Just starting out...all over again. Advice?

[dzukunft]

It seems my story is nothing new...

Growing up I always had felt a draw, or calling, towards medicine. After two difficult years in the biochemistry department at Indiana University, however, I found myself switching to business. The switch was not terribly smooth, and I was forced to quickly pick up some fluff courses in order to stay full-time. Overall, I did much better in business and, as a consequence, was able to salvage my overall GPA (3.38). This, in part, enabled me to move on to seminary (grad school) where I have excelled (3.85).

In the past few months, I have felt a strong sense of calling back towards medicine. In particular, I want to spend some time in Africa, working with HIV/AIDS and AIDS-related diseases. Thus, I have pursued the next steps, such as researching post-bacc programs. Yesterday, I was accepted into UCLA's extension program for the Introductory Certificate in Science and Mathematics.

Unfortunately, I did not remember just how poor my grades in science (2.34) were for those first two years at Indiana. (My overall GPA for those semesters, however, was higher.) Hindsight, as they say, is 20/20. As I look back, I rarely studied and spent more time with friends and pursuing extra-curriculars. In short, I was immature. At 26 that has changed; I am grounded and determined.

To recap:
Science GPA: 2.34 (Yuck!)
Overall GPA: 3.38
Grad GPA: 3.85

The question, however, is thus: Is it too late? Is this a fool's errand?

At the very least, I know this is going to be a long, difficult journey. And I know I need to do the following:

+ Get A's in my post-bacc courses.
+ Crush the MCATs with a score of, at least, 30-32.
+ Develop relationships with professors and doctors.
+ Volunteer at a local hospital or clinic.
+ Be prepared for the Caribbean or a DO program.

Yet as I have spent a considerable amount of time and effort sorting through various posts on SDN, I cannot help but feel increasingly discouraged. Is this even possible? I guess I just need some practical advice and a healthy dose of encouragement. And I have a few questions, namely:

+ Do med schools look at the GPA of undergrad science courses, in addition to the overall GPA? (I am assuming this is the case.)
+ How does the GPA of a post-bacc program influence one's science GPA from undergrad? Do the new grades supplant old scores, or do they get 'thrown into the mix', so to speak?
+ Even if I do well in post-bacc studies at UCLA, will this be enough to counter my undergrad science GPA?
+ How much time should I set aside per week for clinical experience? For how long? Would a year be a good target?
+ What is the real difference between MD and DO? Are there positions available only to MDs? Is there a difference in pay grade?
+ If you go to med school in the Caribbean, can you practice medicine in the US? Are there restrictions or obstacles awaiting you after graduation?

I am sure there will be other questions, but this post is way too long already.

Doug

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[njbmd]

Unfortunately, I did not remember just how poor my grades in science (2.34) were for those first two years at Indiana. (My overall GPA for those semesters, however, was higher.) Hindsight, as they say, is 20/20. As I look back, I rarely studied and spent more time with friends and pursuing extra-curriculars. In short, I was immature. At 26 that has changed; I am grounded and determined.

To recap:
Science GPA: 2.34 (Yuck!)
Overall GPA: 3.38
Grad GPA: 3.85

It looks like you have some damage-control to accomplish. First, look at your grades in the pre-med courses that you took. If they were below B-, then do re-takes and get As. This would show recent coursework and this recent coursework would be good.

The next thing to do is take any pre-med courses that you did not take previously and get As. Again, recent coursework with good grades. You essentially need one year of general biology with lab, one year of general chemistry with lab, one year of general physics with lab and one year of organic chemistry with lab.

I would strongly recommend that you take these courses at a 4-year college if at all possible. You are doing damage control and community college while content may be great, would not work as well.

After you have taken care of the pre-med stuff, see where you stand. Your GPA if you manage to get all As in your pre-med stuff should have increased. It may not have been dramatic but your recent stuff should be excellent. Couple that with a strong MCAT (greater than 30) some good extracurricular activities and you should be in good range for medical school.

It is likely going to take you at least two years to get the pre-med coursework out of the way. Your graduate work will also help you but it won't increase your undergraduate GPA. For that, you need re-takes in the premed stuff or a post-bacc program (formal or informal).

I have seen people with far worse undergraduate GPAs, do enough quality coursework to get their GPA up enough to get accepted into medical school. Just take your time and do quality work (nothing lower than an A- and no withdrawals). Start slow and work up if you have to. There is no hurry as long as you have the quality (A-work).

If you truly want medicine, I would not give up or head off to the Caribbean etc. at this point. Work hard for what you want and keep motivated (probably the most difficult part of the process).

 

[Captain Fantastic]

1. Do med schools look at the GPA of undergrad science courses, in addition to the overall GPA? (I am assuming this is the case.)
2. How does the GPA of a post-bacc program influence one's science GPA from undergrad? Do the new grades supplant old scores, or do they get 'thrown into the mix', so to speak?
3. Even if I do well in post-bacc studies at UCLA, will this be enough to counter my undergrad science GPA?
4. How much time should I set aside per week for clinical experience? For how long? Would a year be a good target?
5. What is the real difference between MD and DO? Are there positions available only to MDs? Is there a difference in pay grade?
6. If you go to med school in the Caribbean, can you practice medicine in the US? Are there restrictions or obstacles awaiting you after graduation?
Doug

1. Yes. The application process will give the schools both your cum GPA and what's called the BCPM (biology, chemistry, physics, math) GPA.

2. The schools will receive a breakdown of your GPA by semester, too. So they'll see that your post-bacc scores separately. The post-bacc is also thrown into the mix and counts towards your cum GPA. For MD schools, repeating classes just adds to the mix. For DO schools, repeating classes replaces previous scores.

3. Yes and no. There will be some places that will screen you out, others will be more forgiving.

4. No set amount of experience is needed. You just need to demonstrate that you know what you're getting into and have experiences to back up your decision to go into medicine. Realistically, a couple hours a week for a year would be plenty.

5. There is no real difference. Now, a DO probably wouldn't be the dean of an allopathic medical school and vice-versa, but in the real world of practicing medicine they are equivalent. I personally know MDs and DOs that work side by side with the same title (Asst. Prof of Medicine) and same pay.

6. Foreign medical graduates have to jump through additional hurdles to be licensed in the US. Check out http://www.ecfmg.org for more info. This almost always means it takes longer (fifth year pathway, etc.) and FMGs are generally disadvantaged during the match.

 

[dzukunft]

As I understand it, the UCLA extension program offers fully-accredited classes in a competitive environment. That's the program I have been accepted into. (Not that it takes much...)

My exact grade breakdown - for science - follows:

Chemistry I (B-)
Chemistry I Lab (A-)
Chemistry II (B-)
Chemistry II Lab (A-)
Calculus I (B)
Biology I (C+)
Physics I (C)

Plainly, I need to retake Biology and Physics. Should I also retake the two Chemistry classes? Even though I did alright in labs, I am not very happy with my grades in lecture. Or would this just be a waste of time?

 

[njbmd]

Plainly, I need to retake Biology and Physics. Should I also retake the two Chemistry classes? Even though I did alright in labs, I am not very happy with my grades in lecture. Or would this just be a waste of time?

The better question to answer is do you need a refresher in terms of the knowledge from these classes or do you need the grades. If you need the knowledge, then audit. If you need the boost in GPA, then retake and get As.

Since your science GPA was 2.34, you likely need to retake more than just the Biology and Physics. You need to get that science GPA at least above 3.0 (the higher the better). Since most people do far better in lab than in class, your lab grades are OK but don't actually count for much other than one credit. You should be able to take the class without the lab if possible and you really need to have a solid knowledge base for the MCAT.

 

[chrisjohn]

There is no quick way to recover, and by that I mean it will take at least three years. You've received some great advice and njbmd always beats me to the punch.

Don't be discouraged, a lot of people have matriculated with grades like yours. Don't fool yourself, its going to be a lot of work, time, and dedication. If you're really set on medicine you CAN make it happen.

You wil certainly need to take all the premed courses over again, for the grades and the knowlege base for the MCAT, not to mention for medical school when you arrive. Use the search function, all your questions have been answered before.

Take it a day at a time. The whole process can be overwhelming. Do the best that you can each, rock today's quiz, test etc, and you'll get to where you want to be. Sounds hokey I know, but it works.

 

[dzukunft]

There is no quick way to recover, and by that I mean it will take at least three years.

Is there a specific reason as to why you believe this will take at least 3 years? The general advice reveals a timetable of 1-2 years of full-time study. Are you assuming I am working full- or part-time? Or do you simply believe that it will take that much coursework to raise my SGPA? (After all, that is almost enough coursework to finish a second degree!)

 

[chrisjohn]

Yep, I think a second degree in a hard science is the way to go. There are always other mitigating factors, such as sex, race, etc, but a poor GPA is difficult hump to get over. ADCOMS are looking for students that can complete the academic program and pass the USMLE exams. This is why undergraduate performance is stressed so much. So what looks better, taking few classes or completing another degree program? Degrees that are worth something don’t grow on trees or are conferred via internet programs.

Okay let’s say you need to retake all your prereq’s, that’s at least one academic year plus a summer school session, if you take general chemistry and physics concurrently. You aren’t going to be studying for the MCAT while taking these classes and most people can’t score >32 w/o some preparation. With your low UG GPA, a high MCAT score is essential, 35 is a good target.

I am just being as honest as to the amount of time required. There is also the question of why medicine. ADCOMS do consider this and it helps to have substantial hands on experience with medicine. One day during medical biochem an instructor asked those who had worked more than two years in a clinic/ER/medical research to raise their hands, and 90% responded positively. So let’s see, one year for academic classes (really probably two), at least six months for MCAT prep (three if you do it every day for two hours). Some where you need to get one year’s worth of GOOD medical experience. Keep in mind medical schools don't do rolling admissions so you get one shot a year.

I’ll reiterate that you can make it happen. It’s just a lot of work and a long process. Worth it too.

 

[dzukunft]

Just an update...

I'm back at Indiana University taking the necessary courses (starting over completely). Because IU starts its class rotation in the spring semester, I'll be able to complete all of my pre-requisites - along with a few additional upper-level biology courses - by next May. Since that last semester will have a decreased course load, I'll be able to study for the MCAT and submit my application for first-round consideration.

Since I may not be the most attractive candidate, I am fully prepared not to get in on my first try. So I'm also planning on doing IU's MS in Biology (non-thesis, pre-professional), which is geared towards those students in my position. According to the dean of the IU School of Medicine, it raises one's chances of getting into medical school from 10% to 70%. Evidently, one's grades in this MS program replace one's SGPA from undergrad because its curriculum is very similar to one's first year of medical school.

In any case, here's the report thus far...

Physics I (5) A+
Chemistry I (3) A+
Biology I (5) A
Chemistry II (3) A

That raises my sGPA to a 3.40 (old and new courses combined) and my overall GPA to a 3.441. Plainly, the GPA of recent coursework is a solid 4.0.

Moreover, I spent a semester volunteering in a clinic serving the underprivileged of Indianapolis. While that was not the best experience, I am pursuing a volunteer position in the ER at a hospital near my house. And for the fall semester, I am looking at taking the following courses:

Biology II (5) A
Organic I (5) A

All in all, I am considering this to be a roaring start and a great confidence booster. But in the words of Han Solo, "That's great kid...but don't get cocky!" My only question is whether the load for fall is too great.

Thanks for all the great advice and support thus far.

 

[dzukunft]

So I got A's in both Bio II and Orgo I.

Recent sGPA stays strong at 4.0, with my cumulative GPA getting bumped up to 3.47. It might get up to 3.49 with next semester's courses, but I don't think it's going any higher...too many GPA points (~590 to date). It's too bad...would have really liked the 3.5! (I'd have to take an additional 30 credit hours to get there, and that's just silly.)

So I guess everything depends on the MCAT now...and the supplementary materials.

As far as volunteering experience goes, I'm working in the ED. It's okay...pretty slow, really. Don't get to do much (obviously) and the docs don't really interact with me...let alone the staff. Of course, I do work nights. Guess that's to be expected. The good news is that the hospital is going to be moving me to surgery. So that should a great experience!

Still need to work on shadowing experiences. Anyone have any advice on that?

 

[dzukunft]

This semester's grade report:

Physics II (5) A+
Orgo II (3) A

With recent coursework of 4.0 quality, cum GPA has been brought up to 3.496.

I'll be spending the summer studying for the MCAT (August 26 test date) and taking Orgo II lab second summer session. To stay sharp, I'll be taking biochemistry and genetics in the autumn.

Peace out.

 

[sindadel]

Wtg!

 

[dec0y]

Nice work! But also take note that AMCAS will count your A+'s as A's (impossible to get over 4.0)

Keep up the good work!

 

[theslave]

Good job so far. Keep up the good work.

 

[flyhi]

Fabulous. i just saw this post for the first time and following your progress over the last 2 years is awesome. You haven't posted since May......would love to hear the most recent update!

 

[dzukunft]

It's funny really. I did a quick update and it looks like it didn't post. Here's the run down since May. (And, yeah, it's no longer a quick update. Oops!)

Just finished summer and fall semesters:

Orgo II Lab (2) A+
Biochemistry (3) A
Genetics (3) A

cumGPA is up to a 3.52. sGPA is at a 3.57. Yeah!

In other news, ditched the ED at both hospitals where I volunteered. Transferred to surgical services, where I have networked with over 60 surgeons in 22 specialties and amassed over 200 hours of experience in the OR alone. Seen some really cool surgeries, including the extremely rare Carotid Body Tumor Excision. Most recently invited by one such surgeon to learn alongside MSIII's and MSIV's in their surgical rotations on a weekly basis with the ortho-trauma team. I often go to M&Ms, grand round seminars and departmental conferences. Talk about a great learning experience! Moreover, I was finally able to join a research study with the IU School of Medicine. Our particular lab is exploring regenerative cell therapies in patients with Peripheral Artery Disease. Publications forthcoming. Learning a ton of useful knowledge and techniques.

Out of these experiences et al. I have been fortunate enough to garner 12 LOR from professors, attending surgeons, clinical educators and even a couple from a Chief of Surgery and CEO of a local hospital.

MCAT went okay, not as well as I had hoped. (Of course, I was aiming for a 35+!) But I have already lined up two interviews with IU and GWU in early January. Been rejected from Mayo and Georgetown, still waiting to hear back from the other 14 schools. Due to scheduling issues in the application cycle, I am going to start prepping for the MCAT again come late Janurary for April.

Currently out of cash, so my plan is to pursue some employ with a local medical device company as a sales representative while I wait for a final decision. The dark side, I know... They know my goals and timetable, so it works out.

All in all I have put in a lot of hard work and made quite a bit of sacrifice on this journey. But I've kept my nose to the proverbial grindstone, pushed myself to limits I didn't know I had and proactively pursued any learning opportunities - whenever and wherever they presented themselves. However, I also consider myself VERY BLESSED, because I was unsure if I would ever be able to pull off that first A in General Physics I. Took each class and exam as it came. Good friends and interests outside of health science carried me through. Wouldn't have come this far if there weren't other people looking out for me!

In lieu of the fact that I have yet to be accepted this application cycle, I am glad to hear that my story has impacted/inspired at least one person. I hope it will serve to encourage many more on SDN who are just starting out (all over again) and wonder whether the dream is possible. It is!

 

[theslave]

It's funny really. I did a quick update and it looks like it didn't post. Here's the run down since May. (And, yeah, it's no longer a quick update. Oops!)

Just finished summer and fall semesters:

Orgo II Lab (2) A+
Biochemistry (3) A
Genetics (3) A

cumGPA is up to a 3.52. sGPA is at a 3.57. Yeah!

In other news, ditched the ED at both hospitals where I volunteered. Transferred to surgical services, where I have networked with over 60 surgeons in 22 specialties and amassed over 200 hours of experience in the OR alone. Seen some really cool surgeries, including the extremely rare Carotid Body Tumor Excision. Most recently invited by one such surgeon to learn alongside MSIII's and MSIV's in their surgical rotations on a weekly basis with the ortho-trauma team. I often go to M&Ms, grand round seminars and departmental conferences. Talk about a great learning experience! Moreover, I was finally able to join a research study with the IU School of Medicine. Our particular lab is exploring regenerative cell therapies in patients with Peripheral Artery Disease. Publications forthcoming. Learning a ton of useful knowledge and techniques.

Out of these experiences et al. I have been fortunate enough to garner 12 LOR from professors, attending surgeons, clinical educators and even a couple from a Chief of Surgery and CEO of a local hospital.

MCAT went okay, not as well as I had hoped. (Of course, I was aiming for a 35+!) But I have already lined up two interviews with IU and GWU in early January. Been rejected from Mayo and Georgetown, still waiting to hear back from the other 14 schools. Due to scheduling issues in the application cycle, I am going to start prepping for the MCAT again come late Janurary for April.

Currently out of cash, so my plan is to pursue some employ with a local medical device company as a sales representative while I wait for a final decision. The dark side, I know... They know my goals and timetable, so it works out.

All in all I have put in a lot of hard work and made quite a bit of sacrifice on this journey. But I've kept my nose to the proverbial grindstone, pushed myself to limits I didn't know I had and proactively pursued any learning opportunities - whenever and wherever they presented themselves. However, I also consider myself VERY BLESSED, because I was unsure if I would ever be able to pull off that first A in General Physics I. Took each class and exam as it came. Good friends and interests outside of health science carried me through. Wouldn't have come this far if there weren't other people looking out for me!

In lieu of the fact that I have yet to be accepted this application cycle, I am glad to hear that my story has impacted/inspired at least one person. I hope it will serve to encourage many more on SDN who are just starting out (all over again) and wonder whether the dream is possible. It is!

Very good job! Sounds like you have spent a lot of time networking.

 

[utahjazz]

It's funny really. I did a quick update and it looks like it didn't post. Here's the run down since May. (And, yeah, it's no longer a quick update. Oops!)

Just finished summer and fall semesters:

Orgo II Lab (2) A+
Biochemistry (3) A
Genetics (3) A

cumGPA is up to a 3.52. sGPA is at a 3.57. Yeah!

In other news, ditched the ED at both hospitals where I volunteered. Transferred to surgical services, where I have networked with over 60 surgeons in 22 specialties and amassed over 200 hours of experience in the OR alone. Seen some really cool surgeries, including the extremely rare Carotid Body Tumor Excision. Most recently invited by one such surgeon to learn alongside MSIII's and MSIV's in their surgical rotations on a weekly basis with the ortho-trauma team. I often go to M&Ms, grand round seminars and departmental conferences. Talk about a great learning experience! Moreover, I was finally able to join a research study with the IU School of Medicine. Our particular lab is exploring regenerative cell therapies in patients with Peripheral Artery Disease. Publications forthcoming. Learning a ton of useful knowledge and techniques.

Out of these experiences et al. I have been fortunate enough to garner 12 LOR from professors, attending surgeons, clinical educators and even a couple from a Chief of Surgery and CEO of a local hospital.

MCAT went okay, not as well as I had hoped. (Of course, I was aiming for a 35+!) But I have already lined up two interviews with IU and GWU in early January. Been rejected from Mayo and Georgetown, still waiting to hear back from the other 14 schools. Due to scheduling issues in the application cycle, I am going to start prepping for the MCAT again come late Janurary for April.

Currently out of cash, so my plan is to pursue some employ with a local medical device company as a sales representative while I wait for a final decision. The dark side, I know... They know my goals and timetable, so it works out.

All in all I have put in a lot of hard work and made quite a bit of sacrifice on this journey. But I've kept my nose to the proverbial grindstone, pushed myself to limits I didn't know I had and proactively pursued any learning opportunities - whenever and wherever they presented themselves. However, I also consider myself VERY BLESSED, because I was unsure if I would ever be able to pull off that first A in General Physics I. Took each class and exam as it came. Good friends and interests outside of health science carried me through. Wouldn't have come this far if there weren't other people looking out for me!

In lieu of the fact that I have yet to be accepted this application cycle, I am glad to hear that my story has impacted/inspired at least one person. I hope it will serve to encourage many more on SDN who are just starting out (all over again) and wonder whether the dream is possible. It is!

Awesome job... very informative/inspirational thread. I saw your previous post before it got eaten by SDN and offered you my congratulations then too. Hopefully your hard work will pay off this year... Good luck with your interviews!

 

[dzukunft]

A quick, final update...

After two long years, this leg of my journey is quickly coming to a close. Interviews at IU and GWU went very well and have thus far garnered an acceptance to IUSM. Just goes to show that a lot of hard work, discipline, desire and perseverance will get a person a long way in this process.

For those who have been keeping up with this thread, thanks for tuning in. Moreover, I'm really thankful that my story has provided encouragement and hope to some of you. And a huge thanks to all who have provided me advice along the way.

If anyone has any questions, feel free to PM me. Otherwise, I'll see ya in Allopathic!

 

[Scottish Chap]

A quick, final update...

After two long years, this leg of my journey is quickly coming to a close. Interviews at IU and GWU went very well and have thus far garnered an acceptance to IUSM. Just goes to show that a lot of hard work, discipline, desire and perseverance will get a person a long way in this process.

For those who have been keeping up with this thread, thanks for tuning in. Moreover, I'm really thankful that my story has provided encouragement and hope to some of you. And a huge thanks to all who have provided me advice along the way.

If anyone has any questions, feel free to PM me. Otherwise, I'll see ya in Allopathic!

Congratulations! I'm just about to finish medical school and your post reminded me of my own uncertain application in 2004. Your hard work, perseverance, and your steadfast calling carried you to your goal. I'm absolutely thrilled for you. Have a blessed time in medical school - it's a lot of fun, and you'll be surprised at how well it goes for you. Looking from the back end, I hand-on-heart feel that getting in was the most challenging part.

 

[DrJosephKim]

For many non-trads, it's really about the MCAT and your personal statement. Grades are still very important, but if you get an incredible MCAT score, that will speak volumes.