KCOM vs AZCOM

[waitingdoc]

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Not sure if this thread has been done before...

But what do you guys think? Both seem to be great schools, Phoenix big city and plus hometown whereas Kirksville really small but, stay for first two years only.

I'm mostly worried about rotations. During my KCOM interview they said there are many opportunities to do rotations in other states like AZ, FL, MI, etc. This I like. Not sure if AZCOM has well established rotations in AZ or other states.

Any feedback greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[irish79]

What is so wrong with leaving the state of Arizona to do rotations? To me, this seems like an advantage. I want the ability to do HOSPITAL-based rotations in other places--specifically areas of the country I might be interested in completing my residency (KCOM leaves Kirksville too). Also, there is someone in my class who has already arranged all HOSPITAL based rotations back home and has received approval from the clinical education department to do so. However, this is only the opinion of a naive first year, without the worldly experience and expertise of the all-knowing SECOND YEARS!

 

[OSUdoc08]

Do you really want to be secluded from the world in Kirksville?

Glendale/Phoenix is a great metroplex with many opportunities. The moutains and sun should be enough for a decision.

You are pretty much in the same shape for both schools----you will end up doing out of state for both, so it shouldn't be a factor.

If I were you, I'd pick the nice, new, clean, hi-tech campus of AZCOM----I mean come on----they have plasma TV's in gross anatomy lab!

 

[Eyecon82]

Do you really want to be secluded from the world in Kirksville?

Glendale/Phoenix is a great metroplex with many opportunities. The moutains and sun should be enough for a decision.

You are pretty much in the same shape for both schools----you will end up doing out of state for both, so it shouldn't be a factor.

If I were you, I'd pick the nice, new, clean, hi-tech campus of AZCOM----I mean come on----they have plasma TV's in gross anatomy lab!

I dont think you should pick a school based on mountains and the sun.....or even their technological advancements.... Is there even a correlation between high-tech schools and success? I doubt it....and plus KCOM is pretty technologically advanced as well

I would pick the school with better established rotations because that really will determine where you will match for your residency....

 

[OSUdoc08]

Residency is based on your performance in rotations, grades, recommendations, interviews, etc. If you are trying to get a residency solely based on what school you go to, then you have a priority mixup.

Plus if you are going to be stuck a few years somewhere, why not make it an enjoyable experience? You may end up at the same residency in the end, either way.

By the way, a school with better established rotations would be neither KCOM nor AZCOM-----neither is a major improvement over the other.

Either way, I don't care where my residency is, as long as I get board certified. I think it's where you go to medical school that really counts. But do you really want to do your residency in Missouri too? You'll just end up there forever. If you go all over during your rotations at AZCOM, you can look around, make your mark, and think about where you want to go--as well as make contacts at all of these places.
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Before I was accepted to OSU-COM, the only two schools I was in at was KCOM & AZCOM. I declined KCOM and took the acceptance at AZCOM. Yes, it was based on the new campus, mountains, and sun.

 

[rbassdo]

Residency is based on your performance in rotations, grades, recommendations, interviews, etc. If you are trying to get a residency solely based on what school you go to, then you have a priority mixup.

Ah yes, but...KCOM does have quite an extensive OPTI system. I have no idea what AZCOM's OPTI system is like, but KCOM has several great post-doc sites including U. of Kansas at KC, U. of Wisconsin at Madison, Medical College of Wisconsin, U. of Southern Illinois, the list goes on. This affords KCOM students quite an advantage when looking for quality residencies that are "getable."

 

[OSUdoc08]

Care to elaborate? Some don't know what OPTI is, including myself. Thanks.

 

[andrea]

Care to elaborate? Some don't know what OPTI is, including myself. Thanks.

OPTI stands for Osteopathic Postdoctoral Training Institutes. These are instituted at traditionally MD hospitals to ensure a seamless training - ie, you could do your residency at the same place you did your 3rd and 4th year rotations, if so desired. This saves a lot of money and effort, to be sure. Our dean recently stated that KCOM students get first preference at the sites associted with our rotations. They seem to take care of us.

 

[Eyecon82]

Residency is based on your performance in rotations, grades, recommendations, interviews, etc. If you are trying to get a residency solely based on what school you go to, then you have a priority mixup.

Plus if you are going to be stuck a few years somewhere, why not make it an enjoyable experience? You may end up at the same residency in the end, either way.

By the way, a school with better established rotations would be neither KCOM nor AZCOM-----neither is a major improvement over the other.

Either way, I don't care where my residency is, as long as I get board certified. I think it's where you go to medical school that really counts. But do you really want to do your residency in Missouri too? You'll just end up there forever. If you go all over during your rotations at AZCOM, you can look around, make your mark, and think about where you want to go--as well as make contacts at all of these places.
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Before I was accepted to OSU-COM, the only two schools I was in at was KCOM & AZCOM. I declined KCOM and took the acceptance at AZCOM. Yes, it was based on the new campus, mountains, and sun.

Yea i know it depends on ure grades and recommendations.....but also where you do ure rotations makes a big difference....you can get easily dicked and end up in private practices where you won't learn anything.....also by doing rotations at more prestigious learning hospitals does help you get a better residency...and widens your list of contacts....im not saying azcoms rotations system is bad...because i simply don't know...im not a studnt there.....but i was just saying that i would go to the school that offers a more established rotation system.....

I know at CCOM they have an extensive clinical rotation system set up where people rotate at rush, at cook county, olympia fields and many other well known teaching hospitals....plus its firmly established

 

[LukeWhite]

The truth: most of us 2nd years are really pissed off about how rotation set-ups are done here at AZCOM, and had we known about this sooner, we might not have come to this school.

I'm kind of amazed at the fact that people came to the school not knowing this. It's sort of the Major Feature of the school (and to good effect, in my opinion.) I just can't conceive how you could have overlooked the fact that AZCOM is preceptor-based in its rotations or missed the way these are structured.

I imagine there's a subset of students who came because of the location, and it's exactly that subset that's bitter about having to travel a bit for rotations in their last two years. Faced with that predicament, I suppose the choices are choosing a different school, attending anyway and enjoying the school's advantages, or attending AZCOM and complaining bitterly from Day 1, even before hitting a single rotation. I have a hard time believing that "most of" the second years have chosen the last option. If so, it begs the question--why did you come, and if you claim not to have known the setup, how could you have possibly not! Not to be snarky, but if you do so little research into a school that you aren't aware of one its major structural elements before signing on the dotted line for a four-year hitch, perhaps it's no surprise that you're not content with the way a rotation setup that requires motivation and research is turning out for you.

To the OP: The only two places I chose to interview were AZCOM and Kirksville; I declined all allo/osteo interview offers after those. They're both fantastic schools, but I was attracted by Phoenix and especially AZCOM's preceptor-based rotations.

In fact, it was something my interviewer at KCOM said that tipped me to AZCOM--if one wants to focus on primary care, the only way to get a comprehensive education is to have an unopposed residency. The advantage to AZCOM's preceptor setup is that you essentially have the ability to do some unopposed rotations, which you just can't get anywhere else. Even if going into a specialty, this seems to work pretty well as AZCOM's match list is spectacular despite (and I'd say BECAUSE of) its unusual rotation setup.

 

[s42brown]

First, KCOM has great rotations all over the country.
Second, Kirksville is a great place to study medicine.
Third, KCOM HAS THIRD AND FORTH YEAR ROTATIONS AT HOSPITALS IN ARIZONA.

You see, KCOM was going to open a medical school in Arizona a few years before CCOM but we were unsure of the quality of rotations that the students would get in Arizona considering the fact that U of A told us to stay out. That is why KCOM scrapped the idea and opened a dental school in Arizona. Since then KCOM has set up rotations at;

John C. Lincoln Hospital,
Mesa General Hospital,
Phoenix Baptist Hospital,
Maricopa Medical Center,
Arizona Heart Hospital,
Mayo Clinic Scottsdale,
Scottsdale Healthcare Osborn,
VA Medical Center -- Phoenix,
University of Arizona Medical Center,
Southern Arizona VA Hospital,
Tucson Medical Center,
Kingman Regional Medical Center.

If you want to look for yourself go to www.kcom.edu then to teaching and research. click on clinical rotations and scroll down to arizona.

Being the founding school gets you respect.

Want to do some great hospital rotations in Arizona go to KCOM

 

[LukeWhite]

Boomer,

Gotta say, this whole "First years don't know what they're talking about" tack got old awhile ago. Obviously it has some limited merit, but it's overstayed its welcome. I and those others who have defended the program have taken great pains not to defend it on the actual experience, which I've obviously not had, but on the merits of the setup itself.

A few examples: You complain about the travel required for rotations. I see this, for reasons that have been detailed to exhaustion in other threads, as a good thing. Our disagreement on this point will exist irrespective of actual experiences as it's not some sort of matter of personal subjective preference.

You and others have complained about the large number of primary care rotations required, with complaints that this gets in the way of applying to competitive specialties. We've compared some numbers in other threads, and this line of attack seems to be pretty sketchy in reality.

I'm a little surprised by the "you're only a first year" line of reasoning from the various MS-2's that are complaining. Now, I'm only a first year, but I could have sworn that rotations didn't start until third year. Since many of these second years apparently didn't even know about AZCOM's setup until recently, much to their very vocal shock and dismay, I'll submit that perhaps those first years who took the time who figured out what they were getting into might have a take maybe even nearly as good as theirs.

This is obviously an issue on which reasonable people can disagree, and a good thing too--there are plenty of other schools that don't have the setup, and the only people who had no choice in going here were likely the ones who were constrained by geography or academics.

I'll point out that many of us who did choose the school over others didn't just rely on the canned sales pitch, as you seem to suggest. We did our research, scanned the boards, got opinions from upperclassmen just as is going on now. So while you're certainly entitled to your opinion, and it's perhaps even reasonable given whatever criteria you're using, it's hardly some inevitable fact that we naive first years will run headlong into sooner or later. My opinon is just that, but it's an amalgam not only of common sense, but the opinions of those who have gone before and the statistics, which don't lie. I'm sure we all know who's a first year and a fourth year; hopefully the "AZCOM 2007" will sort that out for those who are still unclear.

 

[Eyecon82]

can you guys please clarify the difference in having a preceptor based rotation or not? I really have no clue

 

[irish79]

For the record, I'm a fourth year, and will be graduating in a few weeks.

What's wrong with HAVING to leave the fifth biggest city in the US to do rotations? Let me guess, you're single, and have limitless funds, right?

Well, I AM single and my parents ARE willing to "help" me out if needed, but that wasn't really the point. The point was that one could leave the FIFTH largest US city (I actually think Phx is the SIXTH) and go to cities like New York, Chicago, and Philadelphia (1, 3, 5)--where one might be able to do hospital based rotations without big brother--UA.

...several great post-doc sites...Wisconsin at Madison, Medical College of Wisconsin, U. of Southern Illinois

SIU is considered a good residency program? I was accepted to each of these schools when applying to medical school and still decided on AZCOM over them. Madison will be finishing their new med school for next year--but I didn't find University Hospital to be all that stellar of a place to do a residency (though not BAD). Most of my friends who go to school there are constantly complaining about their rotations (having to do things in small towns and outside of Madison--I guess every school has those students who only feel good when they are complaining about something). MCW is good because they have the affiliation with Froedert and Children?s--but I am not sure they are all that great either (depending on the program you are interested in I suppose).

 

[LukeWhite]

I and others have responded to all the points you're asking response to before, repeatedly, so I'll skip past all that and save everyone's time. I will make two points, though.

Your argument that the system is flawed because we should be able to do more rotations in the city but can't is really sort of silly. The school was set up with that knowledge and people attend the school knowing that, unless they really don't take the time to research.

Sure, some people may have situations that make this inconvenient. That's why there are other schools. It's not something the school keeps hidden or that's suddenly and treacherously been instituted. Most people have a choice of schools. Choosing AZCOM and then arguing that the system's lousy because one thinks it should be different from what it is is either a case of bad hindsight or just a predilection to complaining.

Perhaps it's possible that those students who are complaining about having to set up their own rotations are exactly those who don't like the idea of not having their clinical education spoonfed to them. Again, people can have different opinions on the usefulness of the setup. I'm mystified at how people can choose the school and then speak with shock and dismay at the fact that they have to play by a setup that was there long before they started.

As for the primary care, I'll repeat one more time that my defense of the program isn't based on the fact that I'm angling towards primary care. As best as I can tell, AZCOM matches in competitive specialties at a rate equal or exceeding other osteopathic schools. So the setup seems to be working pretty well for getting people where they want to go.

As I understand it, this is the same argument the deans make for keeping the blocks weighted as they are towards primary care. However, in the interest of fairness, I'll note that they're not MS-4's, and so it's more than likely they don't know what they're talking about.

 

[Boomer]

Logic loses all meaning on this site.

OUT

 

[irish79]

As I understand it, this is the same argument the deans make for keeping the blocks weighted as they are towards primary care. However, in the interest of fairness, I'll note that they're not MS-4's, and so it's more than likely they don't know what they're talking about.

ha ha, good one Luke

 

[rbassdo]

SIU is considered a good residency program? I was accepted to each of these schools when applying to medical school and still decided on AZCOM over them. Madison will be finishing their new med school for next year--but I didn't find University Hospital to be all that stellar of a place to do a residency (though not BAD). Most of my friends who go to school there are constantly complaining about their rotations (having to do things in small towns and outside of Madison--I guess every school has those students who only feel good when they are complaining about something). MCW is good because they have the affiliation with Froedert and Children?s--but I am not sure they are all that great either (depending on the program you are interested in I suppose).

Yes...these are great programs, but thanks for trying to make them look unattractive!! It's great that you had the opportunity to attend all of these schools, but the fact that you didn't does not detract from their quality. They attract high quality students, have strong research programs (esp. U of W), and are all very interested in having their M.D. residents learn OMM. After all...it should not be a trade secret.

 

[waitingdoc]

Thanks for all the feedback guys! Didn't mean to re-ignite a firestorm or anything, but it's been educational to say the least. 🙂

Looks like it's gonna be a difficult decision for me, especially being from Phoenix. Ultimately, what really matters is that I put myself in the best position possible to be happy and succeed in the long run. I haven't really decided what type of medicine I want to practice (i.e. family med vs. specialization, DO vs. MD residencies, etc.), so I just want to be at a place where I can keep my options open and receive a quality education.

I guess the original question really boils down to whether or not the differences in primarily preceptor-based vs. primarily hospital-based rotations has any significant impact on the variety and quality of residencies obtained in the future. What do you guys think?

 

[LukeWhite]

waitingdoc,

As you've seen, most any response in paragraphs is going to be open to dispute or interpretation, but I've grabbed the match lists from the last five years off our intranet so that you can get a feel for how the match compares to other schools.

http://www.kesil.com/azcom00Match.pdf
http://www.kesil.com/azcom01Match.pdf
http://www.kesil.com/azcom02Match.pdf
http://www.kesil.com/azcom03Match.pdf
http://www.kesil.com/azcom04Match.pdf

 

[rbassdo]

I guess the original question really boils down to whether or not the differences in primarily preceptor-based vs. primarily hospital-based rotations has any significant impact on the variety and quality of residencies obtained in the future. What do you guys think?

I personally like the idea of doing hospital based rotations. That way, I'll get used to working at one hospital. I'll develop relationships with hospital staff that I'll be able to more easily cultivate. I'll get to communicate with more docs in a greater variety of situations. I'm looking forward to feeling like the hospital is my second home, rather than spending one month here and one month there. I don't want to have to learn where three different labs, radiology depts., or linen closets are at three different hospitals. These are just my opinions and feelings.