Juvenile pre-trial diversion

[Maybedoc1]

Hello all,

So, 10 years ago (when I was 17) a couple of friends and I got horrifically drunk in a big parking lot one night. One of my friends decided he wanted to “break down the barriers in his life” and kicked in a small section of a plastic fence (damage was so minimal that the owner of the fence didn’t even accept our money to fix it). Eventually we were loud enough, someone called the cops, and I was brought down to the station where my dad came and picked me up. A few weeks later I met with a substance abuse counselor who determined that I didn’t have issues. I did some community service, and all was well. Never came up again.

Fast forward 10 years later, and I’m applying to medical school. A few months ago, I contacted the police department to inquire about the incident. They said that I did a diversion program for an underage drinking offense (which is not a criminal charge in my state). They said that even if I didn’t do the program, it would have been equivalent to a traffic ticket infraction. Because of this, I didn’t think that I had to say anything on my AMCAS or secondaries.

However, I just received a secondary that asked about pre-trial diversion programs. I figured I would have to say yes to this, so I went ahead and called the police station to get more details and confirm with them. This time they said that my diversion program was in response to a misdemeanor vandalism charge, not really an underage drinking offense!! They also informed me that I was read my Miranda Rights at the time, so I guess I was arrested. I was never fingerprinted, photographed, went to court, etc. (That is why I never thought I had actually been arrested.)

I’ve been panicking all day, but I’ve calmed down a little. I’m considering consulting a lawyer, but I’m not sure if I should. Speaking with the officer today, it sounded like I wasn’t actually charged with anything, but if I didn’t complete the program, I would have been. Does this sound right? I’m not sure if I understand the technicalities of diversion. She also said that it wouldn’t show up on a background check, but it may show up on a local check?

So yeah, a few questions.

• I’m hoping this won’t have too much of an effect since it was so long ago and I was a minor? I’ve gotten in 0 trouble since then, except for a speeding ticket 6 years ago.

• Was I fine saying “no” on AMCAS to the misdemeanor question? I believe I was.

• When do I have to answer “yes” on secondaries for judicial questions? If they ask for pre-trial diversion or arrest, I believe I should say yes, but what about charged? What about convicted?

• What about secondaries that I have already submitted that ask this? When I originally submitted the majority of the secondaries, I did not think that I had to answer yes to any of these questions. It was only today that I realized that I should have. I know I should have realized this earlier, but after checking with the department months ago I thought I was fine. Do I just send these schools (that ask) a quick update? Do I say that I checked in with the police department back in April, but there was a miscommunication?

• How do I write about what happened without shifting blame/making it seem inconsequential/making it seem like a big deal/etc. I don’t want it to seem like I had big issues and then saw the light, but I also don’t want to make it sound trivial. I also don’t want to seem like I’m shifting the blame to my friend, even though he was the one who decided to break down barriers.

• I ordered a Certiphi background check and I’m waiting to see if that says anything on it. I believe that I’ll have to do a more in-depth background check for residency/licensing. Is there any way I can do one of these myself to see what comes up? Will this incident cause any issues in the future with hospital rotations/licensing/etc? Since I went through diversion does it even exist outside of that specific department’s records? Again I’m not sure how diversion works.

Thank you all.

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[KnightDoc]

Hello all,

So, 10 years ago (when I was 17) a couple of friends and I got horrifically drunk in a big parking lot one night. One of my friends decided he wanted to “break down the barriers in his life” and kicked in a small section of a plastic fence (damage was so minimal that the owner of the fence didn’t even accept our money to fix it). Eventually we were loud enough, someone called the cops, and I was brought down to the station where my dad came and picked me up. A few weeks later I met with a substance abuse counselor who determined that I didn’t have issues. I did some community service, and all was well. Never came up again.

Fast forward 10 years later, and I’m applying to medical school. A few months ago, I contacted the police department to inquire about the incident. They said that I did a diversion program for an underage drinking offense (which is not a criminal charge in my state). They said that even if I didn’t do the program, it would have been equivalent to a traffic ticket infraction. Because of this, I didn’t think that I had to say anything on my AMCAS or secondaries.

However, I just received a secondary that asked about pre-trial diversion programs. I figured I would have to say yes to this, so I went ahead and called the police station to get more details and confirm with them. This time they said that my diversion program was in response to a misdemeanor vandalism charge, not really an underage drinking offense!! They also informed me that I was read my Miranda Rights at the time, so I guess I was arrested. I was never fingerprinted, photographed, went to court, etc. (That is why I never thought I had actually been arrested.)

I’ve been panicking all day, but I’ve calmed down a little. I’m considering consulting a lawyer, but I’m not sure if I should. Speaking with the officer today, it sounded like I wasn’t actually charged with anything, but if I didn’t complete the program, I would have been. Does this sound right? I’m not sure if I understand the technicalities of diversion. She also said that it wouldn’t show up on a background check, but it may show up on a local check?

So yeah, a few questions.

• I’m hoping this won’t have too much of an effect since it was so long ago and I was a minor? I’ve gotten in 0 trouble since then, except for a speeding ticket 6 years ago.

• Was I fine saying “no” on AMCAS to the misdemeanor question? I believe I was.

• When do I have to answer “yes” on secondaries for judicial questions? If they ask for pre-trial diversion or arrest, I believe I should say yes, but what about charged? What about convicted?

• What about secondaries that I have already submitted that ask this? When I originally submitted the majority of the secondaries, I did not think that I had to answer yes to any of these questions. It was only today that I realized that I should have. I know I should have realized this earlier, but after checking with the department months ago I thought I was fine. Do I just send these schools (that ask) a quick update? Do I say that I checked in with the police department back in April, but there was a miscommunication?

• How do I write about what happened without shifting blame/making it seem inconsequential/making it seem like a big deal/etc. I don’t want it to seem like I had big issues and then saw the light, but I also don’t want to make it sound trivial. I also don’t want to seem like I’m shifting the blame to my friend, even though he was the one who decided to break down barriers.

• I ordered a Certiphi background check and I’m waiting to see if that says anything on it. I believe that I’ll have to do a more in-depth background check for residency/licensing. Is there any way I can do one of these myself to see what comes up? Will this incident cause any issues in the future with hospital rotations/licensing/etc? Since I went through diversion does it even exist outside of that specific department’s records? Again I’m not sure how diversion works.

Thank you all.

Forgive me for saying this, but, given the potential consequences, it sounds like you should invest a little money and get a local lawyer involved rather than seeking legal advice from the SDN brain trust. JMHO, but honestly, if it were me, I just would not be comfortable relying on anything a bunch of strangers on the internet told me about a thing like this.

You have a bunch of really good, well thought out questions. You deserve an answer from someone who has access to all of your documentation and has some familiarity with your local PD and local laws, rather than merely a vague notion of what ought to be the case along with some knowledge of how med schools work.

 

[Maybedoc1]

Forgive me for saying this, but, given the potential consequences, it sounds like you should invest a little money and get a local lawyer involved rather than seeking legal advice from the SDN brain trust. JMHO, but honestly, if it were me, I just would not be comfortable relying on anything a bunch of strangers on the internet told me about a thing like this.

You have a bunch of really good, well thought out questions. You deserve an answer from someone who has access to all of your documentation and has some familiarity with your local PD and local laws, rather than merely a vague notion of what ought to be the case along with some knowledge of how med schools work.

I agree. I think it would be a great idea for me to consult an attorney. I have no idea how to do that though/what type of attorney. Criminal defense? Employment? I'm not sure.

Looking at my state's juvenile diversion program it looks like everything was sealed after 2 years, and that no one can access it unless I give them permission? It also explicitly says that I can answer "no" under "have you been charged with a crime." I guess that presents a grey area though in regards to medical schools. I think I should definitely talk to a lawyer to clear things up.

 

[Maybedoc1]

Forgive me for saying this, but, given the potential consequences, it sounds like you should invest a little money and get a local lawyer involved rather than seeking legal advice from the SDN brain trust. JMHO, but honestly, if it were me, I just would not be comfortable relying on anything a bunch of strangers on the internet told me about a thing like this.

You have a bunch of really good, well thought out questions. You deserve an answer from someone who has access to all of your documentation and has some familiarity with your local PD and local laws, rather than merely a vague notion of what ought to be the case along with some knowledge of how med schools work.

It turns out that my cousin's husband is a lawyer who specializes in helping healthcare providers navigate board of medicine issues.
Seems like he would be a perfect person to reach out to. Although he lives in a different state from where this incident occurred. I have no idea if that makes a difference.

 

[deleted1054719]

It turns out that my cousin's husband is a lawyer who specializes in helping healthcare providers navigate board of medicine issues.
Seems like he would be a perfect person to reach out to. Although he lives in a different state from where this incident occurred. I have no idea if that makes a difference.

Could make a difference. He likely knows who or what kind of lawyer would be a good resource in the state in question though. Definitely talk to him and see what he thinks.

 

[KnightDoc]

It turns out that my cousin's husband is a lawyer who specializes in helping healthcare providers navigate board of medicine issues.
Seems like he would be a perfect person to reach out to. Although he lives in a different state from where this incident occurred. I have no idea if that makes a difference.

It sounds perfect in that he's in the family, so hopefully he won't rip you off. He'll be familiar with the issues regarding med school and later licensing. Hopefully, he'll be knowledgeable enough to know what he's looking at when you show him you docs without needing to be an expert in your jurisdiction. It's just really dangerous to take legal advice from a cop, who invariably knows way less about the law than they think.

 

[Maybedoc1]

Could make a difference. He likely knows who or what kind of lawyer would be a good resource in the state in question though. Definitely talk to him and see what he thinks.

I reached out to him yesterday and he's helping me out. He doesn't seem to think it'll be a big deal, which is good.

 

[Maybedoc1]

It sounds perfect in that he's in the family, so hopefully he won't rip you off. He'll be familiar with the issues regarding med school and later licensing. Hopefully, he'll be knowledgeable enough to know what he's looking at when you show him you docs without needing to be an expert in your jurisdiction. It's just really dangerous to take legal advice from a cop, who invariably knows way less about the law than they think.

Yeah I reached out to him yesterday. He's not even going to charge me for his help so that's awesome! He doesn't seem to think it'll be a big deal. I'm trying to get the documentation although it seems like the state deletes most of it after three years. I'm going to call tomorrow. Yeah the first time I talked to the cops they didn't even give me the right info, which lead to me thinking it was no big deal. It was only when I called the second time that I got a more accurate story.

 

[Maybedoc1]

@Goro @gonnif @gyngyn @LizzyM

Any other advice for this situation? It looks like only 4 or 5 of my schools ask questions that I would have to say "yes" to. I'm wondering how to approach this with the schools I already submitted secondaries to. How much info do they want? How detailed/vague should I be? Will they require documentation (which might have been destroyed by now). Etc.

 

[candbgirl]

You might want to print off the actual questions on the applications for your cousin. Wording is everything and he needs to know exactly what was asked so he can correctly advise you. @KnightDoc is correct in mentioning problems down the road with licensing. Good luck and let us know what happens!

 

[Maybedoc1]

I am perplexed that if this was a misdemeanor vandalism charge (as opposed to a ticket) why werent you formally arrested and in court? who assigned you community service and pretrial diversion? how was this processed? I am purely speculating that this may have either been in family court (you were a juvenile), diverted by the prosecutor, or assigned to a social worker/case mgr/probation officer.

My question is who told you/how were you informed of requirement for community service and diversion

I was very confused about this too. I just called the department again and this is how they explained it to me. It sounds like they as a department have the ability to refer someone directly to the community diversion program instead of involving the states attorney/the courts. So I was taken to the station, they called my dad and he picked me up. They didn't fingerprint me or photograph me or anything. Then they sent it right to the diversion program itself. They didn't send anything to the state's attorney and it sounds like he/she wasn't even notified that anything happened at all? Then I met with the community diversion program and completed their requirements. After that everything was good. If I hadn't completed their requirements, then it would have been sent to the states attorney as a misdemeanor vandalism charge. The officer I spoke with said I can answer no to convicted, charged and even arrested (which I found odd) and I would be 100% truthful. However I'm a little worried about this grey area in regards to medical schools.

 

[LizzyM]

We often say, "get back to us after you have your MCAT scores". In this case, get back to us after you have your Certiphi. It sounds to me like your community has a program to keep kids like you out of the criminal justice system so that you can get on with your lives without a record.

If you do have to report to some schools, it is a case of "I did something dumb when I was under 18". Most of us have, and some us were lucky enough not to get caught. Don't sweat it. When it comes down to "would we want someone in our medical school who got drunk and kicked a fence in the 11th grade", most schools would not say "no" on the basis of that past behavior. Be reasonable, would medical licensure boards really say, "we wouldn't licence anyone who did such a thing when they were 17!" ?

 

[Maybedoc1]

We often say, "get back to us after you have your MCAT scores". In this case, get back to us after you have your Certiphi. It sounds to me like your community has a program to keep kids like you out of the criminal justice system so that you can get on with your lives without a record.

If you do have to report to some schools, it is a case of "I did something dumb when I was under 18". Most of us have, and some us were lucky enough not to get caught. Don't sweat it. When it comes down to "would we want someone in our medical school who got drunk and kicked a fence in the 11th grade", most schools would not say "no" on the basis of that past behavior. Be reasonable, would medical licensure boards really say, "we wouldn't licence anyone who did such a thing when they were 17!" ?

I'm so glad to hear that. It was a stupid mistake and I haven't done anything like that since then. I'm still waiting to hear back from Certiphi and I will see what it says. It sounds like I may be in the clear with that though. If I do have to report it to schools how much detail are they looking for? How much should I reflect on lessons learned?

 

[Maybedoc1]

The officer is correct that you werent arrested and were never formally charged. This should be referred to as "pre arrest" as as opposed to pretrial. They tell miranda warning so if later on you are formally charged it wont be thrown out via due process.
So you were a juvenile without any court record, any arrest record, it is unlikely this will be an issue.

OK it's starting to make a little more sense now. So even though I was brought to the station (in handcuffs) that night it wasn't an actual arrest? More of a "let's go to the station and call your dad." Does an "actual arrest" involve booking/fingerprinting/photographs/etc?

It sounds like it was never sent to the state attorney. In that case I'm wondering if it exists anywhere outside of the departments computers or the community diversion program (which is supposed to be destroyed after 3 years)? Maybe I'm very much in the clear unless someone were to look at that departments computers?

And for the big question. Which questions do I have to answer "yes" to? Sounds like I can say no to "convicted", as well as "charged" and "arrested"? I have a few that say "pre-trial diversion" and "diverted offenses". I'm guessing the answer would be yes to those? I understand that sometimes what is legally correct isn't always what's best answer for the med school application question. I dont want an acceptance rescinded because I tried to play in the grey areas of the law.

 

[Lasofloxabuterol]

OK it's starting to make a little more sense now. So even though I was brought to the station (in handcuffs) that night it wasn't an actual arrest? More of a "let's go to the station and call your dad." Does an "actual arrest" involve booking/fingerprinting/photographs/etc?

It sounds like it was never sent to the state attorney. In that case I'm wondering if it exists anywhere outside of the departments computers or the community diversion program (which is supposed to be destroyed after 3 years)? Maybe I'm very much in the clear unless someone were to look at that departments computers?

And for the big question. Which questions do I have to answer "yes" to? Sounds like I can say no to "convicted", as well as "charged" and "arrested"? I have a few that say "pre-trial diversion" and "diverted offenses". I'm guessing the answer would be yes to those? I understand that sometimes what is legally correct isn't always what's best answer for the med school application question. I dont want an acceptance rescinded because I tried to play in the grey areas of the law.

Take this with a grain of salt, I'm no lawyer. Since your "diversion/charge" was when you were a juvenile you did not have to disclose on your primary. As to your secondaries, you have to read the questions carefully when it comes to potential dissemination of your "diversion/charge." However, it would be best to contact a lawyer in your state to see what protections you have when it comes to disclosing juvenile "charges/actions" as most states have laws that do not require disclosure to schools as well as some other institutions. I understand being honest is best when it comes to med apps, however, you are completely within your right if you consult with a lawyer who explicitly states that you do not have to disclose because of (x) law(s) protecting juvenile offenders from disclosing their juvenile records. Hope that helps, good luck!