Just starting out, Age 33

[TxRxtech]

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Hi folks,

Just looking for a little feedback here. I've always wanted to work in Pharmacy. I don't have a preference of Clinical or Retail. I'd like both situations. Here's my info, age 33, have two little boys aged 4 and 10. I currently work fulltime to support both children and my wife who stays home with them. I work for a MAJOR telecom company in the U.S. that pays for me to go to school one day a week for two classes related to a telecomm degree but also includes classes that required pre-req's to get into the Mass College of Pharmacy.

The Mass College of Pharmacy program in Worcester states it does not require a BS but does require all Pre-Req's which is fine. They also state they look for the pre's to be completed in a 4yr institution, so I will be transfering my credits to Prov. College or RIC. Im starting Bio 1 and Chem 1 at night at CCRI, and looking to finish the rest of my pre's at night at either of the previous mentioned four yr colleges. All of which will be paid by my current employer, which is great!

My plan is to do very well at night classes, then apply at MCPH in Worc for their 2-3yr accelerated program. I would then retire from my current employer and live off my 401(k) for the duration of schooling in worcester.

Sound like a plan? Let me know what you think!

Thanks, Josh😀

 

[Peyemp24]

The only flaw in your logic is the problem of not being able to collect on your 401k until 59 and a half. Unless, of course, you borrow against it in which case you'll have to pay that money back, often with penalty. If you can swing it though, do it. You're never too old. I am 30 and just got in to pharmacy school this year. Do well on your pre-reqs. Apply early, and hope like hell the adcoms like you.

 

[TxRxtech]

Thanks for the input! A little new, what are the adcoms?

 

[justjack]

Thanks for the input! A little new, what are the adcoms?

short for admissions committee

 

[TxRxtech]

I see! Why? Are they particularly hard to impress? This adcom would be to enter pharm school?

 

[Karmapharmer]

Work hard in your classes and you'll do fine - adcoms are likely to appreciate your situation and determination.

But using your 401K?! Forget that plan, after taxes and penalties you'll have wasted nearly 25% of it. Use a combination of loans and old reliable tightwad spending for the 4-yrs in school. If you think your family won't put up with that, classes and adcoms are not going to be your biggest hurdle.
Good luck!

 

[weetzie00]

I see! Why? Are they particularly hard to impress? This adcom would be to enter pharm school?

Well they are the people who pick whether or not you're accepted. You need to stand out among the thousands of people that apply. Accelerated programs are very competitive and adcoms look for highly qualified applicants for them. Not only should you do well on your pre-reqs but on your PCAT and interview and have good pharmacy experience, extra curiculars, recommendations, and a strong personal statement.

 

[PonderingChoice]

How much do you make now, and how much can you expect to make in the future? When you finish your Pharm.D. you're going to be like 38 or 39. The 100K/yr. salary is greatly reduced after taxes, more like 70K, and pharmacy school can easily cost 120K + your lost work salary during 3 or 4 years. I'd run the numbers, taking into account raises, taxes, and the cost of loans, before I do this. Since you say you don't have a B.S. this might make financial sense, but it depends on how much you're making now, and what you'll cap out at. Mind giving me some rough figures?

 

[TxRxtech]

Ponderingchoice: Here's the jist, I currently make 65k working outside for a telecom co. WITH overtime I make 90-100k. But thats talking about 15hrs overtime per week. BUT with the way technology is changing and the way the management has been treating us, I have decided thats it! Ill have them pay for me to get the most education I can get while im still on their dole. Ive searched deep within and decided to go the pharm route, (1) because i've always dreamed of doing it, (2) IM TIRED OF WORKING OUTSIDE FOR 65-70hrs a week to make 100k!

I understand it costs to go to pharm school, but with my company paying for my pre-req's.... i see it as a win win situation.

Besides! I love science!

 

[UES Girl]

Ponderingchoice: Here's the jist, I currently make 65k working outside for a telecom co. WITH overtime I make 90-100k. But thats talking about 15hrs overtime per week. BUT with the way technology is changing and the way the management has been treating us, I have decided thats it! Ill have them pay for me to get the most education I can get while im still on their dole. Ive searched deep within and decided to go the pharm route, (1) because i've always dreamed of doing it, (2) IM TIRED OF WORKING OUTSIDE FOR 65-70hrs a week to make 100k!

I understand it costs to go to pharm school, but with my company paying for my pre-req's.... i see it as a win win situation.

Besides! I love science!

You'll hear this a lot on this forum:

Don't do this for the money.

Granted your age and FAMILY STATUS, this really has to be a well thought mature and not a selfish decision on your part. Not something sporadic decided on a whim. Read and think about the impact it will have on your family. Read more and think about the impact it will have on you - your life will be altered drastically and so will your childrens' ( I don't know if you understand how much exactly comittment pharmacy school will be). Think about the change in your lifestyle - are you prepared to study hours per day for the next 4-6 years ?

I'm not trying to sound mean, but it sounds like you just started looking into it. And the first logical thing to do is to research as much as you can - the good and the bad, before you hop right in without knowing the full picture.

We recently just had someone drop from our class in the middle of first quarter of school. Given how each year thousands of people apply for each seat, each wasted seat means several dozens of ruined lives. I won't speculate why he dropped out, but this person was middle aged, with a family and had a well established career like yourself. This is why I think you need to think about this hard before you dedicate yourself to this path.

 

[PonderingChoice]

Just running some VERY rough numbers:

55K (current salary after taxes / future salary... though if we're including your future raises, I think this should be higher.)

70K (after taxes as a Pharm.D., similarly, this should probably be maybe 3K higher)

100K (assumed cost of pharmacy school)

30 x 55K = 1650K

25 x 70K = 1750K (okay it should maybe be more like 26 x 70K but whatever)

-100K for tuition. = 1650K on both sides. I swear I did not cherry pick these numbers. 😛

All in all, working the same hours, doing TeleCom vrs. Pharmacy: you're not going to be making any more money. Both calculations could probably produce a higher result if I was more accurate. However, you're also giving up any stock investment potential, and you might have to pay off some loans.

The pharmacy numbers become worse if you have to retake any classes, or you fail the NAPLEX. I know a friend who said a fellow pharmacy student, who was older with a kid, had to spend another year at UoP. I'm sure you think you'd work hard and wouldn't end up in the same situation - and you're probably right - but I'm sure the husband with a kid thought the same thing when he was starting out, too. I suppose my point is: there's the very real possibility that you might end up making less if you pursue pharmacy. Not much less, and if you're really going to be happier, then it'd be worth it. But given your lack of pre-requisites and pharmacy experience, I don't think you can legitimately say that you know pharmacy's the best thing ever. I mean, you haven't even had the pleasure of organic chemistry yet, right? 😉

 

[TxRxtech]

Absolutely ready study that much! While taking classes already one day a week has helped my oldest son already! I feel great when I can help him in his projects and homework. I can't say im not doing it for the money, the money IS nice. I see my current career path as unrewarding and dead end. I could possibly become unemployed in my field.

I see this as a major change, but a possitive one. A career I will enjoy, the personal satisfaction of completing the schooling, and the ability to work where I want.

I work in a union job right now and im litereally locked in a state I dont want to be in, a job im getting tired of, and I job I feel I might not have in a few years... so I make good money now, but VERY possibly, NO JOB in a few years. This is a huge change, but im sure 10yrs from now I will be a much happier person.

 

[PonderingChoice]

NO JOB in a few years.

I assume you would be able to obtain a job using your experience somewhere, somehow. Maybe you'd lose a few K. But if you honestly fear losing your job, do that over time and build up a nice nest egg. 100K/year with 15 hrs. over-time with no B.S. when you're 33 isn't a bad situation. I'm sure many English majors would love to switch places with you. 😉

Oh well, do as you will.

 

[TxRxtech]

I mean, you haven't even had the pleasure of organic chemistry yet, right? 😉

Ha, Have you had the joy of hanging a 1k foot fiber optic cable from pole to pole in a 20 degree snow storm off a ladder?

If were going to talk $$ then I'm sure i'd make out in pharmacy working 40+/- hrs vs. 65-70Hrs out in the weather at all hours. The numbers you provided were also very good thanks!!

I appreciate the input people!
🙂

 

[PonderingChoice]

Ha, Have you had the joy of hanging a 1k foot fiber optic cable from pole to pole in a 20 degree snow storm off a ladder?
🙂

No I have not. 😉

Though to be clear, my numbers were assuming normal full time (40 hours a week) and not over-time. Since you make a comparison between full-time pharmacy and over-time TeleCom, though maybe you were just referring to how conditions would be better inside a pharmacy.

 

[UES Girl]

If you are ready and determine and your motivation can't be deterred then you need advice from someone who can really understand your position and help. 🙂

Diastole is an incredibly kind, wise and helpful SDNer. He is one of those people that stand out by their desire to help. He has a family too and is a pharmacy student now. He'll be able to provide you with more guidance and wisdom than the rest of us familyless noobs.

 

[Monsterdaddy]

I say do it if it's what you want to do -- this is the case in my own situation.

I'll offer my financial advice as someone older than the OP with a family of 5 with a non-working spouse.

Do not borrow against your 401(k) plan because when you end employment you must repay all borrowed amounts. However, you can roll-over your 401(k) into a traditional IRA and take an early disbursement under the Education Exception. This means you will not pay a 10% penalty but you may pay regular income taxes on the disbursement.

Note the fact that I said may pay regular income taxes. Because you will have very little income with all your family deductions you may wind up owing nothing and even get paid by the government for your unused child tax credits. So any tax would be pretty minimal.

My plan is to use loans first and tap into my IRA as needed. According to the IRA website http://www.irs.gov/publications/p970/ch09.html loan payments are not counted against your qualified education expenses. So you can use the loans to pay the tuition, then if you run out of money you can tap the IRA penalty free for emergencies, etc.

You can also figure out the maximum amount you can withdraw from your IRA annually tax free. The child tax credit is tricky business that requires more research. Basically, there is a way to get paid the $1000/child credit if you don't need to use it but that's something I will need to figure out in 2010.

 

[TxRxtech]

thanks monster! Very good info and ideas people!

 

[cascones92]

I was almost 33 when I met one of the Dean of Admissions for the Pharmacy School I am now attending. My wife is a stay at home mom to my two sons both under 3 years of age. I was a teacher only making 37K a year and my wife was 6 months pregnant with my second son when I started taking my pre-reqs during the summer. People just don't understand it when crunching numbers and see you are no better off financially for making a career change. It makes sense for me to do it financially but the truth is I would do it even if I didn't because I have no interest devoting my time to a career I did not find rewarding. Can you do it, yes, will it be tough, you bet your ass. I remember many times heading to night class missing my family wondering if I had the strength to keep going. Now, I am thinking the same thing, just it is during the day. You will have to sacrifice what you cherish most, seeing and spending time with your family, but you can still do it. Good luck!

 

[PonderingChoice]

You found teaching unsatisfying? I ask because job satisfaction is normally one of the reasons people are drawn to teaching.

I'm always cynical when people say job satisfaction is a reason for switching careers. Now I don't want to insult retail pharmacists – I respect them, and I'm a practical person, I recognize we all have jobs to do – but are you really going to feel job satisfaction when you come home after putting up with ten hours of irate customers and insurance company bull****? When you screw up an order because you have to process so damn many? Or when some pharm. tech screws up big time, killing some lady's kid, leading to you losing your license and having to spend time in jail? (Sorry, that case bugs me. I know even good pharmacists screw up sometimes, we're human, after doing tens or hundreds of thousands of scripts in your lifetime, a mistake is going to be made. And it's not like the pharm. tech is going to be paying loads of attention – it's not their ass that's on the line.)

In the end, I think some of this job satisfaction mentality is simply a case of "the grass is always greener on the other side."

 

[Passion4Sci]

One tip for OP:

Spend some time reading the following blogs


theangrypharmacist.com
drugmonkey.blogspot.com
drgrumpy.blogspot.com

 

[SHC1984]

You found teaching unsatisfying? I ask because job satisfaction is normally one of the reasons people are drawn to teaching.

I’m always cynical when people say job satisfaction is a reason for switching careers. Now I don’t want to insult retail pharmacists – I respect them, and I’m a practical person, I recognize we all have jobs to do – but are you really going to feel job satisfaction when you come home after putting up with ten hours of irate customers and insurance company bull****? When you screw up an order because you have to process so damn many? Or when some pharm. tech screws up big time, killing some lady’s kid, leading to you losing your license and having to spend time in jail? (Sorry, that case bugs me. I know even good pharmacists screw up sometimes, we’re human, after doing tens or hundreds of thousands of scripts in your lifetime, a mistake is going to be made. And it’s not like the pharm. tech is going to be paying loads of attention – it’s not their ass that’s on the line.)

In the end, I think some of this job satisfaction mentality is simply a case of “the grass is always greener on the other side.”

+1

SOOOOO many pharmacists and dentists have told me that they would LOVE to be a teacher instead, but the pay is too low so they didn't do it. College professor was ranked number 1 or 2 in job satisfaction. While I have NEVER seen dentists or retail pharmacists ever rank on any list in job satisfaction.

The guy is obviously changing to pharmacy b/c teacher's salaries are too low, but I can't blame him...SOOOO many people would LOVE to be a teacher instead of a pharmacist or dentist if the pay was higher. That's the TRUTH no need to hide it!

 

[Peyemp24]

+1

SOOOOO many pharmacists and dentists have told me that they would LOVE to be a teacher instead, but the pay is too low so they didn't do it. College professor was ranked number 1 or 2 in job satisfaction. While I have NEVER seen dentists or retail pharmacists ever rank on any list in job satisfaction.

The guy is obviously changing to pharmacy b/c teacher's salaries are too low, but I can't blame him...SOOOO many people would LOVE to be a teacher instead of a pharmacist or dentist if the pay was higher. That's the TRUTH no need to hide it!

Agreed. Pharmacists make good money. That must be taken into consideration when thinking of it as a career; whether right out of high school or 30 something and considering a career change. Those who say they'd do it for lower salaries are only fooling themselves. The money is part of the appeal. Get over it.

 

[ajh88]

+1

SOOOOO many pharmacists and dentists have told me that they would LOVE to be a teacher instead, but the pay is too low so they didn't do it. College professor was ranked number 1 or 2 in job satisfaction. While I have NEVER seen dentists or retail pharmacists ever rank on any list in job satisfaction.

The guy is obviously changing to pharmacy b/c teacher's salaries are too low, but I can't blame him...SOOOO many people would LOVE to be a teacher instead of a pharmacist or dentist if the pay was higher. That's the TRUTH no need to hide it!

Perhaps - but I can say that I have *never* had the desire to be a teacher, even when I was making < $20K as a lab tech. Dealing with parents and other people's kids all day ("Oh, little Timmy couldn't possibly have done all the horrible things you claim - you must be a terrible teacher") - uh-uh, no way, thank you. College professor is a LOT different than teacher, IMHO too, even in terms of degree required. Different strokes for different folks.

However, as a non-traditional student who had a previous career before pharmacy school - I read an article once (don't ask me where - it was YEARS ago) that general happiness with life increases in relation to income up to a certain plateau - after that, more money does not equal more happiness. It occurs to me that the plateau was around $55K/year, but it could be +/- a few K. I've always kept this in mind when making various career choices. For me personally, I find that the amount of BS I'm willing to deal with correlates pretty well with how big my paycheck is (up to a point).

I make $15/hr right now in school - I work retail - I really love my job, otherwise no way would I have stayed for the money they pay. As for cranky customers and insurance BS - there is crap to deal with in every job (not just pharmacy) - you find the thing that works for you and go with it. I was miserable in the hospital job I had a couple of years ago - much more difficult for me to handle "attitude" from another health care "professional" as opposed to attitude from a customer who technically may not know any better. But that's just me.

To the OP - I'm 33 (turning 34 this year), and I'm half-way through my P3 year (1 year, 3 months, and 26 days until I graduate - but who's counting? 😉 ). It sounds like you've been thinking about it for awhile - some PPs have run some interesting numbers for you too. I suppose you can always undertake your pre-reqs and re-assess during that process to make sure it's what you really want. It isn't easy - I have a family too and the hardest thing is taking the time away from my daughter to study - but I know it will be worth it in the end. Best of luck to you!

 

[TxRxtech]

To AJH: Thanks ! I agree alot with your statement.

 

[JJVmom]

Have you ever worked in a pharmacy? If not, you definitely need to see how a pharmacist spends his/her day before you make such a life-changing decision. Plus, you should have some pharm experience (even if it's non-paid shadowing, volunteering...) before you apply.

How does your wife feel about making such a sacrifice? Would it be possible for her to work - even part time? I don't see how you could support your family w/out either one of you working. Don't touch your 401K! I'm only able to do this b/c my husband supports us and has great medical insurance. Good luck!

 

[wes011]

The only flaw in your logic is the problem of not being able to collect on your 401k until 59 and a half. Unless, of course, you borrow against it in which case you'll have to pay that money back, often with penalty. If you can swing it though, do it. You're never too old. I am 30 and just got in to pharmacy school this year. Do well on your pre-reqs. Apply early, and hope like hell the adcoms like you.

Can't you opt to convert your 401K into a rolled over IRA and access if you need to but you have to pay the penalty of course?

 

[wes011]

I say do it if it's what you want to do -- this is the case in my own situation.

I'll offer my financial advice as someone older than the OP with a family of 5 with a non-working spouse.

Do not borrow against your 401(k) plan because when you end employment you must repay all borrowed amounts. However, you can roll-over your 401(k) into a traditional IRA and take an early disbursement under the Education Exception. This means you will not pay a 10% penalty but you may pay regular income taxes on the disbursement.

Note the fact that I said may pay regular income taxes. Because you will have very little income with all your family deductions you may wind up owing nothing and even get paid by the government for your unused child tax credits. So any tax would be pretty minimal.

My plan is to use loans first and tap into my IRA as needed. According to the IRA website http://www.irs.gov/publications/p970/ch09.html loan payments are not counted against your qualified education expenses. So you can use the loans to pay the tuition, then if you run out of money you can tap the IRA penalty free for emergencies, etc.

You can also figure out the maximum amount you can withdraw from your IRA annually tax free. The child tax credit is tricky business that requires more research. Basically, there is a way to get paid the $1000/child credit if you don't need to use it but that's something I will need to figure out in 2010.

I should have read the entire thread before responding....these were my thoughts but didn't have all the supporting information to provide. Thanks, and I may use your stuff as well.