your state school and get on with your life? We spend so much of our lives in school and everyone's going to be a physician in the end no matter where you went to school. We all take the same USMLE tests, all medical schools pass the same accredidation standards, and we will all get a residency spot somewhere. To all of you with average MCATs and GPAs, I wish you luck. You will be great doctors one day if you never give up!

 

[Radio Edit]

my guess is these students feel the only way theyll develop their cures for cancer is through a top tier school. no superstar of medicine ever came from a school of any lesser caliber, right??? 🙄

 

[ambrosia]

I'd be happy to go anywhere (thats in the US...no islands for me) 🙂

 

[Dr Dean]

my guess is these students feel the only way theyll develop their cures for cancer is through a top tier school. no superstar of medicine ever came from a school of any lesser caliber, right??? 🙄

You have to be a gunner to cure cancer. ROAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

 

[morganlefay]

Hi fourthyearmed,

Sorry to jump on you already with a question, but anyone who's gotten thru this whole mess is a potential advisor. 😉 Being that I have a good GPA (3.6), good research experience, two publications, lots of good EC's, etc....BUT an MCAT of 26 from April (retook Aug 04), what do you think about my getting into places like Wake Forest, Loyola, Emory? Or even U of Virginia or Penn State? I'm actually NOT all about the "top tier", but do want to know where I stand. If you can answer, please do. If not, don't worry about it. 🙂

Thanks a bunch!

 

[jhrugger]

some people may just want the pedigree, others may genuinely want the connections and opporunities that you get from going to such "powerhouses" in medicine. i think, though, that more people choose the big Hs so that they can say (or at least think) "i know what i'm talking about, i went to Harvard/Hopkins/etc.. med"

 

[Haybrant]

As a fourth year medical student at a state school, I am curious why everyone on this site is so obsessed with getting into a "top tier" school like Harvard or Hopkins. How could it possibly be worth taking a year off after college to do research or post-bacc work to improve your application for Hopkins when you could easily get in your state school and get on with your life? We spend so much of our lives in school and everyone's going to be a physician in the end no matter where you went to school. We all take the same USMLE tests, all medical schools pass the same accredidation standards, and we will all get a residency spot somewhere. To all of you with average MCATs and GPAs, I wish you luck. You will be great doctors one day if you never give up!

lotta people taking that year off are genuinely interested in research; im in cancer research and feel im learning an incredible amount and assisting in translational changes. You're real question should be, why are you so deluded with 'getting on with your life.' You cant really be in that kind of mentality and even begin to consider why people are interested in good research schools...

 

[Innocent Girl]

As a fourth year medical student at a state school, I am curious why everyone on this site is so obsessed with getting into a "top tier" school like Harvard or Hopkins. How could it possibly be worth taking a year off after college to do research or post-bacc work to improve your application for Hopkins when you could easily get in your state school and get on with your life? We spend so much of our lives in school and everyone's going to be a physician in the end no matter where you went to school. We all take the same USMLE tests, all medical schools pass the same accredidation standards, and we will all get a residency spot somewhere. To all of you with average MCATs and GPAs, I wish you luck. You will be great doctors one day if you never give up!

That's just the way a lot of us premeds are. Gunners.

 

[aparecida]

I think these are a lot of good questions. I'm a little baffled why the "best" schools seem to be only interested in research. I don't understand what's wrong with training people to be really excellent, skilled doctors, but for some reason prestige equals research.

I don't know. The idea of doing research bores me stiff, but I'd still be happy to go to a school with the most progressive programs, best faculty, whatever ... but I'd also be happy to go to a state school. I agree that, largely, med school is med school. Premeds aren't very good at relaxing, though. 🙂

 

[fourthyearmed]

real question should be, why are you so deluded with 'getting on with your life.' You cant really be in that kind of mentality and even begin to consider why people are interested in good research schools...

I consider "getting on with my life" to be becoming a practicing physician as soon as possible. The sooner I can start the better. If this is deluded, so be it. I consider it acheiving my goal. I just wanted to point out to everyone that Harvard and Hopkins are not the only way to becoming an excellent clinical physician. The top ranked schools are mostly top ranked because they have loads of research money. This is great for those of you planning on doing research. I just didn't want all the pre-meds on this site to get discouraged with all these posting about getting into top schools.

 

[W222]

I wonder the same thing as the original Poster. It seems like people are all over going to a top-tier school and dont realize the importance of just getting in. It seems like these folks are just lost.

 

[Treg]

but for some reason prestige equals research.

This is because prestige really equals big time funding, and funding comes from research. For every research grant a lab receives, the university receives a cut from which they can do what they want. This gives the $$ for equipment, facilities, etc. that attract good doctors and lots of patients, which of course equals more $$ for the school. It's all about the bottom line.

Treg

 

[principessa]

As a fourth year medical student at a state school, I am curious why everyone on this site is so obsessed with getting into a "top tier" school like Harvard or Hopkins. How could it possibly be worth taking a year off after college to do research or post-bacc work to improve your application for Hopkins when you could easily get in your state school and get on with your life? We spend so much of our lives in school and everyone's going to be a physician in the end no matter where you went to school. We all take the same USMLE tests, all medical schools pass the same accredidation standards, and we will all get a residency spot somewhere. To all of you with average MCATs and GPAs, I wish you luck. You will be great doctors one day if you never give up!

I had several reasons for choosing a top tier school. In no particular order:

- I want to have classmates who will challenge me.
- I don't want to be confined to a particular geographical area.
- Yes, we will all get a residency spot somewhere, but students from top tier schools have better chances at the most competitive residency spots.
- I'm interested in lots of things besides clinical practice - research, public health, writing, international health, etc., and I'd like to go to a place where I could explore these options.
- I would probably be happiest in an academic setting, and I'm more likely to end up in an academic setting if I go to a top tier school.
- I don't think I would be completely happy at either of my state schools. I am so excited about going to Yale, and I don't think I would feel this way if I were on my way to either of my state schools right now.
- If I had gone to a state school I could not have gone to school near my fiance. He's getting a Ph.D. and the best programs for him are out of state.

I didn't have to take a year off or do a post-bacc to get into any of the schools that accepted me, and if things had been different and my application hadn't been strong enough for the top tier schools, I would have attended one of my state schools, because like you say, we're all going to be physicians in the end. But when you have the opportunity to attend a top tier school and you feel the education there is worth the extra money, what's wrong with going for it?

 

[KNightInBlue]

As a fourth year medical student at a state school, I am curious why everyone on this site is so obsessed with getting into a "top tier" school like Harvard or Hopkins. How could it possibly be worth taking a year off after college to do research or post-bacc work to improve your application for Hopkins when you could easily get in your state school and get on with your life? We spend so much of our lives in school and everyone's going to be a physician in the end no matter where you went to school. We all take the same USMLE tests, all medical schools pass the same accredidation standards, and we will all get a residency spot somewhere. To all of you with average MCATs and GPAs, I wish you luck. You will be great doctors one day if you never give up!

Different people have different priorities. For you, it might have been getting into med school regardless of which school it is. For others, it could be a matter of prestige or chances at a better shot for competitive residencies (look at stanford for example, P/F all 4 years so noone has to kill him or herself to get top grades for good residencies).
You dont see them asking "Why do people think its ok just to get into a state school? Dont they realize the better prospects they have of attending a top 10 school?

2 key phrases from your post jump out - "We are all physicians in the end" and "we all get residencies somwhere". For you, that could be plenty sufficient, but for someone else, it might not. They may have a specific specialty/residency in mind and prefer to work on it from the beginning at a place that gives them the optimum chance for achieving that specialty/residency.

And no, I am not saying one is guaranteed a perfect future by attending a top 10 or 20 or whatever. Point is - "different strokes for different folks".
They dont crap on your ideas, so why crap on theirs?


That being said, I am prepared to cut off my left nut for a spot at my state school 🙂

 

[morganlefay]

Yzia,

You're right....I'm just saying that I am not gunning for a top school, just a nice one.

 

[fourthyearmed]

But when you have the opportunity to attend a top tier school and you feel the education there is worth the extra money, what's wrong with going for it?

Absolutely nothing! I totally agree with going to the best school you can. As for being challenged by your classmates, don't worry that will happen wherever you go! I am not advocating not trying to get into the best school possible. Everyone should live up to their potential. I am simply pointing out that just because you don't have the numbers to get into Hopkins, it doesn't mean you can't still become a great doctor.

 

[principessa]

Absolutely nothing! I totally agree with going to the best school you can. As for being challenged by your classmates, don't worry that will happen wherever you go! I am not advocating not trying to get into the best school possible. Everyone should live up to their potential. I am simply pointing out that just because you don't have the numbers to get into Hopkins, it doesn't mean you can't still become a great doctor.

I agree. I wish that more people would be happy with what they have accomplished, rather than beating themselves up for not doing as well as they would like. But keep in mind, a lot of people on here have really great applications and I think most of the ones you see going for Hopkins and the like have pretty good chances of getting in. Also, I know some people like to have their "reach" schools, but would really be just as happy at their state school.

 

[fourthyearmed]

And no, I am not saying one is guaranteed a perfect future by attending a top 10 or 20 or whatever. Point is - "different strokes for different folks".
They dont crap on your ideas, so why crap on theirs?

You know, I was just trying to give some encouragement to those of you out there with less than perfect MCATs and average resumes. If I had seen this website when I was a pre-med I would have been scared out of my mind and possibly given up on my dream of becoming a doctor. But I didn't give up and in about 9 months I'll have an MD after my name. To me, this is amazing and in a few short years many of you will be in my place. I'm sorry if some of you took my post as an insult. I just wanted to give some encouragement to the ones of you who were like me when I was in college. Good luck to everyone.

 

[morganlefay]

Wait, what do you mean? That the applicant you know doesn't know what he/she's getting into? 😕

OK, just wanted to know if my perception of Loyola was skewed because I know a completely incompetent, and incapable of dealing with stress/pressure, applicant who was accepted there.

They don't know what they are getting into!

 

[hy2026]

I think it is good that some people are very ambitious. I mean you live only once anyway, why not try to get into the great schools?

(I personally am not dying to go to those schools. I am not going to lie, I would love to go to any top schools, but I would not repeat another year to get into Harvard, Yale...etc. I would be happy 100% if I get into any medical school, and would be happy 105% if I get into the top schools)

However, you are absolutely right, we sometimes surround ourselves with such superficiality that we forget the important things.

 

[hy2026]

I am prepared to cut off my left nut for a spot at my state school 🙂

What kind of school accepts left nut, only? They always come in pairs, don't they? 🙂

 

[morganlefay]

Ah-ha. Well then, I have no idea...I guess I'll have to see what they think of me....
I still think it's a good school....but you never know til you visit. 🙂

 

[Mumpu]

I'm down with you, 4th (MS3 here). I have a lot of friends in top-tier schools and I'm yet to hear something really compelling. What I do hear about are rigid old-fashioned rounds, severe pimping, cut-throat competition, obscene workloads, huge egos among both classmates and attendings, classes full of gunners, etc. Oh, and let's not forget about a $200,000+ debt. I'm expecting to come out at around $80k including college loans.

What will make you an excellent doctor is not the name of the school in your diploma, the research budget, or the shininess of the new campus buildings. It's the effort you will put into learning to talk to patients, learning physical exam skills, and learning about medicine. You can go to the worst school in continental US and come out a better physician than the #1 graduate from Harvard.

 

[thegenius]

I think these are a lot of good questions. I'm a little baffled why the "best" schools seem to be only interested in research. I don't understand what's wrong with training people to be really excellent, skilled doctors, but for some reason prestige equals research.

I don't know. The idea of doing research bores me stiff, but I'd still be happy to go to a school with the most progressive programs, best faculty, whatever ... but I'd also be happy to go to a state school. I agree that, largely, med school is med school. Premeds aren't very good at relaxing, though. 🙂

I agree with you (and fourthyearmed) ... I have no desire to go into research. I definitely want to get on with my life. I am 30, and the reason why I want to go into medicine (among other reasons) is to work with others in the health care field and to treat patients. I'm not going to stick around in academica - and I really don't care about the prestige that comes with going to Harvard, Hopkins, Michigan, etc.

However, that being said, I am only going to apply to MD schools, I don't want to become a DO. To me there is a stigma with being a DO, and it's a direct reflection of those who I work with, not those who I'll be treating (plus my dad is an MD, my uncle is an MD, and a few of my best friends are all MDs).

Maybe that makes me snobbish. It probably does actually.

 

[jhugti]

I'm down with you, 4th (MS3 here). I have a lot of friends in top-tier schools and I'm yet to hear something really compelling. What I do hear about are rigid old-fashioned rounds, severe pimping, cut-throat competition, obscene workloads, huge egos among both classmates and attendings, classes full of gunners, etc. Oh, and let's not forget about a $200,000+ debt. I'm expecting to come out at around $80k including college loans.

What will make you an excellent doctor is not the name of the school in your diploma, the research budget, or the shininess of the new campus buildings. It's the effort you will put into learning to talk to patients, learning physical exam skills, and learning about medicine. You can go to the worst school in continental US and come out a better physician than the #1 graduate from Harvard.

I see your point here, and I think it makes a lot of sense with SOME medical careers. However, medicine today is an incredibly changing field, and there are far too many questions and problems left to be answered to say that "learning to talk to patients, learning physical exam skills, and learning about medicine" are sufficient in a medical education.

I definately think there's soemthign to be said about the investigative bent of mind that training at a top institution produces- if only because those around you (peers and professors) are that way. For that matter, some very clinical fields (I'm thinking here of surgical specialties) require research work in the residency to build those kinds of approaches to problems. I'm not saying that a state school won't give you a good education, but there's a reason why a place like Hopkins/Harvard is singled out to treat the rarest/most difficult/most challenging cases in the world- environments like that build physicians with different skill sets.

 

[Freakingzooming]

I agree with a lot what you post 4thyear- it's just I personally believe when someone has something they will always want more. It's just something you can't stop and sure we can rationalize it and talk about it like oprah would do but it won't change the fact taht some people will have something and some people want their thing.

for me i would kill to get into my state school or any school. I sometimes lie at night and think, what if I dont get into any school. I'm not afforded the chance to be choosey and think oh maybe a year off and I can get into Harvard.. it's maybe a year off and I can get into a school, period.

 

[thegenius]

You know, I was just trying to give some encouragement to those of you out there with less than perfect MCATs and average resumes. If I had seen this website when I was a pre-med I would have been scared out of my mind and possibly given up on my dream of becoming a doctor. But I didn't give up and in about 9 months I'll have an MD after my name. To me, this is amazing and in a few short years many of you will be in my place. I'm sorry if some of you took my post as an insult. I just wanted to give some encouragement to the ones of you who were like me when I was in college. Good luck to everyone.

And I think that is fabulous. I really don't know if I'll ever get into med school (science GPA 3.5, MCAT ~30 but I really don't know becuase I took it a week ago).

Something to consider - I have been out of academics for the past 6-7 years. Given that, and given that I've worked in the industry (in the .dot come era for technology) I have found that the environment you are in begets your desires. Coming straight from undergrad I understand why everyone wants a Top 10 school because for the last 4 years of your life you spent it doing school stuff. All you do is school. So you want to go to the best medical school.

In my opinion it's not that important what school you go to. At least, since I've been out of it, it really doesn't impact me. I'm on the hiring/recruiting board at my software company and I have interviewed probably over 40 potential software engineers in the past 6 months, all with varying educational backgrounds. Their background rarely is a deciding factor, in fact I basically don't consider it.

I know it's not the same thing - but as long as I feel mid-tier medical schools can prepare me as well as top tier medical schools, then it doesn't matter to me where I go from a prestige perspective.

 

[dr.z]

Where ever I get in I'll be happy with it. I'll be a doctor anyways. Where ever I am, if I work had enough I think I can reach what I want.

My friend who is a faculty (M.D./Ph.D) told me this:
Ques: What do you call a person who goes to the worst medical school in the nation and graduates last in his/her class?

Ans: Doctor!

 

[Medikit]

Get me into a UC and I will be all smiles